Dissatisfied with dynamic mics on distorted guitars!

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by allencollins

check out the beyer dynamic m201 Also try a ribbon like a M160.

Like this combo- song on my homepage has electric guitars with M160 and Beyer M201

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[drundall]

I think a lot of that sound like The Haunted is source based, in other words the guitar-head-cab-player combo is the biggest part of the equation. If you have those guys and gear you can put up a 57 and it will sound pretty good. Too many people leave this part out. Those guys are super good and super tight. Don't forget about the old garbage in garbage out adage (by that I just mean be really critical of your sound before micing).

[ARIEL]

Hey !!! so i just read you are using a 5150 mkII - here is your big prob in getting a proper heavy tone - it is too boxy sounding - I have used many amps and found that one the least usuable -it sounds more like a rock amp - I have had the orig 5150 which is great , plus the usual mesa dual and triple rec as well as the new krank - i was able to get great heavy tones - with just a 57 and maybe a 421 as well - what you might need to do for this amp is get one of those pedal eq's and take out some of the low mid stuff - 200-300 hz maybe a bit of 500 - it will help you slot in the tone easier for mixing . Also a tube screamer - with tone set to 0 a bit of gain on the distortion crank the output/volume of it - this will also tighten up your tone - But again the source of your prob is the amp head - get a 5150 or the new version of it All i do is metal productions for the most part - from at the gates style to heavier - so the art o metal tone is def a tough one

[tombak]

Originally Posted by rufus13

How about putting a new EV 635A in front of the cone? It'll cost you $85 and work fine, unless the source is somehow undesirable.

new or used 635 have given good results

[marshallplexi]

To the OP: If I were you, I'd try to get a 57, place it so you are reasonably happy with the sound, then put the 421 on the edge of the speaker. Move things around and if you can't get a sound you like, it means there's a problem with your guitar amp or mic preamps...

The 57/421 combo works on every guitar cab and it's been proven for a number of years (decades)...

What I'm saying is take the time to shape your sound with placement before spending your hard earned cash on a different mic. I've always found that mic combination on gtr cabs is a key element to get a great sound.

My 0.02

[Saxon-of-a-son]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Yesterday I threw up a TLM170 by itself on an '61 SG - Triple Rec - Marshall cab rig. Holy ****. It sounded great. I may have FINALLY found my one-mic metal guitar sound. ...for now

If you got the dough, you really, REALLY need to check this thing out on dirt guitar. I'm pretty blown away.

I'd like to hear more about the TLM 170 (R?). After lusting for five or six years, I may now be able to spring for one. How is the accuracy and detail? How does it handle high SPL?

I've been searching for a mic on distorted guitar that can capture exactly the the tone I'm getting out of my amp cabs. I'd like to hear coming out of my monitors the same tone I hear standing a few feet in front of the cab--all the detailed gnashing frequencies of the distortion-growl. I'd prefer close-micing, since the room has little noises. (yeah, I know: close micing not same as room 3 feet away. I just want tone, not ambience.)

Attempts individually and in combination: R-121 into 3124 (needs tons of eq to get close, but great low-end); e906 into Pacifica (a bit small sounding, a little smeared), TLM 103 into GR MEQ-1NV (detailed, but "weak"), PR-30 into 3124 (detailed and clear in mids, but not quite there in full frequencies. Some bottom missing). I end up blending all four for a good heavy distorted sound.

I'm going to try a MD 441U, then maybe the TLM 170. It would be nice to find two mics that together capture the full growl.

I'm using a Wolfgang into a Voodu Valve --Velocity 250 --1960 cab. The two fully parametric eq's on the Voodu Valve have given me the tone I always sought live, but recording it is another thing.

