Extreme - Pornograffitti

[JamesNylen]

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

While i agree the mixing in III sides isn't quite top class, i think it's still a great album, doesn't seem any worse than pornograffiti and i don't think the reason that it sold less was to do with the producer or how the kick sounded. Come on now. More than words sold that album.

After a while, once i'd listened to all three albums (to death), i have to say i like Waiting for the Punchline the most. I love the guitar sound. Gorgeous. Hell, i still want an N4. Which of the three albums (i'm discounting their very first one) i prefer the most changes quite often, though.

The biggest tradgedy in all this is nunos wasted talent. Have you heard his modern stuff, mourning widows, population 1, et al? Some of it is so terrible, i can't believe it's the same guitarist. It's almost like he hated being known for being a good guitarist so purposely went and just 'banged some chords out' or something. And, although sometimes over teh top, he needed gary cherone on vocals... nuno is no great singer. Someone needs to let him know his limits when it comes to that eh.

No doubt that he's still my favourite guitarist though.

I dissagree on the fact that nuno has wasted his talent. I'm guessing you never saw mourning widows live ? They were a 3 piece band and were super tight. They didnt put anything in the albums that they couldnt do live, so that maybe why production was low. If your a 3 piece band your not going to put keyboards, strings and all that excess in, infact I think its great when things are stripped down and you can hear the true musicians just play. Nuno still did many solo's in those albums, but I don't think nunos shredding is what made him so great. I mean everyone and there brother was shredding just as good as nuno in his heyday. One thing they didnt have though was his rthyms and nuno still has that. There is not one band in the mourning widows era that could play detuned guitar rthyms and sound so original like nuno(remember how detuning caught on with Nu-metal. Most of that era all sounded the same.) . Nuno has made it clear many times he doesnt want to be just another guitarist, and population 1 showed that. I'm just a young kid at 20 years old, and no other records I have shown my friends has made such a hit as the population 1 stuff. If it was an album that would of been promoted by major label it would have been a hit. You know how hard it is for people my age to be seen listening to stuff not in the current fad, and his cd was being passed around here like hotcakes and being cranked down the street by alot off people I know and I think that says alot in the current generation. I mean how could QPD and unhappy birthday not be hits? because there was no promotion, And if you havnt heard Nunos new stuff in dramagods then all you people missing the pornograffiti solos should be happy with it. Just go to www.myspace.com/dramagods

[JMWS]

For me "III Sides" is the one of the best sounding records ever! The guitar sound, aaaaaaaahh!! Everything sounds so warm compared to modern day records... I just wish Nuno would have doubled the rhythm guitars in some songs.

Does anyone know any scientific details how this guitarsound was made??? (I know it´s an ADA MP-1 and of course Nuno´s fingers what made the sound).

[The Beatsmith]

The N4 is a pretty distinctive guitar man. I still hope to pick one up one day. That's gonna contribute a long way to his sound. Use an n4 and you'll never be too far away...

I think the only think i don't like about 3 sides is the bottom end. The kick drum was weak and the bass doesn't have a lot of low end.

BUT, who really cares about that stuff. It's a great album, listen to the music man!

[The Beatsmith]

Originally Posted by JamesNylen

I dissagree on the fact that nuno has wasted his talent. I'm guessing you never saw mourning widows live ? They were a 3 piece band and were super tight. They didnt put anything in the albums that they couldnt do live, so that maybe why production was low. If your a 3 piece band your not going to put keyboards, strings and all that excess in, infact I think its great when things are stripped down and you can hear the true musicians just play. Nuno still did many solo's in those albums, but I don't think nunos shredding is what made him so great. I mean everyone and there brother was shredding just as good as nuno in his heyday. One thing they didnt have though was his rthyms and nuno still has that. There is not one band in the mourning widows era that could play detuned guitar rthyms and sound so original like nuno(remember how detuning caught on with Nu-metal. Most of that era all sounded the same.) . Nuno has made it clear many times he doesnt want to be just another guitarist, and population 1 showed that. I'm just a young kid at 20 years old, and no other records I have shown my friends has made such a hit as the population 1 stuff. If it was an album that would of been promoted by major label it would have been a hit. You know how hard it is for people my age to be seen listening to stuff not in the current fad, and his cd was being passed around here like hotcakes and being cranked down the street by alot off people I know and I think that says alot in the current generation. I mean how could QPD and unhappy birthday not be hits? because there was no promotion, And if you havnt heard Nunos new stuff in dramagods then all you people missing the pornograffiti solos should be happy with it. Just go to www.myspace.com/dramagods

Hey man, thanks for the reply

I've been to see nuno quite a few times and trust me - everything he did one pornograffiti and 3 sides, etc etc, he could do on stage. They are/were such talented musicians. They didn't have a problem needing to cut stuff down on stage as far as i was concerned. Perhaps it was hard to sing and play intricate riffs at the same time.

I think nuno's change in direction was simply his choice, and that's fine, he's doing what he's into musically nowadays, times change and so do people - i am just saying i'm not a huge fan of the new stuff. I've heard some REALLY BAD stuff from nuno.

