Oram/Trident 8T-16 Vs. Toft ATB 16

[Apemandan]

Anybody have an opinion?!!!! Perhaps done an exact comparison?

[jacko]

someone did A/B but they have not told us which one is which yet :)

[lambro]

I found a comparison check list on the Oram site...

I briefly used Uli Roths (ex 70's scorpions guitarist) custom Oram Dream 48, I'm not sure electronically what was unique about it from his standard offerings, pretty impressive - all gold console surface, this was 10 years ago so the recall has faded. never saw any guts to comment on build quality. Eye candy factor was a 10, sound was a 10. (we used a U67 on his famous marshall in a giant marble hallway with a U47 about 30 feet back for ambient...)I have some pics but they are on color slide.

Toft really seems to have their act together, I talked to a rep last week, very helpful, and from prior threads they really seem customer driven.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by jacko

someone did A/B but they have not told us which one is which yet :)

It just took me a lot cause I was performing the tests during the free time between the sessions, BTW I'm done testing, tomorrow I'll post the last samples and then the results, check the thread!

[Alex Wyler]

Originally Posted by lambro

Toft really seems to have their act together, I talked to a rep last week, very helpful, and from prior threads they really seem customer driven.

You haven't purchased product from them. Wait until you have purchased the product and things go very wrong. Then watch how they play defence and treat you like you are an idiot.

It's like this with some bad companies. They are all roses before you buy. But afterwards...

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

You haven't purchased product from them. Wait until you have purchased the product and things go very wrong. Then watch how they play defence and treat you like you are an idiot.

It's like this with some bad companies. They are all roses before you buy. But afterwards...

Ok Alex-I am giving you the benefit of the doubt-please supply the following particulars:

1. Have you purchased a toft board, if so what and when?

2. If yes, did things go wrong with the toft board, and specify what things went wrong, and when.

3. Did you contact Toft-and if so was it by telephone/letter, and if so give particulars of your communications with Toft.

4. Did Toft reply and who from toft replied and what was the material response, and did they attend to the problems.

5. If you do not own a toft board, or the problems did not happen to you, are you referring to first hand/second hand/third hand hearsay .....

Without giving us some candid details your response may be perceived as agenda based-and as I am looking at a Toft board in the future I would really appreciate a detailed response to my query above, so I can then make a decision based on facts. I dont mean to come across as being a dick-I just want really detailed info so I can make an informed purchasing decision in the future.

Thanks

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Ok Alex-I am giving you the benefit of the doubt-please supply the following particulars:

1. Have you purchased a toft board, if so what and when?

2. If yes, did things go wrong with the toft board, and specify what things went wrong, and when.

3. Did you contact Toft-and if so was it by telephone/letter, and if so give particulars of your communications with Toft.

4. Did Toft reply and who from toft replied and what was the material response, and did they attend to the problems.

5. If you do not own a toft board, or the problems did not happen to you, are you referring to first hand/second hand/third hand hearsay .....

Without giving us some candid details your response may be perceived as agenda based-and as I am looking at a Toft board in the future I would really appreciate a detailed response to my query above, so I can then make a decision based on facts. I dont mean to come across as being a dick-I just want really detailed info so I can make an informed purchasing decision in the future.

Thanks

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

Noooooo.... doooooon't...... dooooooo...... iiiiiiiiit ....... (slow motion, throwing yourself on the grenade known as giving Alex Wyler yet another opportunity to rail against the Toft )

-a

[Alex Wyler]

PM me. I'll give you the details of the Toft ATB box of gremlins I bought and sold.

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

It just took me a lot cause I was performing the tests during the free time between the sessions, BTW I'm done testing, tomorrow I'll post the last samples and then the results, check the thread!

Here is Ciozzi's thread:

Toft ATB vs Trident 8T : audio samples

[Brent Casey]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

PM me. I'll give you the details of the Toft ATB box of gremlins I bought and sold.

Hi Alex,

I'm late to the party here but would also like know the details about your experiences.

Specifically,
-What happened that makes you say all this?
-Who did you speak with at PMI?
-Where is the board now? Is it still "a box of gremlins"?

I did a search through my customer notes yesterday, asked around at PMI and looked for you online. Everything I found related to "Alex Wyler" and "Lake House Studios" either pointed to Gearslutz, or led me to a film called "The Lake House". I would guess that the latter is a matter of happenstance, but I am curious.
In the back of my head, I remember a call coming in from Alaska about an ATB in the last year. I don't think that you and I have ever spoken, but as an employee of PMI Audio, I can tell you unequivocally that I care deeply about helping our customers. I spend a lot of time doing this, even when I have deadlines to meet. There are many occasions where technical assistance for the studio extends beyond our own products.
I'm very sorry that this is all after the fact, but I would really appreciate some clarification about what has brought you to this point.

