first "lifetime" pre - advice sought on candidates/suitability for my app/needs

[Charlie_M]

Caught a lucky break and now looking to do a major upgrade to my rig. On the menu is a nice outboard / effects unit (leaning toward either pcm81 or h3000, a used on in either case).

Aside from that I'm looking to upgrade preamps and that's te subject of this thread. The ART units in my sig were a very noticeable improvement over the 002 pres but now I want to reach a little further.

This is a hobby for me (can't write off the depreciation!) so, probably I'm looking at used gear to keep things reasonable.

What I do is record songs that I write which only involve tracking guitar (acoustic and electric), bass (direct) and vocals. I NEVER record drums... only use midi drums (Reason, been pretty happy with the drum sounds I have now with their drum expansion pack).

I'm actually pretty happy with my guitar tones these days, so I would say my main goal is to improve my vocal tracks. I'm not looking at it like "OK send in the gear to rescue the crappy singer (me)" but more like "let's go ahead and make the investment and see how good we can make this sound"

For that kind of application, I'm torn between:

1. api a2d: reputedly outstanding unit but .... seems like the strong suit for the api is drums - is that right? This might not make it a god fit for me.
2. UA 6176
3. UA la-610
4. some neve clone

Understand these are different beasts in that 2 and 3 include compression while 1 doesn't (but it has converters). Those additional features are things I would value and don't mind paying for, but really want the decision to be mainly driven by the preamp.

Also... anyone know if the 1176 inside the 6176 is "1176-lite", or is that the real deal? Understand it's not an exact component clone (the UA website says as much) - only interested in performance/output.

Prefer something rack mountable but not 100% hung up on that. Welcome any thoughts or suggestions on what I hope will be my first "lifetime" pre.

Whatever I get, I'm thinking used market is OK, and probably don't want to exceed $1500 (6176 may strain that but that's fine).

Finally, I recognize that whatever I get I may end up not loving it, so I'm prepared to eat the costs associated with a certain amount of turnover if it comes to that, but really just want to give it my best shot on the first try. Appreciate any thoughts, experience, suggestions.

Thanks!

Charlie

[jdjustice]

API is def. known for drums but lots of great records were / are made using them for everything, including vocals....

personally i don't _love_ the sound of the UA preamps, compared to a GR or API, but do love the compressors.
that said, the 6176 is a quite nice unit and should give you a good vocal sound with the right mic.

i am biased towards recommending things i own -- and that means i will suggest you at least look at the GR. (i also own Avalon and Hamptone pres --- the Hamptone is my 2nd fav in the preamp dpt, the Avalon (737) has a sweet eq section).

Originally Posted by Charlie_M

Also... anyone know if the 1176 inside the 6176 is "1176-lite", or is that the real deal? Understand it's not an exact component clone (the UA website says as much) - only interested in performance/output.

it's not SPOT-on 1176 'real-deal' but comes quite close to _my_ ears.
there are some modernizations -- whether they improve upon the classic or not is up to you. (and the 'classic' new is a re-issue too, so...).

basically the 6176's compressor will not sound exactly like a 1176 but who says that's a bad thing? it sounds good, definitely.

most preamps above $1000/ch are quite good and sufficient and from there it's just a matter of personal taste (and opinions which are naturally swayed by what _we_ have invested our hard-earned money in)....


more ppl will chime in i'm sure.
good luck!! it's exciting getting a great pre (i just got another channel of GR this week; should arrive tomorrow).

jd

[jdjustice]

Originally Posted by Charlie_M

What I do is record songs that I write which only involve tracking guitar (acoustic and electric), bass (direct) and vocals. I NEVER record drums... only use midi drums (Reason, been pretty happy with the drum sounds I have now with their drum expansion pack).