'Times change' - and so did extreme - that's why i really like waiting for the punchline. That showed that they could change with the times, and their sound matured. Some classic songs on there. I would rather he/extreme stuck in that direction instead of the new stuff.

Also, honestly, i don't really love his voice - although his singing has got better and that shows in the dramagods stuff. But i still think gary cherone was better as a frontman. There's no two ways around the fact that he doesn't have the best/strongest voice in the world. I think the best thing he could do would be to find a singer and concentrate on the music and lyrics, and backing vocals.

I really tried to like his new stuff, but it just seemed very average. Which was strange, as it was coming from such an awesome musician.

Nuno is still my favourite guitarist. I mean, after jimi hendrix but hey, that's not too shabby a statistic!

[hourglass]

First, thanks to whoever dug up this thread.

I threw in my copy of Extreme II -- the very CD I bought back in the summer of 1990 -- while I was rearranging my control room today.

I followed that up with Skid Row's _Slave to the Grind_ and as always I gotta tip my hat to Michael - this shit STILL sounds amazing. The guitars on that Skid Row record are ****ing insane.

Second:

Originally Posted by allencollins

Yeah gary needs to be Bitch slapped. What a poser wannabe
He's the most untalented famous guy I know. ...

What are you smokin' dude? Cuz you should pass it along to the next guy, you've had too much.

I wish... shit, I would give my left nut if I thought it would help the cause -- I wish I could get someone as untalented as Gary Cherone to sing on my stuff. I've got a pile of metal songs waiting for a singer, and trust me, when I get carried away and daydream, Gary Cherone is at the top of the list (along with B. Dickinson and S. Bach...)

I managed to see Extreme live on the Three Sides tour and again on the Punchline tour. Both times he was absolutely on top of it. Sure, the first two songs were tuned down an extra half-step til his voice was in full swing, but he never missed a note.

Perhaps you're one of the people who think he "ruined" Van Halen. But - take a listen to the first Extreme record. That's proof enough right there that Gary Cherone can sing a Van Halen album. Maybe if EVH could have come up with a song half as good as Mutha then that VH album wouldn't have sucked so hard.

If you give a singer shit to sing, is it any suprise it sounds like shit?

ryan

[The Beatsmith]

Yeah, he was a great singer

Not sure what they were yapping on about earlier

Perhaps he can be a little over the top, but hey

Cheers

[bob st john]

hi all..

a good friend of mine sent me this link...and reading through all of this, i found it rather fascinating. it was with much trepidation that i even thought about replying to this, but it still seems there is a world of people out there who haven't forgotten the contributions of so many bands and producers to heavy rock. having had the pleasure to have been the engineer who worked with extreme on all four albums (as well as nuno's first solo effort), i recorded over 70 songs with the band before they got their deal with a&m. and yes, i recorded and mixed (most) of the abysmal-sounding first record (quite possibly one of my worst ). it isn't the intent of this post to relive that experience...but to offer some insight into the second album. anyone curious about these records is welcome to contact me.

first and foremost, i have to thank michael wagener for making it possible to have worked on the extreme II. in a time where so many engineer/producers didn't want to share the stage with anyone, michael made sure i was credited and paid well for my efforts. a first in my career...and without that opportunity i would not have been able to be as successful as i have been to this day. it wasn't without it's moments (and i haven't forgotten a single one) but for the most part, finishing the record in LA was made a pleasant and stress-free experience for all (we'll all never forget those dinners out in the valley), and although a good 40% of the record was recorded before we got to LA, the record bears the stamp of michael's exemplary skills; specifically in the guitar/bass sounds as well as the mix. watching him work was an eye-opener for me, and considering that everyone involved with the band were fans of michael's work, it was an honor to share that stage with him. while i DO remember the exact setup of the guitar sound (mic, mic pre and eq/processing), but since i noticed michael didn't volunteer it here, and in deference to what i feel is his intellectual property, i won't divulge it, save for the fact it was the ad/a preamp; mcintosh poweramp; and marshall slant cab with 25 watt celestions that made the sound. the rest is michael's domain...it was fascinating to watch him at work. of course, in the land of guitar tone, it IS the musician that made the sounds...and having spent a good 12 years of my life watching and recording nuno, i feel it was one of his most focused efforts. what you hear on the record is exactly what the band was about during that time period...aggressive and hungry. michael's mix captures it with full attitude...i don't think there was a mixer out there at the time who could have nailed it any better. one of the crazy things is, towards the end of the recording, the ad/a malfunctioned. it was sent to ad/a for repair (allegedly a power supply/tube issue) but once it came back, it NEVER sound the same again (on this record at least). it is most noticeable on "little jack horny." both "get the funk out" and "little jack horny" were recorded entirely in LA from scratch, these were not from the original demo sessions. the rest of the album's drum tracks (and a few vocal tracks; guitar bits and pieces, etc) were from the original sessions at courtlen studio in winter 1988.

when we went into the studio (courtlen recording, hanson, mass) to record the demos for extreme II, we actually knew we were attempting to get keeper drum tracks. knowing how stressed out the drummer would get if he knew that this was the REAL deal, we told him that these were "demos" and that we would be recording them again eventually. like extreme I and extreme III, extreme II was recorded analog with dolby SR (eventually, when the masters were transferred at scream studios in LA, it was bounced to mitsubishi X 850). but the "demo" recording was treated as a regular album recording, punching in and intercutting takes on 2 inch.

