Quality of heavy/dirt guitars - mwagener or anyone else?

[hourglass]

I notice this all the time...

You take a big selling band and record them on a big-ass budget and their guitars sound huge, distorted & sort of "round" in a high-class kinda way...

You take the same band (or maybe just the same guitar player) and record on a much smaller budget and the guitars are just as loud, just as huge and distorted, but also rougher and harsher - kinda jagged around the edges.


Some examples of what I'm talkin'...

Zakk Wylde - No More Tears vs. any BLS record.

Motley Crue - Dr. Feelgood vs. New Tattoo.

No More Tears is shiny and clean sounding - yet distorted as shit.

Dr. Feelgood (or just about any other Motley record...) is the same way - Hell, even the C-Tuned guitars on the self-titled record from '94 are gorgeously high-class.

Then you move along to New Tattoo, recorded just a few years ago and while the SOUND is Motley Crue, and you know it's Mick Mars playing the guitar, it doesn't have that high-gloss to it like the old stuff. It's kinda got more of a buzzy, demo sound to it like a lot of the indie death & thrash metal stuff that gets spun thru my CD machine.

My question is - what's the major difference here?

I mean, I imagine it has something to do with the budget for the project, but in what way?

Is it a matter of spending ten days getting a guitar sound?

Is a matter of playing thru the producer's audiophile poweramps? (yeah - i scanned a lot of posts lookin' for answers to this...)

Is it a matter of spending ten days on the mix tweaking just the guitar sounds?

Being that the "demo" and "Indie" sounds are more in line with the jagged, rough sound, is it showing the difference of just one 57 on the grille vs. a couple of 57's or 2 (or more) different mics?

Perhaps multiple amps/cabs all eq'd differently, miced and then mixed together... I dunno...

Thanks for any info or insight into this...

ryan

[djui5]

further proof that arangement is your friend...

[StuartMac]

I know this is a gross over-simplification, but since I got my Royer 121 my heavy guitar sounds are way better than before. Maybe 15% rather than Slip's 5.

But I think Slip hits the nail hard on the head. Lot's of little things adding up to make a big difference. It's that almost obsessive attention to detail that sets the big guys apart.

People always bang on about there being "hardly any difference" to the layman between this mic and that mic, or this pre and that, or whatever - and they fundamentally miss the point.

A whole load of "hardly any difference" when added up makes a big difference - the kind that yer average record buyer CAN hear with their eyes and ears shut.

[LTA]

It might just be that in a big budget production, you can plug the guitar into multiple amps with a splitter/y cable and record them all to individual channels for mixing. You could layer the grit of a rectifier over a clean tweed, and mix in some vox, orange, marshall, soldano, and peavey in with it. Think of Phil Spector and the "wall of sound" while doing this. And make sure everything is copesetic in the phase department.

In the project studio environment, even putting an sm57, 421, and a condenser distant mic on a single amp is a big deal. Multiple amps means multiples of mics, in addition to the potential need for additional isolation. And even just a few miced amplifiers can eat up a bunch of board real estate. I also don't know of too many guitar players that would haul literally a half ton of amps to even a 3 day session if cartage wasn't paid for by a record label.

Slip got it right, I think. I like the old 10/90 relationship better. You can get 90% of the way there with 10% of the effort, but it takes an addition 90% of effort to get the final 10% of good sound.

If you could put a royer 121, sm57, 421 on 10 different amps, do you think it would sound "better" than putting 10 of each of those mics on a single guitar amp? It is a scale thing. I can only fantasize about getting some empirical experience with this. 10 amps at a time may be a bit '80s, but i bet even 2 or 3 amps would be enough to work with Imagine double or triple tracking 10 amps

[drew]

and don't forget perspective. those gtrs sound the way they do partly because of what surrounds them. good drums will make a guitar sound better.

[Beezoboy]

Different recording technologies could make an impact too. Maybe one was tracked to a Studer 2 inch or Skully. Maybe one was tracked to 3m or tracked digital, prinited to tape, and brought back.

Even if that were not the case, sometimes technology that makes things Hi-fi, makes imperfections more apparent. Also the mixers may have tried to be attuned to the mixes of the time. Mid 90's were all about grit in the guitar sound because Alternative rock was in full swing. Also some of the newest digital gear, (for the time) which was cutting edge, was just no so smooth.

Too many factors really. I'd blame it on studio gnomes that mess with gear in the middle of the night. What you say, you don't know about studio gnomes??

Beez

[alphajerk]

taste?

could be they dont want that glossy sound.

[mwagener]

Slipperman hit it right on the head (as usual). I think it's a combination of a lot of things, starting with the player, guitar, guitarcable, amp, cable, speaker cabinet, microphone, cable, preamp, cable, patchbay, cable, EQ, cable, converter, recording medium, console, effects, engineer, the amount of time spent on getting the sound etc. you get the picture.