[intolerance]

I would say it really depends on the context of the recording. Personally, if it's a dense rock mix, (say, more than 4 stereo pairs), I've found that stacking tracks with a 57 works the best. 421's seem a little too 'fizzy?' when stacked, and condensers seem to loose some of the 'punch' that you seem to only get with dynamics. I know the 57 doesn't sound amazing by its self on playback, but in context stacked in a mix, it seems to hold up better than anything else I've tried. Take the extra time in finding the right placement on the speaker. I tend to like the diaphragm parallel to the speaker's surface, about an inch outside of the dust cap, usually the closer the better. Once you find your spot, DON'T TOUCH IT until you're either recording the next section of the song, or on to the next song. This is a nice way to ensure phase coherency at the end of the day.

If you're more of a minimalist, and just want a nice distorted stereo pair, then It's nice adding a 421 right next to your 57 for a little more depth. I usually like them phase aligned, but if it's only a stereo pair or two, sometimes certain phase relationships between the two can be used to adjust the character of the tone.

For me, the trick to recording distorted guitars and having it "sound like what I hear in the room, and in my head" is constantly check your sounds with consideration to the context of how it will be used in a mix. Really spend the time with mic placement and getting the sound you want at the source, always keeping the phase relationships in mind.

Just what I've learned through my experiences, give it a go. I rarely every use plugins or eq anymore. When you like the sounds you're recording, it's amazing how easy it becomes mix at the end of the day.

Cheers,

Aaron

[RollrCoastr]

I've had great results with the Shure Beta 57A (the blue/cornered one), closeup to the grill ... vary between edge and center of speaker, where edge is more bass, center is more treble ....

[OscarVein]

I've been using sm57/Beyerdynamic m201 combo for heavy guitar stuff. 90 degrees xy, fiddle around for placement, usually the "arrow" pointing dead center. Summed into 1 ch. 512 or similar. That's it.

[CrankyRayHanky]

(2) 57s are clearly better than 1! Since they're so placement sensitive, I put them side by side and collapse them to 1 track- and come away happy with the sound much faster

but my go to is a ribbon- CTripp Naked Eye rules

[rrraaalllfff]

I've been using a combination of Heil PR20 and a cheap china ribbon on combos and cabs. It's definitely not a harsh sound. I find that varying volumes between one and the other allowed me to sculpt the character of the sound in a different, maybe more dramatic way, than with regular eq-ing. Bus that to a mono track et voila. It's been working great for clean, and distorted guitars.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

for the haunted and some other european death/thrash metal a sm57 is still a good choice. If you like this sound i wouldnt care about the royer this much. I got one, but use it rarely for metal guitars. A Sm57 combined with a good condensator microphone is worth a try. When only one mic is avaible, or you want not to go into phase issues, the sm57 does the job, also the md421. Its more about amps, amp settings, cabinets little distortion boxes, the right speaker, the guitar, the player, etc....
If you want the haunted, well i dont know how it was recorded, but i´ve seen them live some times, nearly same tone. It was 5150, V30s and some of the greatest metal guitar players on earth, no magic.

Ah, one hint/thing i did wrong in the eraly days: Don´t judge the guitar signal alone, ever throw it at the rest of the playback....

BTW, do you like At The Gates? Playing Wacken this year, HELL!!

Studio Fredman guitar sound is a combination of SM57 center of the cone MD421(or just another 57) a little further to the edge of the other top speaker there is a U87 in the room but it didn't get in the mix much.
That info gleaned from my mate Adrian Earlandson, he had more mic's on his gear than anybody else in the band and took an unusually large interest for a drummer in such things as to what they where and where people stuck them. Well he is a bit of guitarist now on the quiet as well as proficient protools operator.

[lucey]

57s made after they went to Mexico are shit IMO. For that sound done better the older Shure SD 585s are the greatest all purpose dynamic mics ever. We got 6 for $150 from a used store after a metal head with a fancy day job died young. Snare, guitar, bass, etc ... the perfect 'presence' curve for general purpose and more detail than the new 57s.

SD 585
Cascade Fat Head
Senn 409
Ribbons
etc.

Guitars are pretty easy to mic but you have to listen. Move the dynamic around until you like it, maybe add a condenser where your ear would be and you're done.