Regards,

Brent Casey
Design, Engineering
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335

[Duardo]

You can read about his issues here, starting at post #52...

[kats]

Save yourself the trouble. His complaint was that not all the knobs lined up properly. Other than that he thought the board & eq sounded great.

He is also upset about customer service because they have not been helpfull in solving the knob issue. It is important to note that he never contacted them directly about the matter, but assumed that PMI should have contacted him about the issue because he posted in GS.

[Kris]

[Alex Wyler]

Perhaps these things have been resolved now because of all the different and improved components PMI is using now in the mixer's manufacture. Alan Hyat has detailed all of that in his responses to these questions about all the necessary changes that have been made to fix the problems. There are many. I bought mine early on and I think i was a guinea pig beta tester to be honest.

My ATB was infected with all the illnesses discussed early on. Channels failing and fluctuating in level, crackling pots and switches, switches sticking out on an angle, knobs not lining up with center detent so not being able to accurately adjust anything int he EQ sections, faders not matching in level when placed in the same position.......but mostly the deal breaker was not these minor inconvieniences......it was in that throughout the entire mixer the alignment was really screwed. This has been discussed by others if you want to do a search for Toft ATB. I was not in on the Pilot Program so my board was from a production run and I think a mixer hyped up as much as this one is and costing as much as this one should deliver a lot more than what I got. Reliability was my main concern.

There are quite a few mixers costing half the price of this one and would be far more reliable in my opinion. In some cases more than a full dB and half of difference in leve existed between channels set at the same fader position with input trim all the way down. This was the case as well in the master outputs having a difference in level from left to right and it read that way fromt he VU meteres and the LED meters. Not to mention the fact that the LED and VU meters were out of wack with one another, with the VU showing a peak of -5 the LED would say it was +3.....like I say......screwed. Panning was totally off from one channel to another on the ATB I had. Could not get work done on the board.

From PMI, parts were offered for me to repair myself. Sorry but it was really beyond repair being so screwed up in alignment everywhere.

No company can build to low standrds like this out of the gate and market it to folks using things like Neve and API and other high end gear while expecting those of us in the know to be pleased with the quality. Especially when there are products costing way less that are obviously crafted with a quality closer to what we are used to.

It sounded anything like a Trident. Not like any I have worked on.

I puchaed the ATB believing in all the positive possibilities and felt that the company was really customer driven based on all the feedback they seemed to be trying to get from people on the forum here. In the end I think they were just trying to get an initial customer base going so they could test the product out and make changes instead of paying for R&D themselves. This is what ticks me off now when I read about all the changes.

They say that's what the Pilot Program was for but all the changes were made just recently after several hundred of these things have gone out the door.

If the product was cool....they wouldn't be making any changes.

Steered clear of the Oram board knowing about the negatives of that companies history from users. I would say that both these options are questionable at this point. Be cautious if you are looking at either of these. Not so much of the product.... more so of the company and the way they do business.

Had a tech friend fix what he could , mostly the failing parts of the board that were bad connections by de-soldering and re-soldering with in several places and sold it working as is. I lost about $1500 in the end.

[Jake Holland]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

Perhaps these things have been resolved now because of all the different and improved components PMI is using now in the mixer's manufacture. Alan Hyat has detailed all of that in his responses to these questions about all the necessary changes that have been made to fix the problems. There are many. I bought mine early on and I think i was a guinea pig beta tester to be honest.

My ATB was infected with all the illnesses discussed early on. Channels failing and fluctuating in level, crackling pots and switches, switches sticking out on an angle, knobs not lining up with center detent so not being able to accurately adjust anything int he EQ sections, faders not matching in level when placed in the same position.......but mostly the deal breaker was not these minor inconvieniences......it was in that throughout the entire mixer the alignment was really screwed. This has been discussed by others if you want to do a search for Toft ATB. I was not in on the Pilot Program so my board was from a production run and I think a mixer hyped up as much as this one is and costing as much as this one should deliver a lot more than what I got. Reliability was my main concern.

There are quite a few mixers costing half the price of this one and would be far more reliable in my opinion. In some cases more than a full dB and half of difference in leve existed between channels set at the same fader position with input trim all the way down. This was the case as well in the master outputs having a difference in level from left to right and it read that way fromt he VU meteres and the LED meters. Not to mention the fact that the LED and VU meters were out of wack with one another, with the VU showing a peak of -5 the LED would say it was +3.....like I say......screwed. Panning was totally off from one channel to another on the ATB I had. Could not get work done on the board.

From PMI, parts were offered for me to repair myself. Sorry but it was really beyond repair being so screwed up in alignment everywhere.

No company can build to low standrds like this out of the gate and market it to folks using things like Neve and API and other high end gear while expecting those of us in the know to be pleased with the quality. Especially when there are products costing way less that are obviously crafted with a quality closer to what we are used to.