I'm actually pretty happy with my guitar tones these days, so I would say my main goal is to improve my vocal tracks. I'm not looking at it like "OK send in the gear to rescue the crappy singer (me)" but more like "let's go ahead and make the investment and see how good we can make this sound"

^_^ screams Great River to me (maybe just me-- but i don't know anyone who DIS-likes the GR)...




(if you dislike the GR pls chime in and state why, i would love to hear of someone dissatisfied with this unit, if only for the huh? factor)


jd

[Charlie_M]

Thanks JD for the info and suggestion. I'll add the GR to the list... I think maybe it belongs under item 4 (neve clone). Yep it's pretty exciting for me to be jumping into some better gear. Still pretty early in my learning - I feel like I've spent the first year or so just getting oriented and now feeling ready to try to do better on the recordings. Really looking forward going back and re-record all the stuff I've written over the past year using better gear to gauge my learning and the impact of the gear. Fun stuff for sure. Thanks again.

Charlie

[Bob Olhsson]

Seventh Circle Audio
thumbsup

[Charlie_M]

I looked really hard at the SCA solution. I heard a clip of an N72 recently and thought "yep, that sounds like a record". I think it's a great solution for a person who thinks he's going to end up with 4 or 5 preamps or more (up to 8 I guess). The thing is that with me and my little rig I doubt I'm going to end up with more than 3, maybe 4 preamps, and I doubt they'd ideally all be from the same source (again... could be wrong, that's really a probabalistic statement). I'd feel like it's a waste to have an 8 space chassis with and end goal of having maybe 2 pieces in it, and probably it would sit for a long time with only 1.

I don't know what their product development plans may entail, but f they offered some great comps or other gear like that (maybe an eq?) I could see filling the thing up over time and would see it as potentially more viable for me. I think if that were available, I could see that down the road even after I get some other pres. I'm kind of a hands-on engineering and physics guy in my regular work so it would be up my alley in that sense.

Charlie

[Old Cane]

I do this as a hobby too after playing on the road and doing sessions (mostly demo) for about 25 years. I got the single GR ME-1NV and love it. I use it for acoustic, electric, bass and vocals. Everything but drums. In other words it's the only one I have.

My drummer on the other hand has a small studio which he makes about half his income from and he has a LA-610 and has used it on kick, bass, guitar, harp , fiddle, vocals....in other words everything from the bottom up. He really really likes this one.

For $1000+/channel I think it's hard to make a bad choice with any of these. For $1000+/channel I think I think it had better be.

[Charlie_M]

OK you guys are making great sense... Maybe I should just face the reality that if I hang with this thing long enough I'm going to end up with a neve clone of one type or another, and probably ALSO a nice tube pre like the 610 (whether I get that with an 1176 attached, or a t4 attached, or by itself).

I think I'm going to just keep my eyes open for: la-610, 6176, AND me1-nv (or even the api for that matter ) on the used market and kinda let fate decide which one I get first (in other words it'll probably be whichever one comes up as a good deal on a used one first).

OK shopping now.

Thanks guys.

Charlie

[Old Cane]

You know, you might also check out the Manley single channel. I think it's called the Dual Mono but that may be the 2-channel model. The single is usually less than $1500. It's tube and sounds wonderful.

[mattoxxx]

Ever considered booking some time at a studio with a good engineer and nice vocal chain? Maybe you can learn more from that then try out a bunch of different pre's. You also gota think "where does the source start?" umm do you have a mic that sounds good on your voice, if not no pre amp is gona help you. Just something to consider.

Matt Hayes

[Blake Minaker]

How about the Telefunken stuff? That seems to get a lot of love.

[johnnyjellybean]

Avedis MA5. I love it.... you will too!

[infopimpster]

I have a 6176 and love it so far! Not steeped in the vintage flavors so I can't give you a contrast.

It definitely has 'flavor' when you dial up the gain... and use ALL buttons mode. Gotta love that Pet Sounds era type tone!!!

I think it is perfect for a vox or bass pre... but for MY needs, now I'm looking to API for 4 tracks to use on drums... I blame GS.

