2 channels of high end mic pre / EQ ?

[littlenemo]

Hi,

I'm in the market for a very good pair of mic preamps / EQ, and I have these models in my mind :

- Focusrite ISA 115 HD : it's old I know but the seller is a good pro audio shop and he assured me that every pot/switch was working flawlessly and the unit doesn't need to be recapped (should I trust the guy ? )

- 2x Vintech X73i

- 2x Daking 52270

- Phoenix audio DRS-Q4 : this one is probably the cheapest and simplest way to go as I can find it here in europe for a good price, but the EQ is more limited.

I'd like to buy a versatile preamp, that I could use on voice, electric guitar, acoustic guitar and bass, also to warm up synths, not too dark sounding but not too aggressive either. Something soft but warm, making things sound larger than natural, with a lot of headroom but a nice distortion when pushed hard. Not something too transparent and with enough gain to use with ribbons. The same for the EQ part, not something surgical, something musical, more to shape the sound of an instrument and add some character than to make corrections.

So, in your opinion and based on your experience, which of the aforementioned units would best fit my needs ? Or maybe something else ? By the way my budget is around $2000-2500, so unfortunately a pair of vintage Neve 1084 is not an option

Thanks !!

[Slaytex]

Aurora Audio GTQ2!

[emptyman]

If you can't do what you need to with the Daking Mic-Pre/EQ's...you suck!

[littlenemo]

yes the aurora GTQ2 seems pretty cool, it seems to have similar features than the phoenix audio drsq4, and these are both built by ex-neve employees, does someone here have already heard both ?

[littlenemo]

Originally Posted by emptyman

If you can't do what you need to with the Daking Mic-Pre/EQ's...you suck!

well I guess I'll be able to get great results from any of these high end pre/EQs, but I'd like to know how they compare with each other, how do you guys describe their different characters, their strong points / weak points, etc... why do you prefer one to the other, on what sources do you prefer one over the other, etc...

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by littlenemo

and the unit doesn't need to be recapped (should I trust the guy ? )

Not in any regard would I trust this guy if I were you.

That has to be at very minimum 15 years old... which means it will need to be recapped... and recapping those things is a nightmare as the circuit board traces lift up if you so much as look at the unit funny!!

Be afraid... be very, very afraid!!

As for the rest of it... hell if I know what you're doing, your goals, your music, blah, blah, blah... you might as well let the other nice folks who also have no clue of your actual needs do the suggesting in that area.

Peace.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by littlenemo

yes the aurora GTQ2 seems pretty cool, it seems to have similar features than the phoenix audio drsq4, and these are both built by ex-neve employees, does someone here have already heard both ?

The GTQ is built by a former Neve employee. The Phoenix is not (Shaun Leveque never worked for Neve).

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Not in any regard would I trust this guy if I were you.

That has to be at very minimum 15 years old... which means it will need to be recapped... and recapping those things is a nightmare as the circuit board traces lift up if you so much as look at the unit funny!!

Be afraid... be very, very afraid!!

Agreed, plus those switches are a pain in the ass as well.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

The GTQ is built by a former Neve employee. The Phoenix is not (Shaun Leveque never worked for Neve).

Shit Tony... let's not get into a Neve "employee of the month" pissing match... OK?

Shaun didn't... but David Rees who designed the stuff did... he was the guy who designed [among many other things] the 2254... which means he was an actual designer, not just a bloke who worked in the drafting department [which could be way off base... but was how Mr. Tanner (a man for whom I have serious respect) was described to me by the guy whose name is on the company... yeah, that guy... the one with the bald head who lives in Texas who hates all the old stuff].

BTW, Mercenary Audio has no affiliation with either Phoenix Audio... so frankly I couldn't give a rat's ass either way... just trying to set the record straight.

Peace.

[Johnkenn]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Shit Tony... let's not get into a Neve "employee of the month" pissing match... OK?

Shaun didn't... but David Rees who designed the stuff did... he was the guy who designed [among many other things] the 2254... which means he was an actual designer, not just a bloke who worked in the drafting department [which could be way off base... but was how Mr. Tanner (a man for whom I have serious respect) was described to me by the guy whose name is on the company... yeah, that guy... the one with the bald head who lives in Texas who hates all the old stuff].

BTW, Mercenary Audio has no affiliation with either Phoenix Audio... so frankly I couldn't give a rat's ass either way... just trying to set the record straight.

Peace.

Ouch...meow...
BTW, I think the Aurora stuff is really great for what it's worth...

