Extreme - Pornograffitti

[colinmiller]

At least we can be sure Wally's mom is proud!

[yairhol]

Hi Michael and Bob,

I'm going into the studio in a couple of weeks to record some funky metalish guitar tracks which I would want to sound similar to Nuno's on Pornograffitti.

Regarding the recording and mixing, how many tracks does Nuno have going on simultanously in the funky rhythm songs (get the funk out, Pornograffitti, etc.)?

Is it something like two tracks of the same material recorded seperately and then each panned to a different extreme to get that thick guitar sound?

How about the bass? Did Pat play mostly over Nuno's low notes so that it sounds like the guitar sound is even bigger?

Thanks for your replies.

[bob st john]

as i actually recorded those tracks, i can tell you that there is rarely more than two tracks playing. occasionally, you may hear a cleaner set doubled...but since it was about 20 years ago, i may have forgotten a few generally, it's two tracks...tightly doubled (i.e. no real variations in performance from left to right unless intentional). as far as i know, the tracks were panned extreme (pun intended) left and right, although michael would be a better resource of how that was done as he mixed it.

elsewhere on this forum, you'll find more info on the equipment used, etc...you may want to do a search on that one, as i can't remember the thread...but it was most likely "extreme: pornograffitti."

that "tone" is a question that is asked more than any other...i wish i could make people happy and say it was "this piece of gear or that piece of gear"...but that sound is what comes from nuno...although you may be inclined to say that nuno is a derivative of so many other 80's guitar players, i feel that he is in a class by himself. that sound is more a function of his technique and the way he hears things and interacts. i've recorded nuno playing through marshalls and hiwatts, laneys and fenders, ampfarm and a rat pedal direct. they all sound uniquely like him...go figure...

[yairhol]

Thanks Bob, great reply.
I've read the other excellent thread about Pornograffitti.

What I wanted to know and which you've answered is how many tracks do we hear nuno playing simultanously while doing rhythm work and you said that there are probably no more than 2. I would guess that there is more than one though otherwise how can such a big sound be achieved.

I'm also guessing that they are different recorded performances of the same riffs and not one performance copied to another track and panned to the other extreme (pun not intended but I can't help it).
right?

[mwagener]

Hey Bob, hey yairhol

Yes, Nuno mostly recorded two tracks, two separate performances for the rhythm guitars. The two tracks were panned fairly hard left/right in the mix and had a small wooden room reverb on them and possibly a short 1/8 note delay, very faint in the back.

I have to agree 1000% with Bob on Nuno being the one making it actually sound like it does. 90% of the sound of a guitar player is creasted by his hands and it wouldn't matter much which amp he/she uses, if it's at least in the same distortion range.

[tomdarude]

Originally Posted by mwagener

90% of the sound of a guitar player is creasted by his hands and it wouldn't matter much which amp he/she uses, if it's at least in the same distortion range.

can´t we make that a sticky please


allthough I might be even more gearlusting with guitars, amps, pedals...than other gear (naaaaa...not really ), I think this is the (bitter ??) truth!!!


cheers tom

[yairhol]

Thanks for the reply Michael.

I'm curious to know if Nuno used to come to the studio with several guitars and if they were his N2 and N4 signatures from Washburn.

Also, did Extreme record first the drums, then bass then rhythm guitars, solos and then vocals or some other way?

How were the other guys in Extreme? Was Pat a good (excellent?) bass player? what about the drummer?

In their last album (Suadades des Rock), did they record in the same way as they did their previous albums?

So many questions so little time...

[PureAudiouk]

Just want to give a massive thankyou to Mr Wagner and Bob!

The extreme records shaped a large part of my music tastes and production style!

Bob, great tip about recording snare from the side (this threads old now.. but you said it a while ago). Gonna play around with that!

In particular, Extreme III is my favorite record of all time! it's absolute pretentious brilliance! It's that fine line that nuno seems to tread of being amazing and just plain rediculous..

When people ask me to describe extreme I say 80's cock rock! sheer class!

the last 3 songs, the arrangement and crescendo of III sides gave me goose bumps more than just the first time I heard it. It leaves me frustrated that there isn't more!! truely brilliant arrangement and execution.

the guitars on III are epic (II is also great!) and it is mixed beautifully. IT IS the reason I'm now a producer/engineer. I'm 25 and I'm going to see them in the coming months when they tour the UK... they are timeless!

thanks again Michael and Bob!