I could also imagine, when moving to a smaller budget, you also move to a room that is not as well equipped (monitors) or, more important, acoustically treated as the high $$$ room.

But what it all comes down to in the end are the ears of the people involved in the project. An experienced engineer can make up for a lot of shortcomings in most of the above mentioned stages.

[MMazurek]

Let's be honest here.

It's not the guitar cable. grudge

(inside joke, for those wanting to pick on me)

[djui5]

Originally posted by MMazurek
Let's be honest here.

It's not the guitar cable. grudge

(inside joke, for those wanting to pick on me)

It's the AC cable used on the amps...

[hourglass]

Originally posted by drew
and don't forget perspective. those gtrs sound the way they do partly because of what surrounds them. good drums will make a guitar sound better.

Hey Drew,

Thanks for chiming in.

I've been thinking about this over the weekend and I dug some stuff up that might help this discussion...

I know you and I have talked a little about them in the past, but maybe in a public forum some discussion of your techniques could be helpful, plus I've never bugged you about it down to the nitty-gritty before...

So - you take 3 records.

All tracked at the same studio.
All engineered by the same guy.
All mastered by the same guy.
All but one mixed by the same guy.
All played by the same band - and only one of them featuring any "member replacement."


If everyone is saying this shit is all dependent on micro-factors - that is, changing a bunch of little things to make a single big difference, then taking a look at these three records should reveal some of those tricks.

Of course, that's all depending on what you're willing to reveal.

For the uninitiated, Drew did 3 records for Souls At Zero -- a Self Titled debut, an EP and a 2nd full-length called "A Taste for the Perverse."

Unfortunately, all 3 of these releases are out-of-print - just more proof that the record buying public has no interest in the actual quality of the music contained on that shiny silver disc.

Shannon Larkin, currently of Godsmack, played drums on the first two, so Drew's previous comment about it depending on good drums, etc is what led me on this expedition.

I suppose I'll lay this out in chronological order, which is how I sort of went into it.

The first available piece of Souls At Zero is a demo of the track "Hardline", available on the EP. "Hardline" also appears on the self-titled release.

Ostensibly, this is an earlier version of a track that appears on the self-titled album. It's definitely obvious that the vocals are different - as some of the lyrics underwent revisions. However, I've never sat down to study the differences, and since the performance is good on both I can't really pick out any obvious instrumental/tracking differences.

The mix of this, compared to what appears on the album is very different, however.

Ron Saint Germain mixed the self-titled release @ Electric Lady. All other mixes are by Drew @ Oz Studios.

This song has a bit of what I'm talking about with "demo" guitars - tho not as obvious as some of the other examples I pointed out before.

In the chorus for this song, the guitars start and stop a lot, and do some chunky slides into power chords and this is where the buzzier aspects of the demo show thru.

Overall, I think I like the mix on the demo version better, tho. It's certainly louder so it may just be my ears doing the "louder is better" thing, but the definition between the instruments is much more cohesive. It actually seems less low-mid heavy than the version on the self-titled CD. Actually, all of the mixes on the EP follow along the same lines as this song.

While I was listening to these things with a ear toward comparison, another thing jumped out at me.

For the first two releases, you can't really ID the bass amp. It sounds good, it's in the mix, but it's sort of muffled under the guitars.

The third CD, however is like a revelation, mixwise. As soon as I hear the bass on that, something clicks in my head and I see "AMPEG SVT" flashing somewhere back in there...

This CD has a very similar feel to the other two - yet is was recorded a few years apart. The marked differences here would be Jamie Miller's piccolo snare, the crystal clear bass guitar, and an overall sheen and sort of "big production" feel to it that the other two lack.

And actually, it seems to me that this is the CD that actually lacks - it seems carved out, almost hollow and much more clear in the low-mids on the guitars so it lets the bass sort of live right in the mix, rather than just poking thru here and there. As such, it's a much better sounding disc than the first two.



I guess that leaves us with a few questions -- I know of a few differences that haven't been mentioned, at least gearwise, so I'll see if Drew can offer any wisdom there.

What I have no concrete info on, tho, is what guitar amps are on these records, where they were sitting (that point may be only helpful to me, since I actually live and breathe in those rooms...), were they tracked with drums/bass/etc or all overdubbed, did you put the drums on the riser or stick 'em on the floor and finally:

HOW LONG DID YOU WRESTLE THE AMP TO GET THAT GUITAR SOUND?

The first time I heard "Frustration" drop I just stopped and stared at the speaker. All I knew (being a freshly enrolled college student) at the time was that MY AMP DIDN'T DO THAT.

Only Heartwork has given me the same jolt upon hearing the guitar tone for an album (okay... maybe I need to update that -- I also had a jolt when I saw the G3 DVD and Joe was playing thru his new Peavey amp. Holy shit... but anyhow)...

