Dissatisfied with dynamic mics on distorted guitars!

[cortisol]

I'm ready to try a new approach to recording distorted guitar tones.

The story...

My bro in-law gave me a Senn 421. One of the newer models. I know I like the older models on toms so I'm delighted to be given this mic!

I tried all kinds of placement with this thing. I found the optimum placement where the hype in the eq was most neutral and where I got the most bass end relative to still having a close mic approach.

I found that I had to alter the sound dialed into the amp in order to get a good recorded sound after mic placement! It didn't sound as good in the room compared to the sound coming from the amp at the start.

So I'm thinking that I want a nice flat condenser to just give me the true to life sound in the room.

I have been very satisfied with using an SM58 close micing combo amps. I can get great clean and clean edgey sounds as well as good lightly over driven sounds.

But for the seriously distorted 4x12 heavy sounds I am finding that I am carving the sound with eq into the mix rather than capturing the great sound at source in the room!

Recommend some LDC's that are towards flatness that you are using on distorted guitars.

I'm enjoying listening to the Roadrunner United CD, "Sacrament" by LOG, "The Haunted Made Me Do It" and "The Dead Eye" by The Haunted.

Any other approaches I can take for Heavy guitars then throw in your 2 cents.

Peace,
cortisol

[Fletcher]

FWIW... I have never been a 421 fan on any guitar at any period in the evolution [or de-evolution depending on your perspective] of the 421. It can work sometimes in conjunction but I always seem to end up with this like 3kHz "ice pick in the forehead" kinda thing when I try 421's in general.

One thing I would definitely suggest is for you to get the cabinet off the floor. When you have something like a 4x 12" cabinet on the floor it couples with the floor and gives you a false sense of bass... which means you have great bottom in the room... but not such great bottom coming out of the speakers... and that's where you're putting your microphone, right on one of the speakers... no?

If you can get the cabinet up in the air a bit... on a road case or a coupla bar stools you'll be able to hear exactly what's coming out of the speakers [it'll be on ear level] and you'll be able to adjust accordingly.

If you're a fan of the 58 on one kind of guitar recording then it'll probably work just fine on the other kind of guitar recording you're doing. Again, in the FWIW world... I usually prefer small diaphragm FET condensers for loud / distorted 4x 12" kinds of sounds or a ribbon before lg. diaphragm condenser mics... but that could very well just be me.

There are a billion and a half different mics on the planet these days... there are several el cheapo Chinese condenser mics that should be able to handle the task of "loud guitar" without a struggle... so if you're hell bent on trying a lg. diaphragm condenser you may want to wander on down to the Banjo Mart and pick up something that seems to have some balls to it [careful of the overly bright / harsh top thing that many of them provide as that does NOT go well with GTR's... try to find one that is less "bright" than a TLM-103 and you should be on a path].

From my limited experience with them I would advise you avoid the Chinese ribbon mics for another few years... eventually they'll get it figured out and kill off the remaining US companies that make ribbon mics... but until then [from what I've heard / experienced] it's shit product, so let someone else fund their R & D budget while you make records.

Peace.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by cortisol

I'm ready to try a new approach to recording distorted guitar tones.

The story...

My bro in-law gave me a Senn 421. One of the newer models. I know I like the older models on toms so I'm delighted to be given this mic!

I tried all kinds of placement with this thing. I found the optimum placement where the hype in the eq was most neutral and where I got the most bass end relative to still having a close mic approach.

I found that I had to alter the sound dialed into the amp in order to get a good recorded sound after mic placement! It didn't sound as good in the room compared to the sound coming from the amp at the start.

So I'm thinking that I want a nice flat condenser to just give me the true to life sound in the room.

I have been very satisfied with using an SM58 close micing combo amps. I can get great clean and clean edgey sounds as well as good lightly over driven sounds.

But for the seriously distorted 4x12 heavy sounds I am finding that I am carving the sound with eq into the mix rather than capturing the great sound at source in the room!

Recommend some LDC's that are towards flatness that you are using on distorted guitars.

I'm enjoying listening to the Roadrunner United CD, "Sacrament" by LOG, "The Haunted Made Me Do It" and "The Dead Eye" by The Haunted.

Any other approaches I can take for Heavy guitars then throw in your 2 cents.

Peace,
cortisol

I think its odd that you have written off all dynamics because one didn't work out. A lot of people are actually preferring ribbons on cabs. Might be something to consider.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

FWIW... I have never been a 421 fan on any guitar at any period in the evolution [or de-evolution depending on your perspective] of the 421. It can work sometimes in conjunction but I always seem to end up with this like 3kHz "ice pick in the forehead" kinda thing when I try 421's in general.

