opinions on the Innertube U87 kit ?

[gevermil]

I was looking at the Innertube mod or the klause heyne mod for a U87.
How applicable is the mic to various sources with the tube mod .
Im gathering from reading about it that It sounds great but turns the U87 into a one trick pony , where as Klauses mod keeps the mic versitle .
Any responses would be great
G

[seaneldon]

Anyone who claims that the InnerTUBE mod makes the microphone a "one trick pony" has probably only used it once, or never at all, because the opposite is actually quite true. If anything, it opens up the U87 to MORE applications thanks to the far superior, more musical/euphonic amplifier (in my estimation...but hey, i'm only a guy who has actually used both the straight and the TUBE87)

Don't trust things you read on the internet just because they're on the internet. This post included! Listen for yourself. The mod only takes 30 seconds or so to do and is 100% reversable if you decide you hate it and want to return it.

It's a mod that takes way less time than getting on a KH wait list, too (though the Klaus U87s are also a force to be reckoned with!)

[kats]

Im gathering from reading about it that It sounds great but turns the U87 into a one trick pony , where as Klauses mod keeps the mic versitle .
Any responses would be great

That's pretty funny actually...

[Empire Prod]

I would suggest getting the Innertube mod because it sounds amazing and can be reversed in a matter of 5 minutes.

[toledo3]

Yeah, the Innertube mod is great because it is so instant.

Some other mic modders and builders have posted less than enthusiastically about their opinions about the mod, but I think it is a little bit of sour grapes. I read a comment where a builder said they were "less than inspired" by the circuit. Well, I am less than inspired by the sound of their mics!!! Theories about circuits are secondary to actual sound. I don't care if something is a cathode follower, personally, if it knocks the socks off of the sound of something that is theoretically a better design.

[popmann]

Since you can swap the amp in and out, unlike other mods...I'd say it's a two trick pony at the least.

I think it's amazing. Wish I could afford to keep one around here. I rent it when I can afford it. I do remember prefering the stock 87i on acoustic guitar, and the IT87AI did better on my amp than the IT87i...but, I really didn't spend much time comparing for anything but vocals.

What I do know? IT87i+MilleniaHv3=tonal perfection for my voice. Little La3a come mix time...rarely any EQ. Present but soft...full but not tubby...airy but not strident...middy but not honky...

[gevermil]

nice replys . One trick pony isnt really what I meant and yes some opinions were from
other mic builders ( sour grapes ) . I like your discription popman .

[Rick Sutton]

Many years ago I had two U87's. They were nice mics, I used them occassionaly. A friend suggested I try the Innertube mod. I had one sent in and put it into one of the mics. Tried the two 87's side by side for a day on many sources. The unmodded mic, as always, sounded nice...the modded mic sounded great. Had to go borrow some more money and get the second one modded immediately.

[kats]

I have 2. The PSU on the newer one is much quieter than the older one. I also have a preference for Amperex Holland (white lettering) 6922 valves in that mic.

The sound to my ears compared to stock U87 is this. Much more detail and extension in the top end as well as the bottom. This seems to lessen the hi mid emphasis of an AI as well as relaxing the low mid thang you come to expect from an 87. This combined with the higher headroom of the mic gives the effect of an overall smoother sounding mic as well as less veiled and 2D than a stock 87

It is however, less forward sounding (or in your face) than a stock 87. For example if you put an 87 in front of a distorted cab you really get an in your face crunchy sound, whereas when you hit the tube version with hi SPL it sounds much softer.

In distant mic applications, it does not have the weight of say a U47. It's still good, but a 47 will beat it everytime in that regard.

Along those lines when it comes to vox, the balance sounds just about right when your within about 1 foot of the capsule before it starts thinning out. The problem is that while it can handle big SPL's, the output is so hot you end up clipping the input of your preamp. Your first instinct is to back the singer off, but I've found it sounds better to pad the input of the pre rather than having the singer back off 2 ft. It kind of depends on depends obviously, but a little proximaty effect on the mic helps.

[WunderBro Flo]

hi guys,
to bring this up again, did anyone who owns the IT record a take or two with the stock 87 and the IT version for comparison? As usual, hearing the difference makes 100 times more sense than reading about it. Anyone? I would love to hear it, as many others too!