"when i first kissed you" and "hole hearted" originally were recorded on a tascam 388. in what was actually a peculiar twist of fate, the band had originally opted to re-record "hole hearted" so that the percussion elements of the sequenced track could be separated. after a few tries at re-sequencing, nuno threw out the entire concept. locating a 388 was, well, difficult. we eventually sent his guitar tech on a journey further north to rent one from a private owner. during the transfer to the 850, the last 8 bars of the song were found to have been erased, and recorded over with "seven sundays" (which eventually as on extreme III). i carefully flew in and looped the ending, re-recording the last few chords and matching them sonically to the demo (needless to say, the demo guitar sound was well, peculiar; seeing all the vocal tracks and live instruments were recorded with a lavalier microphone in nuno's parent's duplex apartment). originally, since pat badger wasn't around during the recording of the demo, nuno varispeeded the machine to sing the high part (which was later replaced/augmented in the studio).

that same 388 was used for a majority of the rat pedal direct guitars that were later used on part of in "am i ever gonna change" on extreme III. the timeline of some of the songs and when they were written is fascinating, as "am i ever gonna change" dates back to 1988 if i remember correctly.

i'm fascinated with some of the replies to this thread...seems there is a lot of misinformation out there...as THE person who did the majority of the recording work with extreme, it's interesting to see how some people have viewed each album. certainly...i've loved all the records...but that's all subjective. it took me 3 years before i could listen to pornograffitti and enjoy it...and another 2 before i could even stand extreme III. i remember the day i spoke with nuno...2 years after we finished extreme III. i said...you know i heard it the other day. the record. he laughed...he said he actually listened to it too. wasn't as painful as we remembered it. when you work with art...especially as an engineer (facilitator); sometimes it just takes time to distance yourself and treat it not as your own child...but as if you are admiring another. interesting..but i suppose just one of the rewards.

as far as people slagging nuno...look, i worked with the guy from when he was 16. complicated? sometimes. gifted...more than anybody here could know. royal pain in the butt? you KNOW it. it's hard to fall off that pedestal...even if you keep climbing back up on it yourself =) but...to sit in front of that guy in the studio...watch his mind (and fingers) work...has been something i've rarely seen. to me...it's not about those rippin' guitar solos...but about his innate sense of harmony and rhythm. i have yet to meet someone with that command. i lived through schizophonic (and like extreme III and IV, was listed as co-producer but nuno has a VERY large shadow to stand inside...and to be honest, the records are more a product of gary and nuno's imagination than anybody's...and that includes pornograffitti and extreme I).

some days? this is just a job

and the ever acerbic fletcher put it best..you can't always believe what the self-appointed deities say. for sure...i've seen some memories skewered in the all to bright shine of all that gold and platinum...

heck. at this point i'm just thankful i can remember DOING these records http://www.gearslutz.com/board/image...ies/abduct.gif

[Fast Castle]

Fantastic. Thanks Bob. More than anything else I'm curious about the detailia of Nuno's guitar playing and production on Porno, but like you say, some of that is Michael's intellectual property.

This is off topic regarding production, but can I ask you how much was Nuno playing throughout the production of Porno? I've heard stories of Neal Schon (sp?) in Journey (totally different band, I know) playing 9 hours a day during the production of Escape, and it shows... and I have this sense with Nuno on Porno, a sense of him being totally primed, peaking, almost out-doing himself track after track.

Anyway, thanks for sharing that. I'm sure a few people here will have questions for you.

[The Beatsmith]

awesome post!

[bob st john]

thanks fast castle and beatsmith for your comments...some days it's not easy even trying to remember this stuff (but those who know me are aware of my penchant for endless stories

when it comes to any engineer's technique, well, maybe i'm old school, but that's up to them to share. in the days of being able to send a completed protools mix file from one studio to another, few things irritate me more than a producer, a&r or artist asking me to "doctor" another person's work. much in the same way, what a specific engineer does or doesn't do is his personal domain. i'm just trying to respect that here. now my OWN techniques? i'm glad to share...personally i don't think we all share enough now for the curious...i still have every last recall note, mic diagram, patch setup for extreme III and IV...and those actually are my intellectual property (nb, i use the term intellectual rather loosely here anybody interested can email me or whatever...

your observations about nuno are pretty spot on. i don't recall NOT seeing him with a guitar in has hands at nearly any time (we were all staying in the same apartment complex just off of hollywood boulevard). only time i saw him without the guitar was when we were playing pool in the lounge at scream. without a doubt, nuno was COMPLETELY focused during the recording of pornograffitti. i still have the original demo versions of the songs (keep in mind they ARE the drum tracks you hear on the record), and a GOOD amount of the solos are identical to what is on the record (albeit perfomed with true fire). for sure, the rhythm parts are a different story. as i said, completely focused would describe what i was watching as we recorded. you have to remember, that recording this record was in the days before protools, and the solos are NOT composites, but were recorded and punched in ala the old linear method; it was rare to have the solo recorded and go back and fix a small piece (besides there were some days i was getting a reputation as "eraserhead" i don't miss the old analog method that much it was just the way we worked. i wish i could say how MUCH time we spent on each part, but that is so obscured in my memory at this point; i know that to record the typical solo was about 4-5 hours of work. although i can't remember exactly...i believe we spent a little more time on the rhythm tracks; although they were doubled.