Same here. I used to see a ton of guys using a 57 and a 421 together.

For me, the 57 is as bright as I need.

I searched for something that went below the 57 and I've found the R121. Now I'm very happy. And if I'm using a bright amp (Clean Vox or Fender) I can just use the R121.

YMMV.

[rufus13]

So, You've tried BOTH a 421 AND an SM-57? That's it then, you need a gold-plated hip-hop approved allied-ship-sinking U-47 with NOS PVC diaphragm, and a vintage phat toob mike pre into a full-track 2" recorder at 60ips. Kiss any equity left in your house goodbye.

How about putting a new EV 635A in front of the cone? It'll cost you $85 and work fine, unless the source is somehow undesirable.

Cheers.

[warhead]

My favorite two mics on guitar cabs:

sE Electronics R1 ribbon: delivers the mids and bite with no spiky stuff, and doesn't have the bloated low end of many ribbons

Electro Voice ND468: tight, smooth, and very extended in response, it's quite proximity dependent and can be worked close for very tight response

The 468 is a stellar dynamic that should not be written off.

War

[andychamp]

The only mic (not only condenser) that ever gave me that "sounds just like standing in front of the amp" feeling was a Blue Dragonfly monitored through Quested VS2108 monitors.
Sadly it wasn't mine and I had to give it back. I hope someday I'll be able to justify spending that money for just 1 use.

[cortisol]

Hi all and thanks for the prompt replies.

Fletcher you are spot on about de-coupling the speaker box from the floor. This is part of the equation for my combo amp recordings but I hadn't factored it in for the 4x12! Doh! I do however mic the top speakers to avoid comb filtering from the floor.

I hear ya on the Chinese cheap condensers, I can't stand 'em either. Harsh and thin. So what SDC fet mics do you recommend?

TheArchitect I haven't written off dynamic mic per se for heavy guits. Just thought I'd like to try an approach with an un coloured mic that gives me some reality. I've read that the US of A recordist often go for condensers on guitar amps.

Don't tell my wife (you can keep a secret right), but I might just be saving up for a couple of Royer SF-1's for overhead duties (drums etc).I love the SF-12 and 2 SF-1's will let me do more stereo micing schemes with the same greatness of the SF-12.

I just want to try for a what you hear is what you get approach on amplifies for a bit.

Produceher I've read about the multi-micing approach with 2 different sounding mics. Steve Albini does it and it's your approach as well. Definately something to I'll consider.

rufus13 I'll give the mic a listen in a store when I'm next out and about. I'm not affraid to be cheap!

Thanks again,
cortisol

[cortisol]

Yay, more replies. Keep em coming coz I will read and consider the all! Ta.

Peace,
cortisol

[trustyjim]

I like the Beyerdynamic M160 ribbon on guitar amps. It sounds fantastic! They run about $500-$600.

[Flying_Dutchman]

for the haunted and some other european death/thrash metal a sm57 is still a good choice. If you like this sound i wouldnt care about the royer this much. I got one, but use it rarely for metal guitars. A Sm57 combined with a good condensator microphone is worth a try. When only one mic is avaible, or you want not to go into phase issues, the sm57 does the job, also the md421. Its more about amps, amp settings, cabinets little distortion boxes, the right speaker, the guitar, the player, etc....
If you want the haunted, well i dont know how it was recorded, but i´ve seen them live some times, nearly same tone. It was 5150, V30s and some of the greatest metal guitar players on earth, no magic.

Ah, one hint/thing i did wrong in the eraly days: Don´t judge the guitar signal alone, ever throw it at the rest of the playback....

BTW, do you like At The Gates? Playing Wacken this year, HELL!!

[TheArchitect]

You might look into a Kel HM1. Some love'em and some hate'em. They were designed specifically to not have the big top end boost. Only $130 each.

[lambro]

I currently have my budda rigged up with 2 vintage beyers

an M88 and a 260 ribbon, they compliment each other very well

the 57 is a 100% passable but it needs a bit more volume to get it working right, where the beyers are better for controlled volume recording, at least in my exp.

[brad.bjmmusic]

love the r121 on guitar cab

[rockstar_josh]

What about the Heil PR-30 or PR-40? Those are supposed to be nice new alternatives to the standard dynamic line-up. Condenser-ish mics that handle high SPLs? I don't know, just a thought - I've never used either one, but they're pretty well recommended. I still use the ol' SM57/e609.