Rock on!
Pat

[ricknroll]

If you're interested in the InnerTube 87, you should just order one from Stayne and try it yourself. He offers a trial period so there's really no risk involved. If you don't like it, you'll just be out the cost of shipping.

I tried one and compared it to my Klaus Heyne modded U87, but I thought the KH version sounded much better. The one advantage the InnerTube had was the increased headroom, but the difference in sound was too significant to ignore.

[WunderBro Flo]

trouble is I live in Europe, that means paying shipping, import taxes and costoms. In cas I do not like it I have to send it back and pay import taxes, customs and shipping to the US again. Too much loss involved, would be about 500.- just for trying it out...
Speaking of your KH modded U87, do you also have a stock U87 to do a side by side comparison? Would love to hear that one too!

Rock on!
Pat

[ricknroll]

Pat,

I did borrow a stock U87 once just to compare, but I didn't make any recordings with it. Hopefully you'll find someone in Europe with the InnerTube mic you can try out - I would hate to buy something like that just hoping it would work out. I don't usually put too much stock in sound clips, because unless I'm recording that same source in the same room, hearing an MP3 someone else recorded doesn't provide me with much useful information. I really need to try the thing out for myself how I'm going to use it.

For the price of a U87 + InnerTube kit, you could get a Gefell UM92.1S or UM92S (which I personally like better than the InnerTube U87 combo).

Rick

[dubrichie]

pat,

i have a pair of 87AI, both IT modded. i would be happy to have you over for a shoot out. we could simply swap back the original SS innards on one of the mics.

so, if you fancy a wee holiday in ireland, gimme a shout! i've a comfy couch to crash on too.

[TornadoTed]

I've got a InnerTube Audio mod for my vintage (1970) U87. I love it both stock and with the ITA mod. The ITA modded mic is the best valve mic I've ever heard. I will admit that I haven't heard vintage U47's, U67's, C12's but I have Nady mics modded with Cinemag transformers and Peluso capsules. I have also used the AKG SolidTube & M-Audio Sputnik.

[WunderBro Flo]

Originally Posted by ricknroll

Pat,

I did borrow a stock U87 once just to compare, but I didn't make any recordings with it. Hopefully you'll find someone in Europe with the InnerTube mic you can try out - I would hate to buy something like that just hoping it would work out. I don't usually put too much stock in sound clips, because unless I'm recording that same source in the same room, hearing an MP3 someone else recorded doesn't provide me with much useful information. I really need to try the thing out for myself how I'm going to use it.

For the price of a U87 + InnerTube kit, you could get a Gefell UM92.1S or UM92S (which I personally like better than the InnerTube U87 combo).

Rick

I agree - but I am not interested in hearing clips of the IT 87 only - it would only make sense to hear the same source recorded with a stock 87 beside the IT87 as well. That would tell us a lot about the difference. Anything else makes no sense.
I do not expect the IT mod to blow me away (I am not a fan of the U87 at all to begin with) but it might happen anyway. So it is way too risky for me to just buy it and find out if I like it.
Rock on!
Pat

[WunderBro Flo]

Originally Posted by dubrichie

pat,

i have a pair of 87AI, both IT modded. i would be happy to have you over for a shoot out. we could simply swap back the original SS innards on one of the mics.

so, if you fancy a wee holiday in ireland, gimme a shout! i've a comfy couch to crash on too.

wow, thanks for the generous offer - but it´s impossible for me to do trips like that at the moment, I got a baby and a girlfriend and no time or money to do stuff like that - those things keep you busy as hell the first years ;-)

but since you have two, can you put the stock electronics in one and put them side by side to record a take of spoken voice or singing? I would even pay you for your studio time, I do not expect anyone to spend time for nothing! If that´s ok with you please let me know, I would love to hear the difference!
Rock on!
Pat

[dubrichie]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

wow, thanks for the generous offer - but it´s impossible for me to do trips like that at the moment, I got a baby and a girlfriend and no time or money to do stuff like that - those things keep you busy as hell the first years ;-)

but since you have two, can you put the stock electronics in one and put them side by side to record a take of spoken voice or singing? I would even pay you for your studio time, I do not expect anyone to spend time for nothing! If that´s ok with you please let me know, I would love to hear the difference!
Rock on!
Pat

sure thing, but i refuse to accept any payment for doing so since i'll be doing it anyway sometime in the next 2 weeks, once the new studio is up and running.

i'll post them up here when it happens.

best of luck with all that's keeping you busy!

