Vocals in the control room question

dannygold · 15th February 2008

I'm working with a singer who has some "issues" singing with headphones. I'm going to try the control room thing next time. My understanding of hte technique from past threads is:

Mic with tight pickup pattern

Mono of essential mix elements thru control room monitors with one side phase flipped

record the mix only (no live singing) thru the same mic/position onto a separate track and phase flip THAT with the vocal to cancel out more of the bleed

My question is should the mic be setup so ithe "rejection" side is rejecting the speakers (less bleed), or should the live side be FACING the speakers so you get more of the monitors, leading to better implementation of the phase canceling effect. Both answers kinda make sense to me. I can try it of course, but I just wanted some opinions before the session.

nadumr · 15th February 2008

Although I dont know the answer and shouldn't be chiming in...

seems like the mic needs to be facing the same way for both recordings, in order for it to accurately cancel out what occurs in the recording with the vocal... so away from the speakers for both...

johnmarkpainter · 15th February 2008

I would try to figure out a way to set up one monitor for the singer in the tracking room.
A drag when you have to set your control room level and mix up just for the singer.

I've seen lots of old country dudes use a single Auratone for this.

jmp

alexkemp · 15th February 2008

i have heard of doing the 'mono nix, one speaker flipped' OR the regular mix (with vocal) and a second pass on another track (just the monitor bleed) and flipping it after the fact.... but not both! let us know if that works out!

slaves666 · 15th February 2008

I do vox in my control room, but I use a packing blanket between us to isolate from the sound, plus we both wear headphones, no mains.

Bob Olhsson · 15th February 2008

If you use something like a handheld M-88 you can just crank the mains and enjoy.

To be honest, I've never heard anybody do better with headphones than without while lots of folks do way better both intonation-wise and dynamically without phones.

dangoudie · 15th February 2008

the SE Reflexion Filter works really well to attenuate ambient sound and it barely effects what the mic hears from the direct source.
It's specifically designed for people who wanna record in their control room or in places which aren't acoustically treated.

Fletcher · 15th February 2008

We do live vocals in the control room on a pretty regular basis... we have large mains which we crank... don't bother the with "mono/phase filp" bullshit as it makes my head spin when I'm sitting at the desk.

Most often we'll use an SM-7b... but we've used all kinds of condenser mics as well... from Telefunken USA M-16's to Brauner VMX's without a struggle.

The one thing you need to do is pick a monitor volume and stick with it. That way if you need to do vocal punches the bleed from the backing tracks stays even.

Best of luck with it.

judah · 15th February 2008

Agree with Fletcher. Recorded a few vocals this week with an SM7 in the control room. Mic's null facing the monitors, average listening volume (so the singer can "get in" the songs and doesn't have to kill his/her lungs out). Minimal bleeding, much less than you might expect. Nice.

extendedplay · 15th February 2008

If you are going to try to flip phase it is important that you make sure that the mic is equidistant from each speaker. Also as Fletcher stated it will be important to have a consistent monitoring level regardless of which way you do it. The first time I did vocals with speakers instead of phones we set up in the tracking room a pair of Altec A7s, three singers around a 67 and I was impressed with the results. The additional benefit of using the setup in the tracking room is that like some of the others the speaker out of phase thing makes my head want to implode.

Steve McDonald

Bob Olhsson · 16th February 2008

This is how virtually everybody overdubbed vocals prior to 1965.

RCM - Ronan · 16th February 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

If you use something like a handheld M-88 you can just crank the mains and enjoy.

.

Yep!

Just set it up and give it a try. Bleed is much less of an issue than a lot of people make it out to be.

Bob Olhsson · 16th February 2008

Not only less of a problem, it sounds way more exciting than artificial verb and delay.

A LaMere · 16th February 2008

+1 for the sm7 and tracking live with the monitors blaring....

that's essentially why I bought an sm7, and it works REALLY well for this...

andy_simpson · 16th February 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by extendedplay

If you are going to try to flip phase it is important that you make sure that the mic is equidistant from each speaker. Also as Fletcher stated it will be important to have a consistent monitoring level regardless of which way you do it. The first time I did vocals with speakers instead of phones we set up in the tracking room a pair of Altec A7s, three singers around a 67 and I was impressed with the results. The additional benefit of using the setup in the tracking room is that like some of the others the speaker out of phase thing makes my head want to implode.

Steve McDonald

Steve, what year was that?!

I agree with Fletcher & co, clever tricks are not necessary to make this work, just record at a reasonable level.

However, if this is done in the control room it can be problematic if the vocal is monitored at any significant level.

All the overdubs - vocals, guitars, etc - on this one were done live to control-room mains.

Andy

peeceebee · 16th February 2008

For me, in my one-room-does-it-all "studio", as I cut all overdubs live with monitors in the room (just about never use headphones), the added ambience of the monitor bleed gives a lot of life that otherwise would be lacking in my bedroom-room sound...

Bob Olhsson · 16th February 2008

I did the lead and background vocals for Rare Earth's "I Just Want to Celebrate" in the control room with a hand held SM-53. It added a lot of excitement to the vocal sound.

yuppie · 16th February 2008

that's interesting, would you mute the vocal playback on monitors while recording the vocal part?

Mike Caffrey · 16th February 2008

The bleed is almost always far less than you'd imagine. Obviously, don't use an omni.

If possible, mute the click track if there is one as that's about the only bleed that you might have to get rid of.

The monitors don't have to be cranked.

You can also position the singer fairly far away.

An RE-20 was my go to for this scenario. I've bee using the PR-30 instead for the past year or so.

Bob Olhsson · 16th February 2008

The vocal was on in the mains with lotsa delayed EMT plate. It sounded awesome!

minus-sounds.com · 17th February 2008

I'd been using the MD441

andy_simpson · 17th February 2008

If your monitors have good, musical dynamics this can be the next best thing to recording the whole band live for inspired perfomances.