Paul

[Crash]

This thread has loads of info:

Extreme - Pornograffitti

It is the one Bob referred you to I believe.

[CarlNappa]

Bob,
I wish I had the time back when you were tracking in LA to be there.
It would have been a lot of fun, and nice to be back in a studio again after all these years.
CArl

[yairhol]

Originally Posted by Crash

This thread has loads of info:

Extreme - Pornograffitti

It is teh one Bob referred you to I believe.

Yep, I read it already but I don't recall anything about the other members and technicians or lack of for the band members.

[Crash]

Originally Posted by Happy

Bob,
I wish I had the time back when you were tracking in LA to be there.
It would have been a lot of fun, and nice to be back in a studio again after all these years.
CArl

Not to go go flying completely off topic... If this is the Carl I think it is, Brian Evans said to pass on a "hey.." your direction. If not, continue on...well continue on anyway. Back to your regularly scheduled program...

[bob st john]

re: carl. we could have used you in L.A. something was missing besides, i forgot how to record, so i let nuno do it (just like old times). okay. inside joke...

certainly, i didn't see nuno playing too many guitars but the N2 or N4 when we were recording. there really wasn't a lot of equipment. simple IS better.

the style of recording varied on the albums; on extreme II, the basic tracks were recorded at courtlen recording in hanson, ma (that is mainly the drums with the exception of "get the funk out" and "suzi," which were recorded with the rest of the overdubs at scream in LA). i believe we recut most of the bass and all of the guitars when michael became involved on the project, as well as transferring the basic tracks from 24 TK analog 2" (with dolby SR) to the mitsu X-850. i believe the mixes were to 1/2 inch analog.

on extreme III, which was the most heavily demo'd album of their catalog, was recorded at new river in fort lauderdale (RIP). we recorded drums for all the songs first, then recorded the overdubs for each song in the order you hear them on the record. really. each song was completed (except for mixing) and had extensive rough mixes (cupid's dead is actually a rough mix) before we moved on to another song. mixes were to 1/2 analog.

extreme IV was recorded at criteria in miami, in studio a (the big room) on their wonderful 8078. probably the easiest console ever to get sounds on (everything you hear about them really IS true). the band played live (no click track, no headphones) and just "grooved" (i use that word loosely) off of each other. we did multiple takes of each song (3-5 takes) and it was recorded entirely analog. the takes were comp'd via plain old razor blade editing. extremely time intensive..and agonizingly slow, even though i used two studers to assemble the final takes. this record was done in a fairly unorthodox (read: expensive) way; we didn't move on to another song until the song was finished AND mixed. most of the record was mixed at crescent moon studio in miami. so we had to keep criteria locked out while we spent a day (usually at the end of the week) at crescent moon, mixing. 80% of the record was done this way, with the tracks with mike mangini playing drums recorded at sound techniques in boston, and mixed at the hit factory in nyc (recorded and overdubbed in the traditional way, again, analog). all mixes were to 1/2 inch analog.

the most recent album was a curious amalgam of all of these approaches. some songs had a good amount of the demo work that nuno recorded at his house (some guitar and some vocals were from the demos). the tracks were recorded at NRG studio in L.A., with the drums set up in the main room, guitar and bass in iso booths. although i'm not quite sure what was used in the mix (nuno mixed the record himself), some of the bass was overdubbed at NRG, as well as some of the guitar. nuno recorded the majority of the guitars by himself at his home studio, some of which was amp'd and some of which was a plug-in.

people always ask about how good was this guy or that guy in a band. it's completely subjective. extreme functions as a complete unit; i don't see anyone in the band having had major success outside of that unit. they are, to me, what the best of bands represent when you can see this wondrous synergy of 4 people working together. yes, it's complete with all the dysfunction that goes with bands...but in the end it makes a beautiful, sonorous combination. i don't want to be disingenuous but given the nature of the internet, i'll reserve my public comments about anybody's skills in the band...no matter what the lineup, i always enjoyed working with them.