[jaguarsg]

ITA mod sounded really nice when i heard it at tapeop con 07.

much more detailed and sensitive sounding than the stock 87.

[ricknroll]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

I agree - but I am not interested in hearing clips of the IT 87 only - it would only make sense to hear the same source recorded with a stock 87 beside the IT87 as well. That would tell us a lot about the difference.

Pat,

I'm actually talking about comparison MP3s - I heard sound clips of an unmodified U87 and the InnerTube amp with the sample capsule (maybe it was our buddy Katz here? They were posted as .wav files on the KH forum over at PSW), and based on that, I thought I would like the InnerTube mod. But when I actually tried one, I didn't like it. That's just one example, but in line with my general experience with sound clips that they aren't very helpful to me - I need to try the stuff out first hand.

Rick

[kats]

Hey sorry about those old clips... I lost them when I switched servers.

I'm doing a shootout this weekend actually so I'll throw up the ITA and stock 87 for you - I might actually be able to find the old files even sooner.

Ricknroll, I still think yours was fvcked. We just had a vocal shootout today between a um900, u47, and tube 87. The tube 87 took it again.

Compared to the Um900, the Gefell seemed like a toy - and it is a great mic in it's own right.

The u47 is of course glorious (it's my personal favorite mic) but it works better when there's alot of space in the arrangement etc etc. It has alot more weight than the Tube 87 and sounds better on distant sources as well.

But for the "full band thing" etc, the tube 87 is IMO, is world class. Like the U47 it's a straight wire design, no NFB so you don't get that smeary crap - just wonderfull clarity.

Give me till Monday or so.

[rob S]

i've had the innertube for about 10years now.
i think it sounds real good.

[anguswoodhead]

The people I have talked to (like Gunter Wagner here in OZ) say if you want a U87 buy one - if you want a valve neumann buy one of those - kind of makes sense to me.
By the time you buy a U87 then the Mod the price is getting up there.
I made the decision to buy a U47 copy (Wunder CM7) - I was going to buy the U87Ai and the ITA Mod but changed my mind.
I guess if you already have a U87 then ok. Although Gunter suggested that there a lot of ways that the U87 can go wrong - so if it doesn't sound quite right chances are there could be something needing tweaking.

[WunderBro Flo]

Originally Posted by dubrichie

sure thing, but i refuse to accept any payment for doing so since i'll be doing it anyway sometime in the next 2 weeks, once the new studio is up and running.

i'll post them up here when it happens.

best of luck with all that's keeping you busy!

Hey that´s so supernice of you, thanks a million!
Pat

[WunderBro Flo]

Another thought rick, I remember Klaus Heyne talking about the Neumann capsules and that after bypassing the filters and everything it turns out that some sound great and some simply don´t. So if yours was not broken, maybe you were just out of luck because you had a not so good sounding capsule in your 87...might be possible.

The thing is, if you listen to well done comparison tests, they DO tell you exatly what´s going on. The same test setup in your own studio would give you exactly the same differences - it makes no diffeerence who did the test where as long as it has been carried out well. Problem is that most people do not do tests right. There is sooo much possible pitfalls in testing when you do not record the same take, that most of the time people think they judge mics, preamps and converters when in reality they only pick the take that they like best.


So if we end up with a great test here with a stock87 and a IT87 next to each other, recording the same take, then that would be extremely helpful. The same goes for the KH mod. And if we wanna get superexact, then we should do each test twice with the capsules changed - meaning the capsule that got the modded electronics in the first run gets the stock electronics in the second one. that way we can rule out that one of the mics is better/different sounding because the capsules might sound different...

Thanks a lot guys!
Pat

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

... I remember Klaus Heyne talking about the Neumann capsules and ... that some sound great and some simply don´t. So if yours was not broken, maybe you were just out of luck because you had a not so good sounding capsule in your 87...