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Shit Tony... let's not get into a Neve "employee of the month" pissing match... OK?

Shaun didn't... but David Rees who designed the stuff did... he was the guy who designed [among many other things] the 2254... which means he was an actual designer, not just a bloke who worked in the drafting department [which could be way off base... but was how Mr. Tanner (a man for whom I have serious respect) was described to me by the guy whose name is on the company... yeah, that guy... the one with the bald head who lives in Texas who hates all the old stuff].

BTW, Mercenary Audio has no affiliation with either Phoenix Audio... so frankly I couldn't give a rat's ass either way... just trying to set the record straight.

Peace.

Well, the original topic had to do with the gear being built by former Neve employee's.. I don't believe Phoenix makes this claim... certainly not on their website. The GTQ is obviously built by a former Neve employee.

As far as Geoff Tanner's description as a draughtsman, that was his original title when he was hired in 1971. He was promoted to Head of that department less than 12 months later, and held several different titles over the next 14 years with Neve. Geoff has a deep history with that company... regardless of what the "bald guy who hates all the old stuff" said.

Speaking of the bald guy... He left the company in 1974 or 75, and was unaware of positions held by Geoff after his departure. Geoff was wearing many hats (which included designing gear) after Rupert's departure.

[littlenemo]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Not in any regard would I trust this guy if I were you.

That has to be at very minimum 15 years old... which means it will need to be recapped... and recapping those things is a nightmare as the circuit board traces lift up if you so much as look at the unit funny!!

Be afraid... be very, very afraid!!

As for the rest of it... hell if I know what you're doing, your goals, your music, blah, blah, blah... you might as well let the other nice folks who also have no clue of your actual needs do the suggesting in that area.

Peace.

Thanks Fletcher. Yes I'm afraid, I thought of buying the ISA 115 mostly because it wasn't too expensive and with the hype vintage gear gets today, I thought it wouldn't be too difficult to re-sale if I didn't like it. But of course, I don't want to buy something useless and I certainly don't want to spend a lot more cash to have it recapped/repaired if needed.

As for the rest of it... For the moment, I do mostly recordings of my own music (rock and folk/rock acoustic stuff) at home, and I do a lot of live gigs and location recordings with or without my mobile rig, mostly for friends and local bands. I work at Radio France so I often borrow some studios there to record drums and other instruments when I don't have a good place to do it, and then I mix ITB at home. I'm also currently building a studio next to my new house to extend my possibilities and I'm also making some money with a friend doing illustration music and sound design for radio stations, websites, toys, etc.

I don't have a HUGE experience but I've done a lot of different things and by working for the national broadcast network I had the chance to get a hand on large consoles, tape machines, big protools rigs, etc. I worked on studer, calrec, girardin, digitech, schlumberger, dhd, klotz and even neve consoles but I've not used a lot of outboard pres and eqs, and certainly not the fancy american or british "boutique" ones. At work I've used focusrite ISA 220 and 430, SPL channel one and digidesign "pre". At home, I have or have owned ART digital MPA, Joemeek twinQ, presonus eureka, rme octopre, and various interface and small consoles pres from digidesign, motu, rme, mackie and yamaha. In fact I've always simply used what I had on hand at the moment and when I had a console, I've rarely even thought of using something else than the onboard pres.

Now, what I'd like now, is to buy 2 channels of high end pre/eqs, with the qualities I tried to explain with my limited english vocabulary in my first post, to use at home for my own music production, to carry with me when I do location recordings and live gigs, and to keep when my studio will be finished. I'd like to try one or two of these high end boutique pres that make all gearslutz members be so passionate about. I made my research and came with a few ideas and now I'd like to hear from people who actually used all these pres just to have their opinions on how they compare with each other and to help me decide which one to chose.

A very long post but a very simple request in fact. I hope that I gave enough information so you nice folks understand my needs a little better !

[littlenemo]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Shit Tony... let's not get into a Neve "employee of the month" pissing match... OK?

Shaun didn't... but David Rees who designed the stuff did... he was the guy who designed [among many other things] the 2254... which means he was an actual designer, not just a bloke who worked in the drafting department [which could be way off base... but was how Mr. Tanner (a man for whom I have serious respect) was described to me by the guy whose name is on the company... yeah, that guy... the one with the bald head who lives in Texas who hates all the old stuff].

BTW, Mercenary Audio has no affiliation with either Phoenix Audio... so frankly I couldn't give a rat's ass either way... just trying to set the record straight.

Peace.