thanks for the kind words, paul. i'm flattered that those records could be a part of your inspiration! it's a funny thing about extreme III, people either love it or hate it. some say it sounds beautiful and spacious, others say it sounds one-dimensional. although i'm certain i mentioned it before...i DO wish we could have recorded it in a more ambient room...i feel the drums would have sounded a bit more natural had we actually recorded it a criteria (we had originally booked criteria for the record but changed at the last minute). it's funny that anyone even knows about extreme I...it's a little scary for me to listen to (read: to my ears it sounds bizarre....talk about growing up in public!). i'd love to be able to qualify what it was that influenced me to be an engineer...but it's what i had always wanted from as long as i could remember (at 9 years old i saw my first cassette machine and was fascinated with the concept of recording things!). for sure, bob clearmountain, mike shipley and hugh padgham were my influences...although i can't ever say i've every been successful at emulating any of them go figure...

enjoy the band when they're there...it is, without a doubt, the best line-up of extreme ever...kfigg captures so much of what nuno always wanted and it's a joy to watch the whole band play together...you won't be disappointed!

[colinmiller]

I seem to recall during the time III sides came out that nuno was really disappointed because he worked so hard to get the ultimate guitar sound. But when it went from analog to 16bit CD the sound got lost. I remember listening to the CD at the time and thinking 'You mean a guitars sounded even better than this?' I don't even know if that's true or not, but I can't imagine hearing the direct 1/2" masters. They must be ungodly.

[bob st john]

well...one must understand, that with nuno, he suffers from that same sort of paranoia a lot of brilliant creative people have to endure (i actually believe that if he could come along with the CD to your living room and set up your stereo and make sure you listened at the right volume, he would and that would be that he simply hears things that only HE can hear. you can't make a record for the .001% of the public who can even tell the difference between a .25 db vocal up mix or not (extreme III didn't suffer from this...but the later records did). as an artist myself and a professional...even though i believe it crazy, i did my best to support (and encourage) his pursuit of perfection...even if he was the only one who could appreciate it. although i'd be hard pressed to identify, 10 years later, which mix had the vocal .5 db up or .5 db down. although i'm certain i at least "thought" i heard a difference back in 1992

i can't say that when i mixed the record, i listened to the 1/2 inch analog and made mix adjustments...i more consider the final print to 1/2 inch as being yet another canvas to work on. if i had my choice, i would much rather have printed the mixes to an atr 102, but the studio didn't have one (mixes on extreme III were done at new river studio on the neve 8108 and printed on ampex 499 at +6 to a studer A-80). did it "sound" ungodly? i can't really say so. i prefer to think that the process of printing to analog helped smooth out the peaks. although i would have preferred recording the guitar onto the analog 2" rather than the X-850; i feel that would have made a bigger difference, sonically, for the guitar. even though the X-850 had apogee converters...it was very peaky and thin sounding for my ears. about 7 years ago, i had to transfer the tracks from the orchestral side of extreme III for a project that gary was working on. and listening to the drum slave mix on the digital (through protools after the digital transfer) reminded me of how unbelievably flat and lifeless digital could sound back in the 90's...as my experience of the album was more through the finished CD, where the drums sound much warmer than the digital slave reel mix.

bob ludwig's mastering was one of the best interpretations of my work...it rates as one of the top 5 masterings of my work that i've heard. loud and punchy...without being compressed to oblivion as so many modern records have been. again, another step in the process...

we can talk about all this stuff...but there is no way the end user can have a "copy" of the 1/2 inch master. all of these things are merely part of the process of making a record. in these days of 192k mp3's, people don't realize how GOOD the 16 bit/44.1 file actually sounds!

in a perfect world, i'd love to be able to hear the mastered version as a 88.2/24 bit file...but for the average consumer, they're happy with the convenience of an mp3. such is the nature of the music BUSINESS...yes we are selling oven mitts this week

but oh, to hear those mixes coming out of the console again back at new river...

[yairhol]

Wow bob, these stories sound awsome and how I wish I could be a fly on the wall in those studios at those times...only I'd have liked to live more than 3 days.

I'd love to hear your opinion on the semi-new trend where musicians are building their own digital home studios. Could have Extreme in today's average home studio recorded their albums where 95% of the equipment is virtual inside the PC and still get those awesome sounds that they did back then when everything was analog?
Assuming of course that they have a good mixing engineer.

Thanks.

[guitardave]

Hi there Bob and Michael!

I have to say, as a guitar playing Extreme fan, this thread is absolutely fantastic! Thanks so much for your input, it's greatly appreciated.