by the time we got to extreme III, it was taking longer to record the parts as they had been SO focused on their demos (which nuno did while on the road for extreme II) and there was so MUCH from the demos that nuno wanted to incorporate (or keep) in the album (there are so many obvious instances on extreme III and at times the sound suffers for it). i won't get into a conversation about extreme III here, suppose that's for a different thread either way, to record extreme II was a much LESS tortured experience than extreme III. the demos...were the demos...and the performance on the demos for extreme II did not have that same fire as the record..which was as it should have been.

it's hard to say what influenced the record...but to me, it was the entire experience of DOING the record. working with michael, being in LA and surrounded by the support of the people at a&m (which at that time was still being run as an artist's label by herb alpert). it gave a feeling of REAL purpose...and one of those experiences you never forget. i think you really only get ONE chance to capture a band's first album (and in so many ways, extreme II was like a first album as recording extreme I was a veritable nightmare that i won't describe in this thread anyways). i'm more than pleased that even years after, the attitude and aggressiveness comes across. even if a lot of the world wouldn't have heard of extreme if it wasn't for "more than words" and "hole hearted." it's still a great rock album...even if it was near the close of an era that a lot of us miss...

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by bob st john

... while i DO remember the exact setup of the guitar sound (mic, mic pre and eq/processing), but since i noticed michael didn't volunteer it here, and in deference to what i feel is his intellectual property, i won't divulge it, save for the fact it was the ad/a preamp; mcintosh poweramp; and marshall slant cab with 25 watt celestions that made the sound. the rest is michael's domain...

Thanx for the great post Bob, it's good to see you here on GS.

Please go ahead and post everything you remember connected with the recording of that album, I don't mind at all, no such thing as MY domain, this is what gearslutz is all about, sharing our ways of recording. I don't completely remember all the details as in microphones, mic pres etc. I seem to remember that we used the Andy Brauer original 30W Celestion Marshall (I used that on all projects at the time) and the John Hardy M1 mic pres, the only outboard pres I owned at the time. And of course the ADA and the McIntosh amps. The ADA, as you noted, broke towards the end of the sessions and we had it updated to version 2 software. It came back and didn't sound the same ever again, BUT I did still have a second ADA with version 1 chips (true gearslut, even then ) and that is what we used for the rest of the recording, except "little jack horny", which was recorded with the version 2 box. I still have the version one ADA, sold the version 2 .

Bob, give me a call some time, would love to catch up.

[The Beatsmith]

recording a solo took 4-5 hours?

i think i need to spend more time on my takes, eh. i know it's for another post, but i really do love the raw sound of WFTP, and i think it showed extreme growing as a band, and changing with the times.

again, thanks for dropping a gem of a post on us

[bob st john]

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

recording a solo took 4-5 hours?

i think i need to spend more time on my takes, eh

again, thanks for dropping a gem of a post on us

yep. i know. believe it. and on extreme III it got crazier. in my eyes...the effort, and thought went into EVERY note nuno played. all that tone comes from somewhere...but the real genius in it is that he played it NEAR exact, live. but talk about a high-stress situation. remember, in analog (or just when using tape) once you erase it...it's gone. and nuno is a MAJOR perfectionist...so much so that by the time we were doing extreme III, there were dat laybacks of the live mic and board mix, no matter what we were recording (we didn't keep those, they were recycled every week) extreme IV was a little easier but i think we were all stoned =) on extreme IV, we got this brilliant idea to record the band kind of live...and nearly every song of the record is made up composites of manually edited live takes. still have scars on my fingers from the razor blade. yeah, analog baby, YEAH...

[Crash]

I was lucky enough to see Extreme on their III sides tour while they had the Heavy Metal Horns out with them. It was awesome.

In case anybody wants to hear what Cherone is up to go here. I wish this was a full album as it sounds incredible.

http://www.cherone.com/

I can't believe anyone would say this guy has no talent.

[bob st john]

Originally Posted by mwagener

Thanx for the great post Bob, it's good to see you here on GS.

Please go ahead and post everything you remember connected with the recording of that album, I don't mind at all, no such thing as MY domain, this is what gearslutz is all about, sharing our ways of recording. I don't completely remember all the details as in microphones, mic pres etc. I seem to remember that we used the Andy Brauer original 30W Celestion Marshall (I used that on all projects at the time) and the John Hardy M1 mic pres, the only outboard pres I owned at the time. And of course the ADA and the McIntosh amps. The ADA, as you noted, broke towards the end of the sessions and we had it updated to version 2 software. It came back and didn't sound the same ever again, BUT I did still have a second ADA with version 1 chips (true gearslut, even then ) and that is what we used for the rest of the recoring, except "little jack horny", which was recorded with the version 2 box. I still have the version one ADA, sold the version 2 .

