Question about Tonelux MOAC bus comp--input please!

[ToneLux]

As I am finalizing the design of my stereo bus compressor, I have some questions for the high end users of what they feel is important. I figured that this info might also be useful for others doing the same.

Many know that we are going to introduce a stereo bus compressor. I have been stuck with a couple of basic decisions that I can't seem to nail on the head.

Here they are:

1 There are several ways to do the release of a compressor. The most popular are "auto release" and the standard. From what I have been able to come up with, I can have several options that would include the basic linear release, 2 stage auto release (basically slower for the lows and faster for the peaks), a 3 stage auto release (lows, mids and highs) and possibly a variable release that is totally frequency dependent. Let me know your views.

2 Attack time. The attack of any compressor can be as fast as you want it to be, but the faster it is , the more the wave form will modulate the signal, causing distortion. Typically, there are 2 ways to do fast attack. One is in the RMS detector, which would be using the smoothing cap to set the limit of how fast, and the adjustable series charging time of the circuit. My question is: How fast would be fast enough? I can set the unit up for 2 settings for the smoothing cap so there would be a lightning fast settings for peaks and a normal setting for normal signals (or both).

3 Resettability. There are 2 ways to do this. One is with linear stepped pots in the analog domain and with rotary encoders that would change the parameters and the final one would be the encoders with a memory for recall. The question is: Is resettability a must with a bus compressor, and if so, what kind of file would you like it to be for off line editing? The ups and downs: analog controls would have many more knobs, encoders could have less (I promise not 1 or 2!) The encoders would still be analog, just digital control of the analog.

4 The encoder version could have a remote control. Good or not needed?

Thanks in advance, I think it will be a nice unit when done...

Paul

[gainreduction]

Cool, I'm sure it will be a great unit.

My highly personal view:

1. Variety and choice is great but I hardly use anything else than a fast release (around 100ms) or auto. The different auto releases you describe might be great but is not a deal breaker in my world.

2. My usual complaint is that the attack time isn't slow enough. I rarely go below 10-30ms so fast is not a concern for me. Maybe include it in a separate soft limit section and call it the "A&R button". Instant flatline for the suits.

3. For me resettability is fine just with clear legending and in a perfect world stepped pots.

4. Not needed.

I wanna add to this that very high on my wish list is:

- A HPF on the sidechain with a good range of selectable frequencies, all the way up in the low midrange.

- Wide range of selection in the lower ratios. I want 10 steps between 1:1 and 3:1 or "sweepable".

- a clear and simple to use device that just sounds great rather than a million options and fiddly box that needs lots of tweaking to get right.

Best of luck with the design.

[raal]

i would prefer digitally controlled analog over stepped pots personally, but i think it's important that recall be available by whatever means, so either way is fine. 10 steps between 1:1 and 3:1 not so important to me personally.

other than that, +1 to everything gainreduction posted, specially the side chain feature. if she could also do parallel processing that would be a biggie for me.

[GrooveMerchant]

Paul, what will be the big differences b/w your new bus compressor and just using two of your existing TXC modular compressors with the link functionality? The new one will be a 1U or 2U box vs. needing to go with a V8 or VRack? Sorry if this seems like a silly question - I was planning on getting 2 TXC units and covering most duties with those versatile units.

[ToneLux]

Originally Posted by GrooveMerchant

Paul, what will be the big differences b/w your new bus compressor and just using two of your existing TXC modular compressors with the link functionality? The new one will be a 1U or 2U box vs. needing to go with a V8 or VRack? Sorry if this seems like a silly question - I was planning on getting 2 TXC units and covering most duties with those versatile units.

The bus compressor will have a few more features, but not too much different than the TXC. The there will be a side chain in (same), but a side chain insert, too, it will have some very good metering, slow modes, ultra fast modes, HF limiter, there will be comp/input blend like the TXC, but with a insert for the dry signal, multi release feature, and a couple other "secret" surprises.

Some of these features will require digital control, so that is why I am asking...

[kyle barton]

is the MOAC going to be 19" rack or the tonelux format?

[allaccess]

Paul-

Digital control would be cool, but make all the important knobs be available at all times with dedicated displays (like a ring of LCDs or something). the tweaky stuff can be buried... Threshold, attack, release, ratio.

Also on that topic, when the MOAC is powered down or loses power in an outage, it should power up with its last settings. another thing that pisses me off about the smart that comes back to life bypassed.

Need to be able to defeat whatever clever auto gain makeup that you devise!

a remote would be a great option! I would love to be able to sit in the sweet spot and tweak the buss compressor! (A remote control buss EQ would be a fantastic thing as well for the future product list...)

definitely an HPF for the sidechain

definitely make the maximum threshold setting go to whatever the maximum headroom is! (like +26) I always run out of room on buss compressors... I like to slam the buss level on the board sometimes, but without much compression. as a result, my limiter kicks in too early...

definitely make more than a few attack and release times available, but not necessarily sweepable. It drives me nuts using plug-ins that allow you to have infinite control. Like gainreduction, I would love to have an attack slower than 30ms and a release faster than 100ms (quoting my oft used smart C2). and several ratios available between 1 and 4 would be nice to give things a gentle squeeze.