I have 3 questions if I may...

Firstly, did Nuno use his new signature Randall amp for any of Saudades?
Secondly, did they record any extra tracks for Saudades that didn't make it to the album, but might make it to see the light of day in the future?
And lastly... I'm sure I recall reading an interview with Nuno, back in the 90's, that there was an extended version of Cupid's Dead, that was about 12 minutes long! Is this true? And if so, is there a version readily available out there to listen to, or is it hidden away in the vaults?!

I hope you can find a spare minute or two to answer! Thanks again for all your input on my favourite band!


Dave

[dactilomono]

Hi everyone,
just dropped in to say this is a fantastic thread and that i see Extreme IV as one of the best recordings ever done... for me and lots of people i know it's considered as a "standard", i'll never understand why it's been so underrated...
It's been probably the perfect interpretation for hard rock in the context of mid nineties.That's how a record should sound and be recorded also...
Thank you guys for the hard work on cutting and pasting tape and everything else...
(Excuse me for my english,i am from Spain...)

[yairhol]

Hi,
Here's another question regarding a song in Pornograffitti - "song for love".
The vocals sound excellent when the band sings together. There are many parts like that in the song. I would like to know how many people have actually sung there or is it some kind of vocal multiplier.
I don't recognize the voices except Garry's of course and pretty sure nuno is there too but it just sounds huge like maybe 8 people sung together.
Can you guys please elaborate on what's going on there?

Thanks.

[bob st john]

sorry for the delay...been busy the past month

first of all, guitardave:

thanks for your kind words!

nuno's randall does show up on the album; i'm pretty sure it's on "take us alive" as well as some of the tracks with the octave pedal (can't remember the songs right now). otherwise, nuno was using a combination of tracks from a marshall JCM 2000 and rat pedal; and some of the demo tracks or overdubs with amp farm (really). i can't say exactly as i recorded only the basic tracks; the majority of overdubs nuno recorded by himself at his studio in L.A. i did leave the same marshall setup as we used it in the studio, but i'm not sure it actually ended up getting recorded as someone moved the mics after i left (gremlins

i do think we recorded some extra tracks...but from everything i saw, it was such an incredibly arduous task to output what you hear on the record, it may be a while before we see anything else. consider that the bonus track on the european release is a demo i mixed in 1985 (americocaine...the first song i ever recorded with extreme...nuno had been in the band for about a week when i got them free studio time to cut a 4 song demo and that probably means there's no extra completed tracks "floating" around.

"cupid's dead" is just as you hear it (6 minutes is more than enough there aren't any longer versions; although there are two versions of the song. the version that is included on extreme III (no horns) and the version with the live horn section. i think it was included on the cassette version (really) and later on some compilation discs. if you can't find it, message me here and i'll point you in the right direction. i never really understood why the band opted to use the horn version as a bonus track and not on the actual cd (nuno explained to me at the time that they wanted people to hear "the song" and not the song with the horns distracting the listener). either way, the horns are pretty spectacular (the session was literally 8 hours of recording...it's impossibly polyrhythmic and doubles a lot of the guitar rhythm patterns). the spectacular ed calle did the charts as well as conducting the session, that included arturo sandoval on trumpet (the section was bari sax, tenor, alto, trombone and two trumpets...if i remember right). both versions as released are actually the rough mixes i did (we did extensive roughs as we went through the project). although i mixed the song again while doing the rest of the mixes, the rough mix always seemed to sound better (in my opinion, it's a might peculiar sounding track due to the bizarre drum replacements in 70% of the track...i never agreed with that concept).

dacitilomono:

thanks for YOUR kind words on extreme IV. yep, it was a cut and paste adventure. in the purely physical sense! it's amusing to me that people either love that record or hate it. i think it was a bit of a bitter pill to swallow for fans who loved the produced, layered sound of the earlier extreme albums...and then here was this totally stripped down production. only a few of the songs actually have double tracks of the guitars...as well as only a few songs having background vocals (which were always a big part of extreme's sound). as i'm sure i mentioned...i love the way the record sounds...but it's very sparse. for me, it's one of my favorite analog recordings that i've done...no dolby sr, no funky digital machines...just the neve 8078 and studer 827. all with that great room at criteria. i don't think it can get more pure than that. and yes, mixed to analog 1/2 inch as well (ampex atr 102). every now and then i'll listen to the record (still some emotional baggage on that one and it seems to have aged better than some...at least we weren't using gated reverb! i actually think there ARE some outtakes from extreme IV, however...somewhere i think i may have the original 8:45 version of "tell me something," as well as a couple of other songs that i believe became b-sides in europe.