Bob, give me a call some time, would love to catch up.

thanks michael! just really didn't want to step on toes with the intellectual property issue : )

...and i stand corrected...although for most of my life i believed those were the 25w speakers (so i've misinformed everybody by now i remember the andy brauer cab (that thing sounded just f'n amazing), fostex (i'm pretty sure) printed ribbon mic in the upper right side; hardy m1 mic pre (still the best to me); from there (and this is best as i remember) i believe you either routed the M1 through a urei 10 band graphic OR monitored with it...not sure if you had the bbe in the chain at that time...pretty sure you used some expensive cabling to run from that mcintosh to the studio, too...the bass setup is a blur. i just remember a WALL of stuff...god it seems like a century ago! anything you can add may jog my addled brain...just too many hours in front of protools for me to think straight anymore...

great to see you out here...i'll make sure to try to connect with you!

[jarbar]

Hey all.
In the day of Extreme II, III, IV, I was a big fan. I was still in high school and beginning my career in sound (live then studio).

One thing that has stuck with me to this day was something said by (I believe) Nuno or Bob - that when mixing III, they opted for a dryer sound as it tends to sound better loud. I'd never been a big fan of the lotsa-verb-on-snare sound and some of my favorite mixes have no (at least obvious) reverb - kind of like much of Tchad Blake's work. I'd always liked the dryer aesthetic in most cases - more in your face and immediate - and that quote just struck a chord. Turn it up and let YOUR room bounce the sound around!

Good job Michael and Bob on all those albums. A pleasure to listen to and many good memories.

Also, Bob - I seem to remember reading that you guys practically ran out of time mixing III, rushing to finish the last tune as the next clients waited outside. Sounds like fun. Good job!

[bob st john]

Originally Posted by jarbar

Hey all.
In the day of Extreme II, III, IV, I was a big fan. I was still in high school and beginning my career in sound (live then studio).

One thing that has stuck with me to this day was something said by (I believe) Nuno or Bob - that when mixing III, they opted for a dryer sound as it tends to sound better loud. I'd never been a big fan of the lotsa-verb-on-snare sound and some of my favorite mixes have no (at least obvious) reverb - kind of like much of Tchad Blake's work. I'd always liked the dryer aesthetic in most cases - more in your face and immediate - and that quote just struck a chord. Turn it up and let YOUR room bounce the sound around!

Good job Michael and Bob on all those albums. A pleasure to listen to and many good memories.

Also, Bob - I seem to remember reading that you guys practically ran out of time mixing III, rushing to finish the last tune as the next clients waited outside. Sounds like fun. Good job!

thanks jarbar...

i'm still amazed at the amount of people who listened to extreme III (i know i heard it at least twice it's timing...in the big timeline of rock music...was abysmal. i remember recording this hard rock album for a band up in long island that winter (just before we started extreme III) and the drum room was the big, cool sounding, ambient space. i wanted that same space for extreme III pretty badly. new river studio (now no longer with us) was a great place...nice people, but an anechoic chamber in comparison. we were SUPPOSED to go to criteria (and actually had the time booked that a&m neglected to cancel...not good business and part of the reason we got so stuck at the end of the project rushing around). but i believe nuno was bent on new river because of the stuff that michael had done there just before we went in.

nuno's recollections still amuse me. i've had more than one argument about him in terms of what "mixing" is. personally, the engineer is the mixer. the artist...well if he tells you he wants more reverb on the snare is that mixing? (BIG can of worms to open here so i'll keep the lid on). if you sit at the console and write a few levels on the guitar fader...is that mixing? certainly, if i played two chords on the guitar, would that make me the guitar player? big gray area on extreme III...because so much of the demos were incorporated into the album. so i'll give him SOME engineering credit LOL

but well...the good, i'm responsible for (stop the world, rest in peace); the bad (politicalamity...good god i STILL don't know what i was thinking using the 33609 limiter on the snare) is my fault too. it doesn't take a trained ear to know what happened to "cupid's dead." it's 1/4 drummer; 1/2 drum machine and 1/2 something we can't speak of. talk about bizarre...i actually think that "cupid's dead" is the rough mix we made during the recording.

i always hated that i had to invent the ambient space on the record from drum samples (one sample of which i had made in long island just before coming to florida). if the record had been recorded at criteria (on a REAL neve, not an 8108) it would have had a completely different sound. it's not that i'm not proud of it...i just knew what it actually could have been. the 6 months (believe it) we spent working at new river was awesome...we couldn't have asked for a better studio and staff. SOME of the songs have an in-your-face quality...but the mixing is SO all over the place...remember that that record was mixed in the order you hear it. which is why the mixes change so dramatically from warheads to rise and shine. certainly, "rest in peace" and "stop the world" are my favorites (although a peculiar process (i.e. insanity) of quantizing the drums via synclavier (really) caused an extra analog step that makes the drums NOT sound as clean as the original recording of "stop the world").