It sounded anything like a Trident. Not like any I have worked on.

I puchaed the ATB believing in all the positive possibilities and felt that the company was really customer driven based on all the feedback they seemed to be trying to get from people on the forum here. In the end I think they were just trying to get an initial customer base going so they could test the product out and make changes instead of paying for R&D themselves. This is what ticks me off now when I read about all the changes.

They say that's what the Pilot Program was for but all the changes were made just recently after several hundred of these things have gone out the door.

If the product was cool....they wouldn't be making any changes.

Steered clear of the Oram board knowing about the negatives of that companies history from users. I would say that both these options are questionable at this point. Be cautious if you are looking at either of these. Not so much of the product.... more so of the company and the way they do business.

Had a tech friend fix what he could , mostly the failing parts of the board that were bad connections by de-soldering and re-soldering with in several places and sold it working as is. I lost about $1500 in the end.

I'm looking to buy a console very soon and I've been digging about the many threads here on the different choices. At first the Toft ATB looked like the one to get. Reading about some of the experiences people are having like this and other posts I have read discussing all sorts of bad calibration and metering problems and such I feel quite turned off by the whole thing.

I read some posts on here by the Toft rep that Toft ATB's use better quality parts now to fix all this but that just seems slimy to me. To start off using cheap stuff to save a buck. I guess that's the world we live in now.

What do people think about the alternatives to this like summing units with outboard EQ's or maybe a different board in the same league. is the Midas Venice in the same league in terms of the sound of it's summing and basic sonics? I know the eq is likely a bit smoother on the Toft but with eq's bypassed would the Midas give similar quality summing wise?

[shortyprs]

I wouldn't give up on the idea of the Toft console. About 90% of the negative posts I've seen all come from one person. Otherwise, including issues with the first round of knobs and faders, reviews have all been in the "great bang for the buck" to "very good" range. Hell, I've got a beta and I'm still happy. Yes, some knobs don't center detent, but I mix by ear. I don't really care how they look. I care how they sound. Sound-wise, and reliability-wise (1 year and 2 months, knock on wood) I'm very happy

[Jake Holland]

I think buying a mixer in this new and bleeding edge price range is a real crapshoot.

I've heard the bad news myself from several people I know who own one and on a few different forums now. It's not an isolated case of one or two individuals having issues. I hear more good things about the ATB form people who have purchased ones more recently but in the beginnning there was a lot of complaints. I've read through the threads. The PMI people passed these complainers off saying they expected too much for the money or didn't know how to setup and work a board. Read the threads as I have and you will see for yourself the sort of ingnorance that PMI has.

I think all these changes we are hearing about are part of a tactic that many bad companies try out. They create the first version of the product using the lowest costing method. Then sit and wait for a response until the product is out in the field for a while to see what they can get away with to see what the majority of customers will find acceptale or not. These kinds of companies will try to get away with as much as they can to save money to make money. So when the customers bitch about poor calibration. Then the comapny makes a move to better quality components as a resonse to customer demands. They have to please the largest percentage of their customer base to stay profitable and keep the business going. It's how business works these days unfortunatley.

[Dirty Halo]

The majority of people LOVE their Toft ATB and are off USING it. Imagine that

This just leaves

1. People who don't have much else to do but complain on forums.

2. And MANY non-owners just perpetuating negativity.

I'd say the Toft is AMAZING with a majority of happy owners.

Here's a new and interesting FACT from a new source:

Coming from an engineer who designs gear I KNOW you all LOVE (if you even own it) has gone through the Toft (and I'm talking the FULL under the hood) and given his personal thumbs up.

He literally used to be THE Trident guy and has seen most EVERY Trident (A-Range, 80B, and otherwise) that came through the U.S. and he said the sound and build of this board was solid. He said it was a great sounding console (not even sure if he was aware of the price, which is kinda of funny).

CONTEXT:

1. He is WAY too busy building amazing gear, so he's darn neutral, not on these forums, etc. He has his own company and is in no way associated with PMI.

2. I don't have ANYTHING to gain from saying any of this, don't work for anyone except myself, am an ACTUAL owner, so take it for what you want.

I just wish this and other forums could be a more FACTUALLY helpful place.

VERDICT: The Toft ATB

-andrews

[planet red]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

The majority of people LOVE their Toft ATB and are off USING it. Imagine that

This just leaves

1. People who don't have much else to do but complain on forums.

2. And MANY non-owners just perpetuating negativity.

3. People who tried it and weren't impressed. Even on the A/B comparison most people chose the Oram board.

I don't understand why everyone gets so defensive about this console. If you love it, great.. but its not for everyone.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by planet red

3. People who tried it and weren't impressed. Even on the A/B comparison most people chose the Oram board.

I don't understand why everyone gets so defensive about this console. If you love it, great.. but its not for everyone.