[Sinister Blade]

Any clips we can hear to help you out??

Recording Metal guitar in an open room??

Gotta ask then, do you hear any room in any of the Road Runner bands guitar tracks??

[uncle duncan]

A Shinybox ribbon would be a good choice. They sound quite natural to me, and even though they begin as cheapo chinese crap, they're upgraded with new transformers and stuff. The beyer M160 is another nice ribbon. It's say it's a touch brighter than my shinybox, but not crispy at all. The Heil's are nice, but might be too detailed for the crunchy guitar. Definitely worth a try, though. I'd also look at that KEL. Seems like someone else came out with a similar mic, a dynamic I think, with flat response - which brings the RE20 to mind....

I always use a dynamic and a ribbon together, and decide later how to blend them. It seems like one by itself is never quite right. Plus a room mic aimed at the walls, to avoid phase problems.

[vernier]

I think electric guitar is the no-brainer compared to other stuff ...almost any mic, amp, or guitar seems to work.

[Darth Fader]

On my acual guitar session for a superb indie rock band (with punk/metal attitude), I'm recording 4 phase adjusted mics (+DI) at the same time that give me all sound colors I could ever need without much EQ.

That's:

MD421 LE (vintage capsule) -> Chandler Germanium (I personally love it)
Beyer M260 (which I prefer over the M160 for its bass roll off and less room sensivity) -> UA4110
Charter Oak S600 -> RND5012/silk (beautiful meaty mids, nada above 11kHz)
SM57 -> RND5012/silk (good to have)

Track count is high (30-50 audio tracks only for guitars), but I can tweak the guitar sound to my taste just by adjusting the 4 mic levels during mixdown.

On clean guitars, I put a C414TL on the guitar itself to add some strum.

I got three tops to choose from, Orange Rockerverb 100, Engl Richie Blackmoore, Mesa Dual Rectifier with very old tubes. The cabinet is the guitar players ENGL 4x12" (slightly off carpet floor) which sounded better than my MESA 4x12" for this band - he was lucky enough to find a good sounding ENGL cab.

It's my own personal guitar heaven. The roughmixes already sound like a record. Well, it's a freakin good band, too.

[cortisol]

Flying_Dutchman I am an ATG nut. They were my favourite band. I'm coming to Europe around the time of the festivals so well see if I can make Wavegothic Trefen, Download and Wacken! It's gonna be fun!

Sinister Blade - we're reworking things at the moment by changing our songs from 7 string to a new 6 string. So the songs are being adapted as we speak. This new guitar is giving us the exact tone of early Testament which we don't wont! Ha! So... new guitar > 5150 mkII > Senn 421.

We're playing with the equations at the moment.

vernier I find that guitar sounds are so closed mic'ed and not part of the acoustic environment that I find them sythetic and unreal. I can pull every other instruments sound much better than guitar sounds. The best heavy guitar sounds I've ever got where using a Marshall JCM900 1x12 combo amp an SM58 and some desk EQ mainly reshaping the mids!

Drums vocals bass synths I can do... clean and overdriven guitars easy but I'm yet to get there with heavy stuff to my satisfaction.

Thanks for the recommendations so far. I'm going to ask around and see if I can get to hear some ribbon mics working their magic on a distorted quadie.

Peace,
cortisol

[pootkao]

SM7b

Lovin' em on the amps these days.

I do agree with Fletcher about the 3k ice pick in the forehead thing with the 421's. I picked up one of the vintage white ones, hoping it may not suffer the same fate, but alas, it too sucks on guitar amps. Bass? Hell ya. Toms? Winner. Guitar? Screw off.

[James Meeker]

My favorite mics on electric guitar (not all at once mind you):

Royer 121
Sennheiser 441
Shure Beta 57
AKG 414 BULS


I find that the 57 and 441 are giving me the best "heavy and bright" sounds when you put the presence lift on the 441, the 121 and 414 give a good "heavy and dark" sound. Any combo of those 4 seems to get what I want for what that's worth.

[cortisol]

Darth Fader - that sound like guitar heaven man. Lots of options to mix with.

I'm gonna go away and try a few things and give myself some options during mix time too.

Thanks everyone for the input, mucho appreciated.

Peace,
cortisol

[84K]

I use 1-4 mics depending on my mood. I use different mics all the time through different chains. If I didn't change it up I would get bored. But there is always a dynamic mic in the chain. Sometimes it is alone, sometimes with a ribbon, tube, sdc, ldc, could be, all, some, whatever.