The overcompress mode that you have on the THX would be cool too for a drum squeeze.

as for recall... just put a receipt printer on the back panel so it can spit out the settings!

what else... oh! make sure that it runs hot enough to burn up the rest of my gear like certain other brands! That would rule...

The features that you've divulged so far are going to make this a sick box!

Can't wait!

Ryan Hewitt

[ToneLux]

Originally Posted by allaccess

Paul-

Digital control would be cool, but make all the important knobs be available at all times with dedicated displays (like a ring of LCDs or something). the tweaky stuff can be buried... Threshold, attack, release, ratio.

Also on that topic, when the MOAC is powered down or loses power in an outage, it should power up with its last settings. another thing that pisses me off about the smart that comes back to life bypassed.

Need to be able to defeat whatever clever auto gain makeup that you devise!

a remote would be a great option! I would love to be able to sit in the sweet spot and tweak the buss compressor! (A remote control buss EQ would be a fantastic thing as well for the future product list...)

definitely an HPF for the sidechain

definitely make the maximum threshold setting go to whatever the maximum headroom is! (like +26) I always run out of room on buss compressors... I like to slam the buss level on the board sometimes, but without much compression. as a result, my limiter kicks in too early...

definitely make more than a few attack and release times available, but not necessarily sweepable. It drives me nuts using plug-ins that allow you to have infinite control. Like gainreduction, I would love to have an attack slower than 30ms and a release faster than 100ms (quoting my oft used smart C2). and several ratios available between 1 and 4 would be nice to give things a gentle squeeze.

The overcompress mode that you have on the THX would be cool too for a drum squeeze.

as for recall... just put a receipt printer on the back panel so it can spit out the settings!

what else... oh! make sure that it runs hot enough to burn up the rest of my gear like certain other brands! That would rule...

The features that you've divulged so far are going to make this a sick box!

Can't wait!

Ryan Hewitt

All that... and Yes it will be 19" and 2U...

[gainreduction]

When can we expect to get our hands on one ?

[ToneLux]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

When can we expect to get our hands on one ?

Shooting for Feb...

[Tom H]

1. Release: The 3 stage auto release sounds interesting, if it can result in a natural / musical sounding release curve that would be awsome! Combined with a variable 50ms to 3s setting this would create a lot of options.

2. Attack: For stereobus comp work I usually pick slow attacks, 5ms to 50ms would work out fine for me. Of course other people would like to see faster attacks like 0,1 ms and while I wouldn't demand them the comp would become a lot more versatile for me.

3. Resettability: This is an interesting point. I must admit for 2bus work stepped analog pots would be sufficient for me for recall. BUT if digital control means you can store settings in your DAW, perhaps even on a MIDI track so you could automate those settings, that would be an amazing development. (I really hope this is the future of some analog gear especially EQ's)

4. Remote control: Would be cool as an option, pesonally I wouldn't need it for now.


Other features like blend control, sidechain with a wide variable HPF and a dual mono mode are more than welcome!

Good luck with the design of your compressor, i'm sure it will become a badass piece of gear.

[Drumsound]

I like the idea of different release characteristics. I really like fast attack and release being an option. Make that thing as fast as you can! I know this is a bus compressor, but if I've got something in my racks I'm gonna try it while tracking and also on other things than the mix bus when I mix. The internal sidechain filter is a must for 2-bus work. I'd be fine with stepped or switched attack and release knobs. Digital control should be fine but it's also another thing that can go wrong. I like things to be simple and understandable if something goes down in the field. A (physical) remote just adds clutter. Software remote would be great for all those folks ho use a computer though, it just won't help me.

[u b k]

add my vote for the ability to have uberfast release times; even 50ms is often way too slow. this is one of the key elements of creative compression, the kinds of things plugs can do but most boxes can't.


gregoire
del
ubk
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[kyle barton]

how about m/s functionality?

[ToneLux]

Originally Posted by kyle barton

how about m/s functionality?

Many have asked this. I used to record a lot that way with tape, when doing remotes, just to keep the azmuth thing under control.

I have never used M/S in compression. I know what it does, but never played with it. What are you looking for and what are the advantages?

It sounds like a similar set up as a vinyl disc compressor, which had the dual channel mode and the vertical mode.

I wonder if the use of it is as valuable now days, since you don't have to follow the rules about the loud stuff being in the center.

Fill me in.

[gainreduction]

I think it's mostly mastering guys who need the M/S mode.

If you can access the middle channel you might just be able to save a mix where the vocal is too low.

Others use it for pseudo-widening by processing the sides differently than the middle.

I think the key here is that the M and S have insert points so you can throw in additional processing.

[andychamp]

Another advantage of M/S (actually: sum&difference)processing would be that it allows you to adjust the stereo width of the signal at the output, by changing the balance between the two.
100% sum = mono
50% sum + 50% difference = standard stereo
100% difference = extra-wide stereo

[ToneLux]

I had a studio customer that used to ask me to make it wider...