as i mentioned...extreme III is a whole different thread...one i'll gladly entertain but at the risk of self-aggrandizement i won't start it myself

as i've always been a fan of tchad's work....i understand your thoughts with the "dry" approach. and i'd LOVE to take credit for it...but it was just the space we were working in. all i can say...it was positively difficult to go from a nice wet room...to a mostly dry room. an awful lot of magic mix dust had to be thrown about the control room..............

and lastly...yes we did run out of time. we needed to sleep for just a few hours...between finishing "am i ever gonna change" and starting "who cares," i had a total of 45 minutes sleep. and then worked straight through from 7 am to 1 pm; full band, 80 piece orchestra, a console too small for the task and people waiting at the door. we tried to get the other clients to reschedule over at criteria, but after the aforementioned booking fiasco, they weren't interested in helping. so, i'm sitting in a control room, i smell bad, i've got nuno, and i've got this this this MIX to finish. there is a pretty fair amount of manual mixing in that track, with both nuno and i working the small faders on the neve (well ok...maybe THAT could be the mixing credit...kidding). just insanity. and all during this, the producer for the next session is standing in the door, looking at his watch, waiting to start his session (they eventually set it up in the b studio at new river). while sequencing the record (which was mixed to 1/2 inch analog) the assitants are running around behind me cleaning the room up of 6 months of our crap! i was at the airport an hour later...and back in boston in 3 hours. like a weird alice-in-wonderland story.

so was it fun?

yeah. minus the sleep deprivation part =) we all know this crap is the essence of what we do anyhow...protools has changed all of that forever. i still miss the good old fashioned analog studio (complete with a time clock and clients waiting at the door). it's amazing how that stress can fuel your creativity..........

thanks for your interest...

[ChaNce144]

First, I have to say this thread is facinating. Thanks, bob st. john for giving us so much information.

I think that the most interesting thing about the material in this thread is comparing it to Nuno's guitar player (I think) interview about making III. I read that interview so many times, it is practically committed to memory. The most enduring things I remember are the discussion about recording clean (and Nuno saying that it would sound better turned up) and his take on the final hours of the session (going up to the last minute).

I remember thinking how relaxed Nuno sounded talking about the sessions. Im going to have to go back and "read between the lines" to see if there is anything I missed.

[Crash]

Hey Bob, thanks for the recollections of your time working with Extreme. Do you still work with Carl Nappa or keep up with him?

[bob st john]

Originally Posted by ChaNce144

First, I have to say this thread is facinating. Thanks, bob st. john for giving us so much information.

I think that the most interesting thing about the material in this thread is comparing it to Nuno's guitar player (I think) interview about making III. I read that interview so many times, it is practically committed to memory. The most enduring things I remember are the discussion about recording clean (and Nuno saying that it would sound better turned up) and his take on the final hours of the session (going up to the last minute).

I remember thinking how relaxed Nuno sounded talking about the sessions. Im going to have to go back and "read between the lines" to see if there is anything I missed.

thanks chance...

you can read between whichever lines you want. i DO remember that interview, also. i really have no clue what nuno was talking about...when i read it i didn't know what he was talking about. actually i still don't

i'm fascinated that people read stuff in print and believe it to be the truth...i know otherwise. you most likely won't find nuno divulging any of this information you've seen here...so you can draw your own conclusions.

as far as carl nappa, i speak to him occasionally (just happened to talk to him this weekend actually). carl is nelly's engineer...you can certainly here his work on the past 3 albums. carl worked as my assistant for 3 years...i'm most proud of everything he's achieved since we parted just after extreme IV. carl's a great guy and a great engineer. carl...was an AMAZING assistant...in the days when you HAD to have an assistant...funny how those days are gone now...

[ChaNce144]

Originally Posted by bob st john

thanks chance...

you can read between whichever lines you want. i DO remember that interview, also. i really have no clue what nuno was talking about...when i read it i didn't know what he was talking about. actually i still don't

i'm fascinated that people read stuff in print and believe it to be the truth...i know otherwise. you most likely won't find nuno divulging any of this information you've seen here...so you can draw your own conclusions.

as far as carl nappa, i speak to him occasionally (just happened to talk to him this weekend actually). carl is nelly's engineer...you can certainly here his work on the past 3 albums. carl worked as my assistant for 3 years...i'm most proud of everything he's achieved since we parted just after extreme IV. carl's a great guy and a great engineer. carl...was an AMAZING assistant...in the days when you HAD to have an assistant...funny how those days are gone now...

Thanks for the response, bob. I hope I didnt come across as questioning whether you were being honest in your responses (I was trying to indicate that I think Nuno might have been less than forthright, not you) Considering how guitar mags (and any musician's mags for that matter) make money and do business, both the writers and the talent have good reason to make everything sound as positive and hunky-dory as possible. I mean, who is going to spend 1700$ (at the time) on the Washburn N4 if everyone thinks Nuno is a tool? If I am going to trust someones observations, Ill go with the person that doesnt have an endorsement stake it them

As an aside, I owned a 91 N4 for a long time (bought it used online in around 96 for all of 450$) and really liked it, but it was really a limited instrument. I could never get it to sound great through my amps and such. Little did I know that it sounded great in a mix, very mid-high rangy, just cuts through everything. Just like Nuno's sound on record. I also have an early version of the ADA MP-1, but strangely, not because Nuno used one (Paul Gilbert used one as well).