...The same goes for the KH mod. And if we wanna get superexact, then we should do each test twice with the capsules changed - meaning the capsule that got the modded electronics in the first run gets the stock electronics in the second one. that way we can rule out that one of the mics is better/different sounding because the capsules might sound different...

I don't think that any serious approach to modifying a condenser microphone can get around the fact that each capsule sounds different, and that this difference somehow needs to be compensated for in the mic processor/amp.
Your idea may be a good one in theory, but in the case of my U87 mods, swapping out heads or amps is not useful in understanding whether the mod is successful or not:

I fine tune the capsule as part of the customization, i.e. I optimize it to reign in extremes, and to match it to the amp's response and the client's application and needs. A very harsh, midrangy capsule will get a different mechanical capsule and amp treatment than a soft, midrange shy one, and so on.

In the end, beyond the basic approach to the modification, the idea is to match capsule and amp, so these components can work in harmony rather than fight each other to a less than pleasing standoff. That means, a mic modded with this approach should always be evaluated as a whole (I even supply the cable so that my efforts are not diminished by even a minor component I had no control over at the time of the mod.)

Best regards,
Klaus Heyne

[whitepapagold]

My U87 should be here next week! Just sent return shipping info to Klaus and I can't wait!

I have to say what sold me on klaus, other than his reputation in general, was the concept of taking what you already have and trying to make it sound its best- relatively speaking.

I do salt water reef tanks on occasion professionally (as art, not pet care) and they are VERY expensive. BUT I get paid because once Im done, it will look like the ocean- NOT a bunch of 1/2 dead liverock with chunks of life scattered about. I have never seen tanks where the rock looks as natural as mine. The only reason thats true is because I orient the entire tank around the eco system of the live rock. I let the rock and typical tank parameters control the environment. I use NO filtration except live rock and plants (in the back filter space). Basically the goal is to let the reef become as beautiful as it can if left to its own devices with minimal maintenance.

I think thats the same thing he's doing (but of course Klaus can speak for himself!). Hes optimising the situation with an approach that is different from most. Its more intangible, more artform, and more personal than just popping some components in or out.

Bob Moog always claimed there was a special interaction of intangibility between musician and instrument and I would tend to agree!

Regardless, I have some pretty big sessions coming up that will allow me to really get an idea of the modded mic as well as 2 other vintage u87s to compare it to! I can't WAIT!

[WunderBro Flo]

bumping this up again!

Are they mics here already for recording a quick comparison stock vs IT?

Rock on!
Pat

[kats]

I did a shootout last week with a stock 87, IT 87, T-USA u47 AE, and an Original U47 (M7/Vf14m) and if I would only be able to keep one it would be the Tube 87.

No shit...

But luckily I don't have to make that decision and get to use them all (my partner actually has 2 vintage U47s and I have the T-USA U47 AE).

Just a couple issues you have to put up with though. Firstly, the PSU's on the IT 87's make noise - they hum. It's just the way the are. And secondly, both my IT mods cames wired phase reversed (I always check that stuff) so you may want to swap pin 2 and 3 on the PSU.

Sorry though, I won't post sound files. Get a demo.

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by kats

I did a shootout last week with a stock 87, IT 87, T-USA u47 AE, and an Original U47 (M7/Vf14m) and if I would only be able to keep one it would be the Tube 87.

No shit...

But luckily I don't have to make that decision and get to use them all (my partner actually has 2 vintage U47s and I have the T-USA U47 AE).

Just a couple issues you have to put up with though. Firstly, the PSU's on the IT 87's make noise - they hum. It's just the way the are. And secondly, both my IT mods cames wired phase reversed (I always check that stuff) so you may want to swap pin 2 and 3 on the PSU.

Sorry though, I won't post sound files. Get a demo.

boooooooooo......

would anyone volunteer even a snippet? i too am considering an IT for my u87ai. clips aren't the same as owning/trying but they've helped me a lot on this site before.

could someone even just do a take of a verse with a vocalist, swap it out, then the same take again without? for 10 min work at most i imagine it would be greatly appreciated.

pretty please? anyone?