lastly, yarihol:

i'd love to be able to tell you that it was some sort of studio trick, but the bottom line with extreme...is that IS what they sound like. if those three guys stood in front of you and sang it right now...you'd have your mind blown. rarely have i seen three vocalists compliment each other so well...it's the perfect balance of tones. those backgrounds are (most likely) either 3 or 4 pairs of the guys singing the harmonies together (i would just have them move back and forth from the mic to balance them live as we recorded them). typically, the vocals were recorded with a b&k 4006 or 4003...just can't remember it now. sometimes i would rebalance (have them move physically) their position when we would move to another pair of tracks, so they didn't sound exactly alike. so basically, there is anywhere from 18 to 24 voices singing in those sections. i feel you get much more air and ambience when you record groups together, versus recording each person separately. it really shows on extreme's records...

hope this info helps inspire and amuse

gotta get back to work...thanks for everyone's kind words as always!

bob

[yairhol]

Thank you bob for sharing all that pool of knowledge. This is the most informative thread that I've ever read.

My next question is a simple one regarding Nuno's sound: Does he use compressors in order to achieve a more beefy sound?

Thank you very much for sharing.

[bob st john]

hahaha. if he was using a compressor, then he probably wasn't all that aware it was inline

all kidding aside...on extreme III and IV, the last part of the guitar signal path after the routing (both projects were mic'd with a combination of neumann 87/47) was typically an LA-2A...just about 1-2 db of reduction to control it and add some crunch. other than that, on extreme IV (which was recorded analog 2 inch; 499 @+6) i hit right around 0 db so we'd get a little tape compression. on extreme II and III, the guitar was recorded to the mitsubishi X-850, so there really wasn't much of a chance of analog anything :/

funny how i can remember crazy stuff like that (i guess when you keep staring at a meter for 6 months it can burn into psyche)

now if i can only remember where i put my precision screwdrivers

[yairhol]

Nice... Thank you. I tried imitating his sound from the song "Learn to Love" on Suadades de Rock and found that I get close when adding a compressor to the end of line. Of course I'm using everything in plug-in format which brings me to a former post of mine which I think you missed.
Here it is again:

Wow bob, these stories sound awsome and how I wish I could be a fly on the wall in those studios at those times...only I'd have liked to live more than 3 days.

I'd love to hear your opinion on the semi-new trend where musicians are building their own digital home studios. Could have Extreme in today's average home studio recorded their albums where 95% of the equipment is virtual inside the PC and still get those awesome sounds that they did back then when everything was analog?

Thanks.

[bob st john]

sorry...i remember seeing that and wanting to respond but forgot!

i'm not always as sure that i one MUST record drums in a "real" studio. one of my favorite records that i recorded, was recorded at a client's house (they had a large, high ceiling living room that was converted to a drum recording area; they actually had a studio in the house complete with 5 or 6 focusrite ISA mic pre/eq's and a compliment of other equipment...but nothing really exotic). tracks sounded better than a lot of stuff i've recorded in "real" studios lately.

as far as all the other overdubs...as long as you have a good mic/mic pre combination, i don't feel makes as much of a difference.

there IS this caveat, however...and that is, there is no measure for the feel of a band actually perfoming together in the studio. that type of thing is difficult to do in a home studio environment, where there are rarely enough inputs, headphone mixes, etc. and there truly is something to the experience of recording in a studio. it lends a sense of purpose, and eliminates the "party time" atmosphere that pervades home recording.

that is ONE side.

on the OTHER side of that...is the fact that when you are recording overdubs at home, you can spend as much time as you like...without worrying about the $150/hr studio time and engineer. of course...you have to have discipline about performances, and recording, and budgeting time (i'm not naming names here but

since 95% of my work now is mixing, i do get a lot of project that people have recorded at home, using less than spectacular gear. but there really is no substitute for the energy you can capture when you're really relaxed and NOT worrying so much about what it's costing. and that is what home recording can bring you...

then just find someone credible and/or knowledgable enough to pull the best out of the tracks...

all this technology means nothing without the heart and spirit of great performance and great songs...