Yes, when I said both poenix audio and aurora were built by former neve techs, I was thinking of david rees and geoff tanner. but tony's right, phoenix stuff are just based on david rees designs, and actually built by shaun leveque who never worked for neve. I was just pointing the fact that the gtq2 and the drsq4 had very similar features and share a background of nevesque design or inspiration or thing. It would be very interesting to hear them both and hear the differences.

[Geoff_T]

Hi

Rupert Neve = 1961 to 1975 = 14 years

Geoff Tanner = 1971 to 1985 = 14 years

Overlap = 4 years out of 14... and I worked in design roles for 10 years after 1975

Quote... just trying to set the record straight.

Peace.

etc

[TheMartin]

Rupert Neve = Mister Rupert "Neve" for many years and still many more

Geoff T = worked for "Neve" for some 14 years

Geoff, your products might be good but i hate companies making a name for themselves after another's big company.

Why not, like Neve, make your own design. That gray faceplate with red knobs..........i've seen that for many years, just can't remember where.

Just my 0.02

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by TheMartin

Rupert Neve = Mister Rupert "Neve" for many years and still many more

Geoff T = worked for "Neve" for some 14 years

Geoff, your products might be good but i hate companies making a name for themselves after another's big company.

Why not, like Neve, make your own design. That gray faceplate with red knobs..........i've seen that for many years, just can't remember where.

Just my 0.02

Geoff makes ALL of his own designs. And, he started using the red Marconi (not Neve) knobs and BLUE (not gray) faceplates when Neve abandoned them many years ago.

From what I understand, Rupert thinks all the old stuff was crap and wants to distance himself from those products. Geoff embraces those designs and that sound. Two different philosophies.

[TheMartin]

Yeah, just like this thing doesn't look like some Neve stuff.......haha.

Especially the 4 square push buttons on right and the red one on the left.

As far as looks goes, very original indeed.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by TheMartin

Yeah, just like this thing doesn't look like some Neve stuff.......haha.

Especially the 4 square push buttons on right and the red one on the left.

As far as looks goes, very original indeed.

Like I said before... Neve had abandoned that look for a period of 15 years, when Geoff resurrected it. Geoff brought back the whole marconi knob and blue face look. He was paying homage to the things he worked on during those years he was there. They had abandoned all of that stuff, and he brought it back. The GTQ was out before AMS released any horizontal rack mount gear that looks like the stuff in your attachment.

WHO CARES ABOUT THE LOOKS!

Why you are more worried about similarities in looks, than the 15 other companies who are straight ripping off these old designs, is beyond me. Those are the people you should be "hating" on...

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by littlenemo

well I guess I'll be able to get great results from any of these high end pre/EQs, but I'd like to know how they compare with each other, how do you guys describe their different characters, their strong points / weak points, etc... why do you prefer one to the other, on what sources do you prefer one over the other, etc...

Ok maybe now we should help Littlenemo with some answers to his questions! Don't have experience with the other two, but the Daking pre is very colorful and aggressive in the highs in a good way, and with a really nice English type EQ sounding not unlike a Trident.

[jchadstopherhuez]

Originally Posted by Beyersound

Ok maybe now we should help Littlenemo with some answers to his questions! Don't have experience with the other two, but the Daking pre is very colorful and aggressive in the highs in a good way, and with a really nice English type EQ sounding not unlike a Trident.

i'm with ya.

i love my dakings. great preamps...the eq's absolutely rule.

daking is new stuff. great company to deal with. solid gear.

for what its worth..i also have neve 1064's they sound great. they are old. they are always needing maintenance. dakings have been 100%...always.

just my 2 cents.

best,

jchristopherhughes

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by mixman499

i'm with ya.

i love my dakings. great preamps...the eq's absolutely rule.

daking is new stuff. great company to deal with. solid gear.

for what its worth..i also have neve 1064's they sound great. they are old. they are always needing maintenance. dakings have been 100%...always.

just my 2 cents.

best,

jchristopherhughes

Good 2 cents! We both forgot to elaborate on the build quality of the Daking: close to bulletproof! They definitely have "mojo", they are not for the people wanting a "flat response". For most, that is a great thing!

[TobyToby]

Originally Posted by TheMartin

Yeah, just like this thing doesn't look like some Neve stuff.......haha.

Especially the 4 square push buttons on right and the red one on the left.

As far as looks goes, very original indeed.

Thanks for your enlightening first two posts.
Gay ga zinta hate - Schmock !

[littlenemo]

Please, don't make this thread something else than it should be. I'd just like some of you to share your experiences of the pre/eqs that you loved and why you love them, don't bash products based on faceplate color or maker's backgound history. It doesn't help anyone.