I don't know why I sold that. Actually, I do. My wife convinced me that I needed to get rid of some gear to get a Pod XT Pro (great for live stuff, soso for recording, as we all know). Same with an early year Peavey Vandenberg (like 89-90 or so).

I still belive that the Vandenberg is the only usable guitar that Peavey ever made.

[EDIT] A few more thoughts on guitar mags. I started reading through them again just recently, after devouring them as a teen in the late 80s-early 90s. Were they always so marketing-oriented, or has that happened recently? I mean, read through one now: The people being interviewed invariably show up in numerous ads in the mag, the gear they play is reviewed in the review section, their albums are showcased in the "what Im listening to" columns by the editors, etc.

I didn't notice it at all when I was a kid. I just assumed that I couldn't afford/find the gear that they were using anyway.

[dudleys100]

WOW, I love this thread. This takes me back in a great way

Thank you Bob and Michael for all the input. I have dug up all my old Extreme albums and am loving it. I had almost forgotten how great these albums are. Both in sound quality and song writing.

I was actually just listening to some old Anthrax and Metallica and I will be honest there was some rough mixing back them sorry if I am offending anyone, but for the Met boys they took a huge step up at the black album.

It was just nice to listen to Extreme and also a little Skid Row today and remember how wonderful these old staples still sound after being dissapointed with the Anthrax and Met sounds.

Thank you for posting all of this info Bob and Michael it is greatly appreciated by us all.

[ramjet]

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

I like III Sides a lot, but it's just not as fresh and funky sounding as Pornografitti. I think the drums on III sides aren't sounding very good.

hi

i have only just got into listening to extreme and i have not listened pornographiti but i have got III sides and i think that it rules. can't wait to here porno now. and by the way i also have one of nuno's solo albums and i reckon the fact it dosn't sound anywhere near as good as extreme stuff does is why i like it.

cheers ramjet

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by bob st john

extreme IV was a little easier but i think we were all stoned =) on extreme IV, we got this brilliant idea to record the band kind of live...and nearly every song of the record is made up composites of manually edited live takes. still have scars on my fingers from the razor blade. yeah, analog baby, YEAH...

LMAO

Did you have a few of those moments where you’re looking at the razor & trying to figure out what might've been less painful…slashing your wrist or slashing the tape?!

I remember back in the day, my mom picked up 'Porno' because of "Hole Hearted" & "More then Words" and was subsequently HORRIFIED by the rest of the CD so I ended up with it!



I remember diggin' that reecord for what it was & thought Nuno was brilliant, at the time probably the "best" rock gee'tar slinger since Eddie but overall I didn't like the disc that much. Was a little too 'hair metal' for me...

Fast forward a few years & one of my guitar player friends jammed "Punchline" in the CD player while we were driving around after school one day and I was like "Oh man...NOT Extreme! Don't put THAT in!!!" NEVER expecting to hear such a stripped down record that really, just kinda kicked my ass! I love(d) how stripped down that record is...how much space & nuance there is around the tones. Just a band in a room...what an amazing concept! Especially now...11 years later that kinda thing just doesn't seem to fly anymore unless it's been 'Toolzed' to death.

I still pull it record out once in a while and have NO idea how to count the post guitar solo breakdown in "Hip Today" before it snaps back into the chorus! I swear they dropped a beat or something...some weird 7/8 over 4/4 thing...pretty nifty!

Anyway, I've always wondered what went on with "There is no God." I can hear the guitar leakage that's buried on the left side during the solo & it pops out a little more at different points of the song, probably from another take. Just a punched solo or the whole tune in bits & chunks? Could you spill the beans & tell us what effect is on the backing vocals & some of the 'last' lines of the verse vocals? I've always loved that, whatever it is! Sounds like some kinda demented flanger! LOL Really anything you could volunteer about making that record would be killer!

Thanks much!

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by bob st john

thanks michael! just really didn't want to step on toes with the intellectual property issue : )

...and i stand corrected...although for most of my life i believed those were the 25w speakers (so i've misinformed everybody by now i remember the andy brauer cab (that thing sounded just f'n amazing), fostex (i'm pretty sure) printed ribbon mic in the upper right side; hardy m1 mic pre (still the best to me); from there (and this is best as i remember) i believe you either routed the M1 through a urei 10 band graphic OR monitored with it...not sure if you had the bbe in the chain at that time...pretty sure you used some expensive cabling to run from that mcintosh to the studio, too...the bass setup is a blur. i just remember a WALL of stuff...god it seems like a century ago! anything you can add may jog my addled brain...just too many hours in front of protools for me to think straight anymore...

great to see you out here...i'll make sure to try to connect with you!

Yes, it's coming back to me: the Fostex MR11P ribbon and I think we used a Countryman lavallier (sp?) mic as well and maybe an AKG 535 ? The EQ was a UREI 530, 9 band graphic EQ, still love those for guitars, just put 'em in the chain, don't even have to change any settings from flat and it makes it sound better. And yes, the BBE 802, we used it on some tracks and didn't on others. For some reason I don't remember the bass gear and chain at all.