[pisquano]

to Bob and Michael

this is THE most informative post I have ever read.
I always loved Extreme's music and you clearly contributed well to that!
great KUDOS to both!!!

I have a small question for you (if you will like to reply)

1) did Nuno uso the Vibroverb 63 reissue as the main distorsion for Punchline? was he boosting it with any pedals? if so, that amp is AMAZING, why didn't he use it again?
2) How did Nuno achieve that weird sound in "Hip Today" where it sounds like he's choking the low E string during the 2nd verse? (he does it twice)
3) what harmonic is he playing to get that high harmonic during the verse of "Confortably Dumb (which I believe he also did in There is no God..)? ,that reminds me a lot of the harmonic played by Van Halen in "I'm on fire"

many thanks again it's been fantastic reading directly from you guys!!!
Fede

[bob st john]

hi pisquano...

let me see if i can give you some answers. guitar playing technical answers aren't really my forte...but now that you mention it, you're right...he does make a similar sound of "comfortably dumb" as was in "there is no god," in the verses. interesting observation.

the vibroverb was an original, not a reissue, if i remember right. we had two of them...that was the only one that sounded like that. i believe it had a microphonic tube...which was part of that peaky, saturated sound. if my memory serves me correctly, i don't think he was using an overdrive or pedal unless for an obvious octave or phaser effect. when the tube tied, i don't believe the amp ever sounded the same, hence it never showed up again. i'm pretty sure we used it on some of schizophonic, too...it (like nuno) had a very inimitable sound. i'll have to check out the session notes (which i believe i may have) and get back to you on what the actual front end was before the amp...

as far as "hip today," i do know the sound you speak of...i remember watching him play it when we were recording it...but again, even though i spent more time watching nuno play guitar than i did watching tv with my wife...hard to remember what he did =) you may want to look at some old guitar player issues and see if there's any revelation of the "tricks."

thanks for your kind words...

bob

[pisquano]

thanks Bob!
in fact that Vibroverb is soooo sweet.
in some ways I get pretty close with my JCM800 boosted by a TS9...
I assume that Vibroverb must have been cranked all the way up

if I had to choose a song that "identifies" waiting for the punchline, I would choose "Cynical": that riff is killer!! also "Naked" maybe...
I remember reading an interview where Nuno talked about that moment during the song when you hear the "click" when he switches pickups on the N4...he was saying that was the coolest "nuance" he had ever recorded, and was defining that amp as the "best ever tried"...
but I also like A LOT Saudades...and I think Nuno has (rightly) decided to do a bit less solos, in favour to a more balanced album..

im my mind there are 2 big "families of Extreme sounds" - one surely more eighties driven by the Ada, and the second more mature (Vibroverb and Marshall, including things nuno did with Mourning Widows for example a song like Monkey Paw).

if you have the notes from WFTPL it would be fantastic - I loved those from III sides!!
I am going to see Extreme here in London on the 24th..shall I bring your regards to Nuno he he?
thanks
Fede

[yairhol]

Hi Bob,
I have 2 new questions for you if you'll be so kind to answer:

1. On Pornograffitti, after the guitar intro to He-Man Woman Hater there is a low pitched male voice saying "No women allowed". Who's that person and how did you get his voice to sound like that?

2. On Extreme's latest album, during the guitar intro of "Learn to Love" I think I can hear on the right speaker (the guitar is playing the left speaker only during the intro) the drummer playing the high hat pedal giving Nuno the initial tempo. It happens right at the start and for maybe one second. Can you confirm this?

As always, thank you for taking the time to answer.

[bob st john]

peculiar questions

1: nuno. and the effect was just detuning his voice with an H-3000. nothing demonic there...

2: i think that was just kfigg starting the song. love that guy's playing! he IS the real thing...hits hard (we only got 3 takes out of each set of heads) and gives 300% on every take...you can't help but start moving your body just watching him play...it's infectious!

[The Beatsmith]

um, the sound in hip today is just nuno hitting the low E (well, E flat) and using the trem to go down half a step

i also read in an interview that he used a H&K tubeman (original not the silver mk II) as a distortion pedal in front of the fender, on WTFP, do you remember anything about that bob?

asking what harmonic he played exactly... well... work it out yourself

cheers