[TEMAS]

Originally Posted by 84K

I use 1-4 mics depending on my mood. I use different mics all the time through different chains.

Similar here.

I'm no expert, but it always sounds flat with one only mic. As soon as I add another mic and pan the two hard left and right, it sounds great. At the moment I put a dynamic up against the grille and a LDC about 2 foot away and pan them hard. I'll try some other things when I get the chance, but this works for me.

[Flying_Dutchman]

Originally Posted by cortisol

Flying_Dutchman I am an ATG nut. They were my favourite band. I'm coming to Europe around the time of the festivals so well see if I can make Wavegothic Trefen, Download and Wacken! It's gonna be fun!

Sinister Blade - we're reworking things at the moment by changing our songs from 7 string to a new 6 string. So the songs are being adapted as we speak. This new guitar is giving us the exact tone of early Testament which we don't wont! Ha! So... new guitar > 5150 mkII > Senn 421.

We're playing with the equations at the moment.

vernier I find that guitar sounds are so closed mic'ed and not part of the acoustic environment that I find them sythetic and unreal. I can pull every other instruments sound much better than guitar sounds. The best heavy guitar sounds I've ever got where using a Marshall JCM900 1x12 combo amp an SM58 and some desk EQ mainly reshaping the mids!

Drums vocals bass synths I can do... clean and overdriven guitars easy but I'm yet to get there with heavy stuff to my satisfaction.

Thanks for the recommendations so far. I'm going to ask around and see if I can get to hear some ribbon mics working their magic on a distorted quadie.

Peace,
cortisol

the red in the sky is ours :-)

What guitar are you using?

Marshall JCM series are great, i really like the JCM800 jubilee. 900s are kind of harsh imao. Move the mic more to the left or right of the speaker... Boost it with a tube screamer to give some more mid crunch, it works. Also Engl Straight is a great amp. Actually i use Krank Rev1 and Dual Rectifier and JCM 800. Layering the Amps really helps. But there are many great amps out there. On ervery amp its about finding the master volume magic, not too much pregain. In my opinion you can get a solid performance with the most tube guitar amps out there.

Testament rules :-) Ok, you´re not going for that guitar tone....

Royer 121 takes EQ very good, thats true. They offer much low-end and are on the darker side (ribbon), which you can easy lift up with an eq, cause the royer likes eq. I thinkj its in style to use ribbons at the moment and I´m quite shure that many records we like havent used a royer. So better spend your money on sth else in my opinion. For rock/blues guitars the royer is amazing, but i dont need it for metal. I know that many use it and are fine, thats fine, but im not happy with the royer in this application.

If the close mic signal doenst fit in the mix, i dont know why??
PM me and send me an example if you want.

Try VTAPE by virsyn, its magic.

Have fun!

[fooman]

How do you guys who use 4 mics + DI present this to the band while tracking? I mean, it's a lot of guitars thrown at you if you leave all the faders up. So do you just pick and choose the best mic or combo real quick and then mix and match later on?

[darkwavo]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I always seem to end up with this like 3kHz "ice pick in the forehead" kinda thing when I try 421's in general.

I agree , they sound ratty guitar and the new ones kind of plastic in general. I do like them on toms. that's pretty much it.
There is a whole world of mics which can sound dramatically different on guitar. shure sm7, akg 414, akg d 19/120/190 , gefell m7 capsuled mic, AEA r90 is my favorite

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by cortisol

Fletcher you are spot on about de-coupling the speaker box from the floor. This is part of the equation for my combo amp recordings but I hadn't factored it in for the 4x12! Doh! I do however mic the top speakers to avoid comb filtering from the floor.

You're not worrying about "comb filtering"... think about it... you have a mic about an inch from the source at 100-110+db SPL... "reflections off the floor" don't play into the scenario... but what does play into the scenario is a false sense of bottom that is created when you have the cabinet kineticaly coupled to the floor.

Because of this false sense of low end occuring in the room you don't dial enough bottom / fullness into the amplifier [because the bottom / fullness is being created in a false manner by the coupling process]... and what comes out of the speaker is to thin and harsh.

Get the cabinet up off the floor and you get to hear from the speaker what the microphone will be hearing from the speaker and you'll get a way better overall guitar tone no matter what transduction element is employed.

Make sense?

[Chunky But Funky]

+2 for EV ND468

The Royers are on the way so that may be my new vote. Also agree with two sources. Senn 421 / EV 468 (darker) or Senn 421 or 441 / condensor toward the center of the cone to brighten things up.

Doug