[six_wax]

Awesome! Lucey's starting a "vintage 57" trend!

This turned into a great thread all of the sudden... Mic'ing techniques and all... I can't wait to try the XY suggested above.

Also not a 421 lover.

SM7s can be cool: Wider sweetspot, and more predictable behavior when tilting off axis.

I've seen guys throw RE20s on cabs with the grills removed. You can kiss the speaker since those have no proximity effect. I suspect putting an LDC in omni & damping the rest of the pattern is going for the same effect.

R121s are always cool... but watch your SPLs!

[rrraaalllfff]

i ripped the transformer out of a 57 that I use for guitars. It now needs about 12-15 db more gain at the preamp, meaning more noise too. But i find that some of the "honkyness" is gone, and the low end is increased a bit... or less restricted somehow. Might be worth a try since it's a cheap mic... even just as another option. Mine is powder coated red .

[burster1]

Pssst. The best SM57's are the old ones that have Uni-Dyne III on the side. I have three of these and sold my newer USA and Mexico 57's after getting them. And yes the 545 sounds almost as good as the old school 57's.

*changed 585 or 545.

[Rick Sutton]

I use R121's.

FWIW a ribbon mic IS a dynamic mic.

Burster- i've used a lot of 545 mics but never heard of a 585. what's its story?

[mdjice]

a sm57 and a c414 do the trick for me

[ensoniq]

Originally Posted by cortisol

I'm ready to try a new approach to recording distorted guitar tones.

The story...

My bro in-law gave me a Senn 421. One of the newer models. I know I like the older models on toms so I'm delighted to be given this mic!

I tried all kinds of placement with this thing. I found the optimum placement where the hype in the eq was most neutral and where I got the most bass end relative to still having a close mic approach.

I found that I had to alter the sound dialed into the amp in order to get a good recorded sound after mic placement! It didn't sound as good in the room compared to the sound coming from the amp at the start.

So I'm thinking that I want a nice flat condenser to just give me the true to life sound in the room.

I have been very satisfied with using an SM58 close micing combo amps. I can get great clean and clean edgey sounds as well as good lightly over driven sounds.

But for the seriously distorted 4x12 heavy sounds I am finding that I am carving the sound with eq into the mix rather than capturing the great sound at source in the room!

Recommend some LDC's that are towards flatness that you are using on distorted guitars.

I'm enjoying listening to the Roadrunner United CD, "Sacrament" by LOG, "The Haunted Made Me Do It" and "The Dead Eye" by The Haunted.

Any other approaches I can take for Heavy guitars then throw in your 2 cents.

Peace,
cortisol

pair of Sennheiser e914 !!

[Iggy Poop]

My room is less than ideal so I tend to stay away from room mics and stick to close mics. I've used 57, 421, sm7 and a few condensers too (dragonfly was pretty good). 57 always works for a dark heavy guitar sound but I've been really loving my sm7b lately. Easy to place, brighter than the 57 but still has that nice Shure tone. 421 is decent but always needs EQ and sometimes it's natural scoop doesn't work for the track. Just got a 441 on Ebay that should arrive next week. Never had one before so I'm looking forward to playing with it.

[grooveboxxx]

I like the R121/SM57 combo a lot. I also love the AEA R92. Also try the senn E609, some love that mic and some hate it. For clean guitars the U195 can be killer with the fat switch engaged.

[Josh Rose]

More and more I am moving away from dynamics (except ribbons) on elec guitar cabinets. At an FOH gig last night, I tried an sm57, senny 509 (black) and an akg 414, all on the same cabinet.

When comparing the 3, the 414 just sounded so much more ... Hi-fi. It sounded like the 414 was running through apogee converters, and the dynamics were running through an M-box. That's sort of how the difference of fidelity sounded between the mics.

Ribbons and LDC's are where it's at for electric guitar these days, for me at least.

[fuzzyguitars]

ac/dc tracked the guitars on their last album with the sm57/ md 421 combo


sounds massive to me!