[The Beatsmith]

I'd just like to say thanks again for this thread. We're talking about some of my favourite albums here, and although i don't even make rock music myself, really influential for me when i was growing up - i didn't think i'd ever get to hear/exchange with the guys who worked on that album/those albums.

Thanks again

[transfiguration]

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

I'd just like to say thanks again for this thread. We're talking about some of my favourite albums here, and although i don't even make rock music myself, really influential for me when i was growing up - i didn't think i'd ever get to hear/exchange with the guys who worked on that album/those albums.

Thanks again

ditto

Many thanks to the both of you for your contributions. Extreme's first album, Pornograffiti, III Sides, and Waiting For The Punchline all hold significance for me.

Kind Regards, trans

[bob st john]

Originally Posted by mwagener

Yes, it's coming back to me: the Fostex MR11P ribbon and I think we used a Countryman lavallier (sp?) mic as well and maybe an AKG 535 ? The EQ was a UREI 530, 9 band graphic EQ, still love those for guitars, just put 'em in the chain, don't even have to change any settings from flat and it makes it sound better. And yes, the BBE 802, we used it on some tracks and didn't on others. For some reason I don't remember the bass gear and chain at all.

thanks michael...

i never actually knew the model number of the fostex...you solved a big mystery for me. i have a feeling the lavalier mic wasn't there, as we blocked off the amp area so gary (aka gumby) didn't inadvertently move anything around...gary was notorious for his antics in the studio, and not paying attention. i'll never forget the day he knocked over everything in the studio while he was arguing with nuno over the pronunciation of the lyrics in "more than words."

the bass gear is a blur...somewhere somebody has a picture of pat and i while we were recording the bass to pornograffitti (the song, that is); but it's all locked in my subconscious now...might need a hypnotist to bring it back

thanks for the input...

been a LONG time since i pulled out that old bbe this is just making me feel old =)

[hourglass]

Originally Posted by bob st john

i'm still amazed at the amount of people who listened to extreme III (i know i heard it at least twice it's timing...in the big timeline of rock music...was abysmal.

Bob,

I recall the day III Sides was released. I was in college, delivering pizzas to make ends meet. I was stuck working the lunch shift that Tuesday and I was just hoping to score a few measly tips enough to get some gas and the new Extreme CD.

I don't think I got much gas. But I did get the CD. The minute I heard "Stop the World," I knew it was money well-spent.

ryan

[bob st john]

Originally Posted by hourglass

Bob,

I recall the day III Sides was released. I was in college, delivering pizzas to make ends meet. I was stuck working the lunch shift that Tuesday and I was just hoping to score a few measly tips enough to get some gas and the new Extreme CD.

I don't think I got much gas. But I did get the CD. The minute I heard "Stop the World," I knew it was money well-spent.

ryan

i'm flattered by that comment, ryan. as a kid, i saved my money working construction so i could buy VH 1 and VH 2...i will never forget the raw power of those records...and they still sound as fresh to this day.

stop the world was one of the top 10 difficult songs to mix i've ever worked on. i can't say if i'm embarrassed or proud to say it was 4 days of mixing. depends on what day you ask the original drum recording of the song sounded great, but nuno insisted on having it "repaired." seems that billy gibbons of zz top told him about his programmer who could essentially quantize the drum tracks. we spent probably two hours trying to play the first 8 bars of stop the world, but nuno was unhappy with the drums, culminating with him throwing the guitar down, leaving the room (i.e. the well used "tantrum")

with that...the original analog dolby sr 24 tk master went on it's way to get "repaired." naturally once it was fixed, it was a second generation analog copy. great. if you listen to the drum fills, you'll notice something peculiar; not only are they the same 3 or 4 fills, but there is a rather strange phase effect that was unavoidable. trying to work around that was a difficult thing, as i've always liked to use the tom leakage in the mix...but it sounded, well, peculiar...

it was spring here in south florida...rained every day...i do remember that well. humid? oh yeah...nuno got involved in a rap project he was working on in studio b at new river so i was blissfully alone while creating that mix. in case anybody wondered, that IS in fact the demo version of both the solo and backing track in the middle of the song...a roland dr. rhythm and battery powered amp made the sounds on that part of the song that nuno recorded while on the road for extreme II. nuno was pretty much completely tortured...as he had major demo-itis from living with the songs for so long...and he was constantly torn with wanting the demo, wanting to recreate the demo, or trying to create something new. let's just say it got difficult from time to time and leave it there.

to this day, stop the world is one of my favorite mixes...although i knew how much better it would have sounded if the drums had been bounced twice. i still use the song on my demo reel to this day, although no body really knows who the band is now!

a little aside...there are actually two versions of the mix; one version is on the album and has the key change at the end for the transition to "god isn't dead," the single version ends in the same key as the song...editing the single version took FOREVER...it's too bad it only made light of day on MTV for a short time...

i actually have all the recall notes for that song, right down to the last knob and mic cable used (thanks to carl nappa...who was my assistant at the time). it's strange looking at that and realizing it was 1992...

thanks for your interest...

bob