Peace

I'd love to hear the Daking and the Aurora side by side, anyone know what differentiates them the most ?

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Like I said before... Neve had abandoned that look for a period of 15 years, when Geoff resurrected it.

Hmmm... they seem to have embraced that look for their new stuff...


8801
88038816

[RockDog]

Originally Posted by TheMartin

Rupert Neve = Mister Rupert "Neve" for many years and still many more

Geoff T = worked for "Neve" for some 14 years

Geoff, your products might be good but i hate companies making a name for themselves after another's big company.

Why not, like Neve, make your own design. That gray faceplate with red knobs..........i've seen that for many years, just can't remember where.

Just my 0.02

hmmm that bald headed guy worked at neve for 14 years and had imput in designing so if any of his own stuff resembles neve it should be geoff's
and also geoff tanner is the most helpful HONEST guy ive spoke to on this site, he helps us all so have some respect!!

oh an back to the original post id save up more an get a 1084 they are awesome an even geoff would agree with me on that

[Geoff_T]

Hi

Here's a bit of history that might raise a chuckle.... back in the early 1990's I was intrigued as to what had happened to the dies for the moulds of the Marconi knobs. The knobs you see on old Neve modules were manufactured by Marconi Instruments who are more famous for their sophisticated audio and radio frequency test gear. They had their own moulding department at St Albans and, by a blinding coincidence, my brother worked there in the early 1960's and I recall visiting the place.

Anyway, Marconi Instruments decided to drop the original style knobs and went over to modern collet style knobs... rather like Sifam and Elma sell these days.

The sad thing is that they literally threw away their stock of plastic knob mouldings and it literally filled a huge trash skip. The dies were also sold for scrap.

Anyway, I did a lot of detective work, including contacting retired purchasing managers from Marconi, and found out the name of the company to whom the dies had been sold.

I drove over there with samples of the knobs and we searched through their stock of dies until we found the original Marconi dies. I told them to hang on to them because they were worth a fortune and if anyone knows the company (I'm not telling ) and speaks with them, they would confirm that I was the guy that originally showed them the dies and their worth.

Anyway, I was the first guy to have them mould knobs for me and, interestingly, in my 14+ history at Neve, I never saw a maroon 1/2" knob.... the standard bar knob and the smooth 11/16" knob, but never the 1/2".

I was the first to have that knob moulded in that colour and used it on the GTM.

Judging from Fletcher's photos, the notion was copied for the new series modules!

[Fletcher]

Great story on the knobs!!!

It appeared to me that AMS/Neve was using knobs similar to the "aux send" knobs found on early 80 series desks but in a festival of new and fabulous colors!!

Knobs don't make the unit, looks don't make the unit, what's inside makes the unit. Unlike Tony, we don't sell Geoff's gear... but I will mention that one of the guys here owns a GTQ-2 and uses it [with great success I might add] on a regular basis.

So... if we stop blabbering about past work experience, knob caps and colors and get down to the nitty gritty of what happens to the audio passing through the box then I think we can all agree that the audio that comes from Geoff's stuff is tip top... which should hopefully end this exceptionally pedantic discussion.

My only point has been that about knobs and past work experience... never about the product [just felt like a clarification was in order].

Peace.

[Geoff_T]

Hi Fletcher

Thanks for the kind words about moi and my gear!

You know, if you will bear with another "Neve" history lesson, you are not the first person to report back to me that, when asked about me, bald headed one would comment, disparigingly "Oh, he was only a draughtsman!"

And your post's "not just a bloke who worked in the drafting department" simply mirrored that contention.

The facts are that, in the four years that we overlapped at the same company, I cannot recall a single conversation with the guy. He seldom visited our office, never spoke to me, and had no idea what I was doing.

Just "draughting" it was not! I was overqualified as a draughtsman and merely took the job (I had no clue what the company made) so that I could move to Cambridge, buy a house and get married... which I did a month after joining. (I also took around an 8K drop in salary from my previous job in Watford!)

My qualifications are why I was promoted to head of the department within a year of joining.

To demonstrate what I did, beyond draughting, here's a post I put on my Neve secrets forum. I still have a copy of the memo mentioned... note that this memo is dated 1976... a year after bald one left the company.

Hi

I was clearing old paperwork out of the drawers of my desk and found an old Neve memo from 1976, addressed to the CDE's (Console Design Engineers) but, in truth, aimed at a few as most were expert at their roles.