Both will have inserts, and the M/S circuit is pretty simple. Would a balance control that worked when the M/S was on work for you?

[kyle barton]

Originally Posted by ToneLux

Both will have inserts, and the M/S circuit is pretty simple. Would a balance control that worked when the M/S was on work for you?

instead of a balance knob, how about separate output level controls that worked before the M/S decoding? just turn down the side channel to make it more mono, turn down the M channel to make it more stereo or bring up the vocal or whatever.

a mute switch for each channel before the decoding would be great as well, so that you could hear the compression settings separately.

[Reptil]

I really like the bandpass filter on a stereo compressor not unfamiliar to you.

[Tom H]

Originally Posted by andychamp

Another advantage of M/S (actually: sum&difference)processing would be that it allows you to adjust the stereo width of the signal at the output, by changing the balance between the two.
100% sum = mono
50% sum + 50% difference = standard stereo
100% difference = extra-wide stereo

Yes, that's basicly how the width works on my Tfpro P38, the advantage of having this built in to a compressor is that you can bring back a little stereo you might have lost after compressing. ( wich can happen when you compress a stereo source ) Sometimes usefull on the 2 buss but nicer on a subgroup. IMO

Originally Posted by ToneLux

I had a studio customer that used to ask me to make it wider...

Well.... than we better have a knob for that.



Would the M/S circuit actually be before or after the mix blend? I would say after but since you also mentioned inserts I can see advantages in putting it before too.

[not_so_new]

Hey Paul

I like all the ideas I have heard here. The digital control thing is very cool, I am all about that. That is how my Great River EQ works now as it is.

The big things I would want are

1) Input and output trannies. Color baby color. Even if they can be switched out of path no problem but the more color I can get the better.

2) I am with Alan and gainreduction on the attack and release times

3) A blend knob (you already talked about this...)

4) stepped controls are fine for repeatability

5) The 3 stage release sounds really interesting

6) A variable HPF

7) Did I mention color?

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by ToneLux

(...) possibly a variable release that is totally frequency dependent. Let me know your views.

Sounds good, but how does it...y'know...sound?
Would be cool to have a way to automatically set it just a tad slower than the lowest frequency, so as to be the fastest possible without distortion.
Dunno if this is technically possible, I'm just throwing around ideas here.

2 Attack time.

Same basic idea as above, actually.

3 Resettability.

I think by now users have gotten used to the concept of "digitally-controlled analog", so I'd say go for the least cluttered solution, the one easiest to operate/reset.

[u b k]

hey, in the feng shui dept. please don't use any led's that beam out of the rack into the back of my eyeballs. i stuck some black gummy stuff over the blue power led on my 2500 because it was like a laser that always found its way into my skull, painfully.

in fact, i don't like blue light in my studio at all, it's cold and clinical. green is good, red is good, and big amber vu's are obviously the sweetest.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[raal]

Originally Posted by u b k

hey, in the feng shui dept. please don't use any led's that beam out of the rack into the back of my eyeballs.

lol. the loudest LEDs i've seen are on the TC vintage delay stomp box. now that's abnoxious.

[ToneLux]

Originally Posted by u b k

hey, in the feng shui dept. please don't use any led's that beam out of the rack into the back of my eyeballs. i stuck some black gummy stuff over the blue power led on my 2500 because it was like a laser that always found its way into my skull, painfully.

in fact, i don't like blue light in my studio at all, it's cold and clinical. green is good, red is good, and big amber vu's are obviously the sweetest.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

I know what you mean. I don't like blue, in fact I never use it for anything. When I did Lenny Kravitz console (96 input winged Legacy) he wanted 205 modules on each wing because they had blue leds in the 1/4 inch jack. He liked the way it lit the room.

Below is a front panel layout of the MOAC. Let me know what you think...

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by ToneLux

I know what you mean. I don't like blue, in fact I never use it for anything. When I did Lenny Kravitz console (96 input winged Legacy) he wanted 205 modules on each wing because they had blue leds in the 1/4 inch jack. He liked the way it lit the room.

Below is a front panel layout of the MOAC. Let me know what you think...

LOFL

Really.... that is freak'n funny!

[Jeff Goodman]

Seriously.

[mu6gr8]

Originally Posted by allaccess

...Like gainreduction, I would love to have an attack slower than 30ms and a release faster than 100ms (quoting my oft used smart C2). and several ratios available between 1 and 4 would be nice to give things a gentle squeeze.

+1. That's by far the most important stuff to me. Next would be dedicated knobs for attack, release, threshold & ratio.

Re: offline editing, a basic .txt file would be cool.

[ToneLux]

If I do a encoder interface, there will be dedicated knobs for Thresh, ratio, att, release, then the next knobs will be multi function. It is important that grabbing quickly doesn't require a zip code, area code and password for each function. I would like to find the first guy that thought a single knob was fine and beat an apology out of him.

The put those stupid one knob things in cars and they took a bug dump too. Maybe they should put them in airplanes. One encoder for Brakes, landing gear, flaps, engine speed, etc. We could get rid of the NTSB because everyone would know the cause...