But in your case you don't record drums... hmmm....

[sdelsolray]

Take a look at the ADK AP2. It's an excellent basic pre (lots of clean quiet gain) and allows for swappable input transformers and swappable discrete Op Amps (based on the API 2520 footprint). Many variations/colors/behaviors can be obtained by simply swapping trannys or Op Amps, which takes all of 45 seconds, give or take. There are currently 5 trannys (they are all mount on a daughter board) and about 10 Op Amps available.

[deda]

I would think a great tube pre would be a great choice and a Groove Tube Vipre is not only a great tube pre but has bells and whistles that are unlike any other. The Impedance selecter will give you many choices for varying sounds on each one of your modest mic selection and the Rise Time selecter does things unheard of on any type of audio track. Goggle up Vipre and Michael Wagener of Wireworld Studios, the moderater of High end, or maybe Youtube it one way or the other he has a 2 minute plus video on the Vipre and is on his lists of must have. The Vipre is also pretty much good on everything, you will not be dissapointed. The problem is if your looking new they are pricey but I have seen them on Ebay and Gearslutz for $1,800.00 numerous times. I know its only one channel but as stated above it has one hell of a lot of MOJO.
Additionally Groove Tube now has the Supre which is a dual channel micpre that is stated as being somewhere between the Brick and the Vipre. It does have an Impedance selecter which is a plus but not the Rise Time selecter thats on the Vipre. I have not heard this pre but its available at many audio outlets, even the Guitar Center near you to go and try it out. Take your mikes and go A/B it with the UA Pres they also carry. The price is right up your alley at about $1,500.00 with tax.
I also recommened a Telefunken V72 which are around a $1,000.00 per module unracked, probably $1,500.00 by the time you get it racked. Another great choice would be from the Tube God himself Oliver at Tab-Funkenwerk. I have not heard personally the Tab V72s but have read nothing but great things about them and they are as I recall about $2,200.00 a racked pair and I think they sell single racked ones as well.
I think you'ed thrilled by having a tube pre in your rack especially for you wanting to improve your vocals, nothing in my book beats tubes for the MOJO you're looking for, good luck and regards ,,deda,,

[Charlie_M]

OK well.. ended up finding a 6176 locally on craigslist. Installed it in the rack and can't wait to try it out tomorrow. Thanks for all the recommendations and advice!

Charlie

[Old Cane]

Let us know. SOunds like a great choice.

[Charlie_M]

Experimented a bit today and found some settings really I like for voice through the e-300^2 mic.

I was thinking that it might be kind of an odyssey trying to get this thing set up, but it was actually quite easy to converge on settings that I like for voice.

I tended to gravitate towards the input gain higher and output gain lower , for a given volume. This makes it kinda "thick" but not what I'd call dirty (words and audio just don't seem to get on well do they?). Also I liked the hi eq flat and the low eq with 1.5 dB at 100 Hz (for my voice and this mic...). When I got the comp where I wanted it, the GR needle was sitting at zero most of the time and rarely goes above 3 dB but it does sometimes.Ratio at 4 and attack and release both set on the fast side but not quite maxed out in that respect.

One thing that surprised me is that it seemed to sound better at 2k input impedance. I was expecting to like 300 ohms better as that's closer to what the mic is, but ... so be it.

My initial impression is that I should have done this long ago, but... I'm not so sure about that. It's weird... the improvement is in some sense subtle, like... a person not into recording or audio might not even notice, but if you've been farting around for a year with $200 preamps, listening closely and trying to figure out what's missing... you notice it. Kinda gives me high hopes about what awaits as I upgrade the rest of the rig one little step at a time.

Really hoping to have time to give the bass DI a good try over the weekend. I was surprised to not need very much compression to like the results on my voice. If I end up not needing much comp on the bass, that'll really surprise me.

Anyway - thanks again for all the tips and advice.