Agreed on the "not for everyone," NOTHING is and isn't it funny how vocal "group #3" is?

-a

[ORAM]

I thought Ciozzi performed a very fair test. Didn't he?
The bottom line of all this comes down to the signal path that people prefer most. I have used the same circuitry that I created in the 70s to make the Series 80 what is it was, and what it is. Why our competition didn't copy that faithfully I don't know?
Obviously they didn't and thought they were improving it by the changes they made.
You guys have chosen what you prefer as did the thousands who voted for the Trident 8T at the TEC Awards.
Choice is good and much better than no choice.
Of course there could be improvements in everything. We do the best we can with the resources we have at the time.
My Series 80 circuits have proven to be good over the years. Why fix it if it ain't broken?
The market is the best place to decide who does what best.

You guys have ears and you've used them. Thank you.

JOHN ORAM
TRIDENT AUDIO LTD., ENGLAND

[Dirty Halo]

If this place becomes too much like the mags that are nothing but ads and annoying subscription cards that fall out all over the place... I'm done.

That last post above this is one big ad.

Thanks for that (read sarcasm)

-a

[kats]

Fair game though - Allen did the same on the mp3 shootout thread.

[Andrew Kinsey]

Company Director - Vs- Company Designer

Made in China - Vs - Made in the UK.

parent company who manufactures budget products - vs - company who manufacturers high end gear, users include Al Scmitt.

which would you choose to build you a mixer for the same price?

[Andrew Kinsey]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

If this place becomes too much like the mags that are nothing but ads and annoying subscription cards that fall out all over the place... I'm done.

That last post above this is one big ad.

Thanks for that (read sarcasm)

-a

Its not a mag / advertising thing..

The fact is that for well over a year now some people on here have been wrongfully slating the Trident board without hearing it. Any manufacturer would be posting on this forum given those circumstances.

[sage691]

Originally Posted by Trident Audio

I thought Ciozzi performed a very fair test. Didn't he?
The bottom line of all this comes down to the signal path that people prefer most. I have used the same circuitry that I created in the 70s to make the Series 80 what is it was, and what it is. Why our competition didn't copy that faithfully I don't know?
Obviously they didn't and thought they were improving it by the changes they made.
You guys have chosen what you prefer as did the thousands who voted for the Trident 8T at the TEC Awards.
Choice is good and much better than no choice.
Of course there could be improvements in everything. We do the best we can with the resources we have at the time.
My Series 80 circuits have proven to be good over the years. Why fix it if it ain't broken?
The market is the best place to decide who does what best.

You guys have ears and you've used them. Thank you.

JOHN ORAM
TRIDENT AUDIO LTD., ENGLAND

I haven't heard the 8T, but a friend of mine brought over the S80 producer box and we A/B'd it to my Series 80 console strips (tracking to 2" and using same EQ curves) and it was the closest thing I've yet heard to THAT sound you get on the 80.

Way to go John !

[cynics1207]

i'd listen to the A/B sample. i prefer Toft ATB. think of getting one after i sold my neve bcm10..i know it's not the same league compare to the neve, but i think this is the best with money can buy in it own class. i have neve 1073, i dont care if the toft preamp is not the high end slut choice, but i prefer the eq and the sound on that ATB.
For the A/B comparison test, few people opinion is not for all, and mix's TEC awards suck these day. mbox 2 beat Benchmark and Lavry and won the best a/d/a awards in TEC 2006 !??

[dlmorley]

I think in this price range, it's amazing that there is any choice of consoles that sound great.

Buy a desk and make records

Neotek, Trident, Toft, D&R, Audient and others all making great analog desks at various prices, but they are all affordable in their ranges.

Both the 16ch Toft and Trident are about £2000 (meter bridge extra)
I call that a BARGAIN for a new desk with VERY useable pre's and EQ

Personal choice is the variable and people get very defensive about the desk they bought (unless they have issues in which case they were screwed by the company)

If you can't try them out, then read as much as possible about the desks (filtering the junk if poss) and make a calculated choice.

Also, all gear is guaranteed and most dealers offer returns. If you get something and it doesn't do what it should do, send it back

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

Its not a mag / advertising thing..

The fact is that for well over a year now some people on here have been wrongfully slating the Trident board without hearing it. Any manufacturer would be posting on this forum given those circumstances.

No, its a dealer thing.

Which do YOU sell?

-a

[CKK]

I have never liked any of the products Malcome Toft's made after leaving Trident - to much "low-end" products comming from him.

Most of the stuff that John Oram's made since the "split-up", I have really enjoyed (- the S100 that can be used on drums only in my opinion).

I must say that its nice to see that John is here - and being civilized. Specially with all the hate comming from many GS members.

If you think that John is advertising strong here - go search on Allen's post here. I think you will find that he's the great grand father of gearpush.

and a for the fun of it.