Mastering Engineers

[RichT]

Ok, the gloves are off now -

what are everyone's thoughts on mastering engineers in general -

Wily Wizards who work wonderful magic or.... something else?

Cheers,
Rich

[Jose Mrochek]

After all the posts I read about Mastering Engineers I came to this conclusion. The magic needs to be there before it gets to the mastering house. And I also think , the best Mastering Engineer is the one that translates what you told them in words, into a final product.. with an extra something you didn't expect but liked.

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
the one that translates what you told them in words, into a final product.. with an extra something you didn't expect but liked.

That is the definition of Brad Blackwood, worthy of Websters

[shipshape]

Ok Rich......you asked. The whole subject of mastering has fortunately become a hot debate these days. I really think people are realising that something has gone horribly wrong with with what mastering is all about these days.
I agree that a better record should just get better in mastering but I find that that's not what nesasarily happens. I know mastering engineers who will make changes concerning compression etc once I've left the session and I find that wrong. And it's all about "volume" and some kind of weird competition to see how much they can f#ck up your record , because of how they want to hear it and not how I want to hear it so it irks me so I limit mastering to two people no matter how much pressure I get from the record company , which can be considerable. It should be a very simple process without a lot of the "voodoo" associated with it .
The reason I sound a little bitter is due to the number of times I've had a hideous mastering experiences and I dont buy in to the whole "brickwall" thing eventho I have had records mastered like that , mostly due to a mastering engineers post session "tweaks".
Having said all that , there are certainly a bunch of ME's that are brilliant at their craft and don't buy into the volume myth. You just have to keep doing "shootouts" till you find someone you connect with.
A lot of people blame Protools for "tinny" sounding records and I think mastering is as much as misuse of Protools , to blame.

[shipshape]

The only really odd mastering story Ive got is that I remember sitting in the control room with Mutt waiting to hear back about how the mastering session was going , on a record that was 6 months overdue and that we had worked thru Christmas and Newyears to finnish(as well as the previous 9 months!). The phone rings and Mutt looks at me horrified as the ME tells him that the record is totally unmasterable due to how terrible it was. Man those eyes boring right thru me !!!
So we decided to send the tapes to Bob Ludwig for "evaluation" and hopefully mastering !! and he thought it was great thank goodness just not "traditional" sounding , it was "Pyromania " by Def Leppard and it fortunately went on to do ok despite it being unmasterable.
I think it is an odd sounding record due to the technology we were using back then for machine drums etc. and from how tape degrades to the point of chunks of oxide coming off due to 9 months of 16 hour days being run over the heads!
It all turned out ok and Mr. Ludwig is a very fine man !That's how different mastering experiences can be.

[Jose Mrochek]

I love these stories!! Thanks Mike!

[RichT]

Ok, my nags about mastering engineers:

Mastering from Stems? What is that all about?

It's pseudo mixing basically.

If the mastering engineer is able to **** with the level of the drums, vocals, etc then where is their objectivity?

Where is the perspective of the third party?

Plus, what are they doing to my mix to need to pump the drums up? Stop ****ing with it!

Next...

I wish I had a decent local mastering guy but I don't. Last session I sat in with him I watched him 'master' a single using Cool Edit.

That was the last time.

I've used Abbey Road three times, all on related releases and was impressed with the results until:

Brad Blackwood

Nuff said.

Cheers,
Rich

[Bob Olhsson]

Recognizing the difference between different and truly better is a lot of what great mastering is all about. Bob Ludwig has been my first-choice mastering engineer for years after working with most of the "names" during the 70s and '80s. He (and Doug Sax) taught me the importance of never trying to fix what isn't broken. Bob also has never blinked at taking on an unknown independent project. To his credit he is one of very few people at his level who doesn't try to "cherry pick" his clients.

I got back into mastering during the '90s after my friends and I began having disastrous digital mastering experiences.

Mastering from stems is a useful technique that was developed in film mixing. It's important to understand that it ISN'T mixing because it isn't about second guessing mixing decisions. All of the stems set to zero MUST form an utterly perfect mix. Anything less than that is mixing and not mastering.

Mastering decisions frequently have to do with how one song lies between two other songs. Sometimes a tenth of a dB more or less vocal can make all the difference in the world. This is done every day in mastering sessions using eq and compression along with vocal up or vocal down mixes. Using a stem instead can result in overall sound that is closer to what the mixer originally intended than trying to accomplish the same thing by using signal processing.

[jazzius II]

There's nothing wrong with stem mastering if everyone understands the procedure and doesn't get too carried away.....what's wrong with loading in 6 tracks, all set to zero, in your DAW?...nothing too scary in that, is there?......if i was a mixer, i'd definately print stems, just to cover my arse.......

I think it's a bit unfair to blame the present state of sound only on the masterers......the guy earlier in the thread who was suprised that Sterling jammed his 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag was obviously ignorant about the present state of loudness in commercial releases, 'cause everything that comes out of Sterling sounds that way......if you don't like it, don't go there.

[jazzius II]

ok, you're obviously not a novice and i apologize for the insinuation......so you must have known that going to Sterling is like playing russian roulette with your mixes........was it Chris Gehringer (often distorted) or the consistently awful Ted "Finalizer" Jensen?

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by jazzius II
was it Chris Gehringer (often distorted) or the consistently awful Ted "Finalizer" Jensen?

Don't forget Marino... great guy, capable of so much more than what's been coming out of his room these past few years. Same with Jensen.

There are some very talented MEs who have really sunk to all-time lows over the past 3-4 years. Even Ludwig has sacrificed for the sake of A&R-pressured loudness, but I doubt he'd do it without the pressure. That's the big difference.

[Jose Mrochek]

I was going through the same process of deciding on what "big name" mastering guy to send my stuff to. And thanks to the slutz, I have come to another conclusion. It's not about the hits they have mastered... nodisrespect to mastering guys intended, but those hits where probably going to be hits even if not mastered. What I would do is chose my favorite album, and send it to that guy. Tell him Dude, I am giving you this with ears shut because I want what you did in this album as a end result, no volume war.. no nothing, just this. I hope it works. : )

[jazzius II]

Originally posted by jpaudio
Don't forget Marino... great guy, capable of so much more than what's been coming out of his room these past few years. Same with Jensen.

.

I'd love to throttle Marino for what he did to MJ's "Thriller".

[not_so_new]

I'd love to throttle Marino for what he did to MJ's "Thriller".

Really?? Why?? Although I love the music I have never owned the CD and only listened on the radio (who can tell what something sounds like then) but I thought it was okay??

[AARDVARKS]

As a Metal Head on the one hand it would be a dream come true for me to have an album mastered by George Marino.
His work on ...

Metallica - Black Album
Death - Symbolic
Type O Negative - Bloody Kisses/October Rust
Machine Head
Dream Theater - Awake

... is extraordinary.

Although if I would need a more dynamical master - for example for my soul band - I would visit another studio.