If you do like Bob with EMT & delay running live, you'd better like it enough to keep it!

Andy

15th February 2008	#1
dannygold Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,848 Thread Starter	Vocals in the control room question I'm working with a singer who has some "issues" singing with headphones. I'm going to try the control room thing next time. My understanding of hte technique from past threads is: Mic with tight pickup pattern Mono of essential mix elements thru control room monitors with one side phase flipped record the mix only (no live singing) thru the same mic/position onto a separate track and phase flip THAT with the vocal to cancel out more of the bleed My question is should the mic be setup so ithe "rejection" side is rejecting the speakers (less bleed), or should the live side be FACING the speakers so you get more of the monitors, leading to better implementation of the phase canceling effect. Both answers kinda make sense to me. I can try it of course, but I just wanted some opinions before the session. __________________ Danny Gold

15th February 2008	#5
slaves666 Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montreal Posts: 2,155	I do vox in my control room, but I use a packing blanket between us to isolate from the sound, plus we both wear headphones, no mains. __________________ www.upliftproductions.com www.slavesondope.com www.facebook.com/slavesondopeofficial

15th February 2008	#6
Bob Olhsson Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN Posts: 10,638	If you use something like a handheld M-88 you can just crank the mains and enjoy. To be honest, I've never heard anybody do better with headphones than without while lots of folks do way better both intonation-wise and dynamically without phones. __________________ Bob's room 615 562-4346 Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Music Industry 2.0 Interview

15th February 2008	#8
Fletcher member no 666 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 9,464	We do live vocals in the control room on a pretty regular basis... we have large mains which we crank... don't bother the with "mono/phase filp" bullshit as it makes my head spin when I'm sitting at the desk. Most often we'll use an SM-7b... but we've used all kinds of condenser mics as well... from Telefunken USA M-16's to Brauner VMX's without a struggle. The one thing you need to do is pick a monitor volume and stick with it. That way if you need to do vocal punches the bleed from the backing tracks stays even. Best of luck with it. __________________ CN Fletcher Professional Affiliations: R/E/P Professional Recording Engineer and Producer forums - serious hobbyists welcome TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik SoundPure.com mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33 We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light

15th February 2008	#10
extendedplay Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Camarillo, CA Posts: 131	Phase flip If you are going to try to flip phase it is important that you make sure that the mic is equidistant from each speaker. Also as Fletcher stated it will be important to have a consistent monitoring level regardless of which way you do it. The first time I did vocals with speakers instead of phones we set up in the tracking room a pair of Altec A7s, three singers around a 67 and I was impressed with the results. The additional benefit of using the setup in the tracking room is that like some of the others the speaker out of phase thing makes my head want to implode. Steve McDonald

15th February 2008	#2
nadumr Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Surf Avenue, NY Posts: 275	Although I dont know the answer and shouldn't be chiming in... seems like the mic needs to be facing the same way for both recordings, in order for it to accurately cancel out what occurs in the recording with the vocal... so away from the speakers for both...

15th February 2008	#3
johnmarkpainter Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Nashville Posts: 133	I would try to figure out a way to set up one monitor for the singer in the tracking room. A drag when you have to set your control room level and mix up just for the singer. I've seen lots of old country dudes use a single Auratone for this. jmp

15th February 2008	#4
alexkemp Gear maniac Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: venice, ca Posts: 260	i have heard of doing the 'mono nix, one speaker flipped' OR the regular mix (with vocal) and a second pass on another track (just the monitor bleed) and flipping it after the fact.... but not both! let us know if that works out!

15th February 2008	#7
dangoudie Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: London Posts: 602	the SE Reflexion Filter works really well to attenuate ambient sound and it barely effects what the mic hears from the direct source. It's specifically designed for people who wanna record in their control room or in places which aren't acoustically treated.

15th February 2008	#9
judah Lives for gear Join Date: May 2006 Location: Spaghettiland Posts: 870	Agree with Fletcher. Recorded a few vocals this week with an SM7 in the control room. Mic's null facing the monitors, average listening volume (so the singer can "get in" the songs and doesn't have to kill his/her lungs out). Minimal bleeding, much less than you might expect. Nice.

16th February 2008	#11
Bob Olhsson Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN Posts: 10,638	This is how virtually everybody overdubbed vocals prior to 1965.

16th February 2008	#14
A LaMere Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,143	+1 for the sm7 and tracking live with the monitors blaring.... that's essentially why I bought an sm7, and it works REALLY well for this... __________________ www.myspace.com/aaronlamere

16th February 2008	#16
peeceebee Gear addict Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 323	For me, in my one-room-does-it-all "studio", as I cut all overdubs live with monitors in the room (just about never use headphones), the added ambience of the monitor bleed gives a lot of life that otherwise would be lacking in my bedroom-room sound...

16th February 2008	#18
yuppie Gear Head Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 66	that's interesting, would you mute the vocal playback on monitors while recording the vocal part?

16th February 2008	#19
Mike Caffrey Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 4,088	The bleed is almost always far less than you'd imagine. Obviously, don't use an omni. If possible, mute the click track if there is one as that's about the only bleed that you might have to get rid of. The monitors don't have to be cranked. You can also position the singer fairly far away. An RE-20 was my go to for this scenario. I've bee using the PR-30 instead for the past year or so.

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17th February 2008	#21
minus-sounds.com Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 505	I'd been using the MD441

17th February 2008	#22
andy_simpson Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poland Posts: 550	If your monitors have good, musical dynamics this can be the next best thing to recording the whole band live for inspired perfomances. If you do like Bob with EMT & delay running live, you'd better like it enough to keep it! Andy