Drew - if your memory holds any info from these days which are what -- about 10-12 years gone now -- can you shed any light onto the situation?

thanks

ryan

[drew]

Ryan,
let's see what i can remember.

demo '92: recorded and mixed in 4-5 very long days----frustration, checking out, hardline (which later came up on the EP) and a few others.
TAC Matchless console
Studer 827
big nasty Tannoy mains and NS10s
Drums in main room (far left corner) but the wood floor wasn’t in yet. It was carpeted. And none of those wall treatments were in yet. Studio was only a year and a half old at that point.
Guitar was just outside CR window on the right wall where light switches are. It was baffled in almost like a little room cause we saw Hetfield do it on “a year and a half in the life of Metallica” the amp was a Boogie MKII (the stained wood one with the natural cane mesh on the front)
Into cabs they had made for them. mics: 57, 421, 414 into Neve modules (like the ones in a Melbourne) into console and bussed to one track.
Bass was Peavey preamp into peavey power amp (I know I know) into more special cabs. this is what was used on the 3D record that Alex Perialis did also.

1st record-jan ‘93
TAC Matchless console
Studer 827
Drums in what’s now the lounge area (the medium sized room hadn’t been built) Shannon would have been right in front of what is now the door to the practice space area. We rented a rack of Focusrite ISA110 modules and tracked through those instead of the TAC.

Guitar—tried to recreate what we got on the demo but failed.

Bass-at some point Brad got new Mesa 400+ heads and Mesa cabs, I can’t remember if this happened for this record or the later one.

Mixed by Ron at Electric Lady. I was “co-producer” so I was there. Ron did not “get” heavy bands (listen to Tool-Undertow or Soundgarden-Badmotorfinger to see what I mean) and I was not pleased with the results.

Next record:
Trident 90 console
Studer 827

Shannon off to join Ugly Kid Joe (I know I know) enter Jaime Miller (www.thisisthestart.com—to see what he’s doing now—playing gtr!!)

Drums in newly built medium sized room.
Bass-definitely the new Mesa stuff 400+ heads, cabs with 2x15 and tweeters.
Guitar- combinations of Marshall 800, Mesa trip rec, and Mesa MKII


Anyway, in this case these records were done so differently I don’t think there’s much to be gotten from how they were done. What was the question again?? My head hurts and I feel old, thanks a lot Ryan!!!
drew

[blackcatdigi]

Originally posted by drew
Mixed by Ron at Electric Lady. I was “co-producer” so I was there. Ron did not “get” heavy bands (listen to Tool-Undertow or Soundgarden-Badmotorfinger to see what I mean) and I was not pleased with the results.

Drew,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this:
(IMHO) Badmotorfinger sounds absolutely horrible, but I actually like the production of Undertow.

Are these two offered as examples of him "not getting" heavy bands?

TIA

[enharmonic]

Jaime Miller is playing GUITAR????!!!

I should just shoot myself now and get it over with. The man is a beast on the kit.

Musicians...I'll never understand 'em

As for Badmotorfinger, I've always wanted to meet the man who took a shit all over that record...and here I was blaming Adam Kasper for all of these years

[drew]

see, to me Undertow and Badmotorfinger have a lot in common. small, a bit brittle and scooped out sounding. maybe I should listen again but they both sound heavily EQed and processed like he was having to do a salvage job (which, for all I know he was)
drew

yea, Rob, Jamie on gtr is weird but he's one of those guys that seems good at whatever he does.

[hourglass]

Drew,

Thanks for the insight into the procedures for those records.

One thing you didn't address tho - when were the other tracks for the EP done? Were they left-overs from the first session? An aborted attempt at a 2nd full-length before Shannon jumped ship?

I'm surprised to hear you say that so much changed for each of these - there's a real cohesive feel to all of them - like they're all just part of a natural progression.

ryan

[drew]

i forgot about the other "new" songs on the EP. they were a completely different session and i liked those the best i think. those and the "taste" record were my favorites. did i cover it? any other questions?
drew

[hourglass]

Originally posted by drew
did i cover it? any other questions?
drew

I think that about does it.

Thanks!

ryan

[drew]

it's nice to know someone's listening!!

[chap]

the pick. it's the pick.

[hourglass]

Originally posted by drew
it's nice to know someone's listening!!

I'm certainly listening. After all, what'd I tell the guy when he asked me if I'd heard of Oz Studios and would I be interested in renting the space?

Methinks it was something like - "Heard of it? I've got CD's right here beside me which were recorded there... I'll meet you there in an hour."

Now I just need to figure out how to get you back in here to do more...

[warhead]

Originally posted by djui5
It's the AC cable used on the amps...

NO NO NO NO NO...

it's the cable used on the preamp.

Come on man, this is high end AC cable 101...

War