Charlie

[infopimpster]

Keep playing with it. It is subtle but real. If you forget what it is adding just bypass and and you'll "remember".

The attack and release settings are good to play with depending on your source.... I just keep sticking with 4:1, 10 oclock and 2 oclock for input and output... post your settings once you get it all dialed in and let us know what you like.

[A LaMere]

In general the difference a pre makes on a single channel is pretty subtle if you're doing it right...

The real differences in pre's show themselves with a lot of usage and once you begin to stack tracks.. even with just 2-3 tracks stacked you start hearing more differences...

You hear the punch or the tracks, how it works in the low mids and low end...

This is the big difference between the GR NV and a lot of other pre's I've used....
You can hear subtle differences on single tracks, sure... but the real personality of the pre's begin to shine when you hear them in a mix with multiple tracks etc...

the way that the low end is punchy, and not flabby... the way that the transients are hitting at the right time and not phasing strangely... the way everything is fitting together with everything else.... etc.

Those are the differences that preamps provide in my opinion...

[Charlie_M]

Originally Posted by infopimpster

Keep playing with it. It is subtle but real. If you forget what it is adding just bypass and and you'll "remember".

The attack and release settings are good to play with depending on your source.... I just keep sticking with 4:1, 10 oclock and 2 oclock for input and output... post your settings once you get it all dialed in and let us know what you like.

Will do. Funny thing is that I'm real close to those settings now. I'd say I'm more like 9:30 / 1 oclock for input output with ratio on 4. I'm sure I'll keep tweaking but have to say this seems to be giving me pretty good control without squashing the dynamics out of it. I think the main thing I want to dial in more now is the attack/release. Looking at the waveforms I'd say the attack is currently fast enough that it's not an issue - may experiment with slowing it down a bit but I think of that (maybe incorrectly... ) as more of a drum thing. Thanks - will post when I have more info.

[Charlie_M]

Originally Posted by A LaMere

The real differences in pre's show themselves with a lot of usage and once you begin to stack tracks.. even with just 2-3 tracks stacked you start hearing more differences...

I have a kind of "terminology" question. When you talk about "stacking" tracks are you talking about:

1. a single vocal track in a mix, "stacked" with other instruments/tracks
2. several duplicates of the vocal track, processed through various effects, or
3. many different takes of the same vocal track, either in a mix or by themselves.

What I listened to today was a single vocal track recorded through the 6176 in a mix with a bunch of guitar and bass tracks, which were recorded some time back using other gear. Drums were pretty great samples which I presume were tracked with pretty killer gear. The vox track had sends to other tracks for effects (one went to reverb, one to a delay, one to a "kind of dirty" guitar amp model) and all mixed back together at levels that sounded right. The difference did seem more apparent with the sends active vs. when I shut them to hear it totally dry. Is that what you mean or do you mean something else that I haven't listed here? Thanks.

Charlie

[idrinkalot]

he means when you record many tracks with that preamp. vocals, then guitar, then bass, backup vocals, percussion, whatever. as the tracks pile up you'll really start hearing a difference compared to older songs you've done with cheaper preamps.

[Charlie_M]

Ah... OK Thanks. It may take me some time to get a whole song done with all new tracks using the new unit, but of course looking forward to that.

[Old Cane]

Yeah, this "new" terminology has really got me too. It took me a while to figure out what "stems" are since the only guy I collab with uses Cubase like I do. We just send entire projects back an forth. And this "2-bus" really had me perplexed. Oh, it's what we used to call "master" out (no, not a master) becasue that's what it usually said on all the consoles I worked on. Summing is another one. Isn't that just grouping or busing or defining sends? And "printing". Geez. Sometimes a spade is just a spade and bad is bad.

Being out of this biz for 20 years shows.

"stacking" means multi-tracking. I guess maybe becasue on a computer screen they look "stacked"? Raquel Welch is stacked. Yes, I am old.