Anyway, I moved on from the position in the drawing office as I couldn't see any way of advancing and didn't want to get stuck in the drawing office for ever... I was 30 years old.

When I originally took over the position as head of the electrical drawing office I was dismayed at how little documentation was laid down concerning how consoles should be wired... other than EDO standards (which related to wiring procedures) and a solitary note from Mr Neve concerning grounding procedures.

The problem was exaserbated by the fact that the Electrical draughtsmen had minimal formal electronic training and thus not a great understanding of the implications of aspects of the diagrams they drew.

I took it upon myself to produce Technical Information Sheets that explained the basic principles of audio theory (e.g. What is a dB?) and then went on to explain how to design attenuators, how to design pan-pots, gain calculations for amplifiers and especially the important principles of the mix system. As this was before calculators in the early days, many of the sheets were columns of figures and charts from which one could select the correct bus resistor value or work out the gain needed from the resultant bus level. All console diagrams had to have tables indicating bus impedances and levels to help with checking the calculations and assist test department with trouble tracing.

There were around 44 sheets in the end and they were kept in the print room and distributed in the same fashion as the EDO standards.

Anyway, this is the content of the memo...

To Dr M H Jones
cc John Turner
From D J Langford
18th May 1976

With the departure of G Tanner from the DO on the 30th June 1976 it will be imperative that CDE's fulfil their recognised function of engineering block diagrams in sufficient detail i.e. system diagram, levels, module details, etc., before passing the project over to the electrical section of the D.O. for detail drawing of the circuit diagram.

Also, all electrical technical queries whether desks or modules must be channeled via the respective CDE for the relative project.

This action, although it is appreciated may cause some inconvenience, will be more in keeping with the recognised system that should be operating within the engineering area.

It is possible that some discussion will be required to clarify the position.

DJL

The gentleman that replaced me as head of the electrical drawing office, Fred Bell, (may he rest in peace) came from the aircraft industry and had minimal electronic qualifications and hence the need for the CDE's to take over all aspects of the design work. Fred was brought up with the strict paper trail philosphy for aircraft assembly and repair certification and this found its way into subsequent console documentation, with the 5316 circuit diagram becoming 120 sheets of wiring notes and many diagrams having charts and notes rather than clear circuit diagram representations.

The passing of an era!

Just a draughtsman? Head of the electrical drawing office, Custom design engineer in Sales Engineering, Special Orders Manager, Special Projects Manager, Spares Orders Manager (the last three positions held concurrently)

Anyway, back to the point of the thread... if you can't get 1084's (either AMS or BA... see the other thread) go for the Dakings!

[littlenemo]

Geoff, Fletcher thanks for all the clarifications. I definitely can't get neither AMS or BAE 1084 or 1073, it's really too much money for just a pair of preamps and eqs, I'm sure there's a lot of more affordable options that would do the job just fine. But I'm now curious that you're suggesting me to buy the Dakings and not your own product the GTQ2 ? Do you think the Dakings would better fit my needs based on what I tried to explain ? Or you're just telling me that I should buy in this order of preference :

1. AMS or BAE 1084/1073
2. your GTQ2
3. the Dakings

You're familiar with the dakings, so how do they compare with your gtq2 ?

Thanks !

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by littlenemo

Geoff, Fletcher thanks for all the clarifications. I definitely can't get neither AMS or BAE 1084 or 1073, it's really too much money for just a pair of preamps and eqs, I'm sure there's a lot of more affordable options that would do the job just fine. But I'm now curious that you're suggesting me to buy the Dakings and not your own product the GTQ2 ? Do you think the Dakings would better fit my needs based on what I tried to explain ? Or you're just telling me that I should buy in this order of preference :

1. AMS or BAE 1084/1073
2. your GTQ2
3. the Dakings

You're familiar with the dakings, so how do they compare with your gtq2 ?

Thanks !

Hi

I was trying to avoid the sales weasel image and recommend my choice of what you had on your original list. Geoff Daking's modules are built like tanks and great sounding... you wouldn't go far wrong with that choice.

The problem with Neve modules and clones thereof, is that they need racking, power supplies, and decent DI inputs which, of course, the original modules didn't have.

For roughly the cost of a single 1073 module, like the BA version on a panel with power supply and XLR's, is that for the cost of that mono unit... you could get a GTQ2.

And the GTQ2 is a nice unit!

[Geoff_T]

Hi

Here's a sound clip of 10 channels of Aurora pre amps... a GTP8 + GTQ2 (plus a couple of API's)

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/work-...gtp8-gtq2.html