Adam subwoofer placement

[american]

hi,

I have got a pair of Adam S3A and I would like to use an Audio Sub10 to fill out the low end.

How should I place this in my room? it is very small (10´x 12´), and I don´t have much problems with that. I just want to be sure about my very low frecuencies and want to be able to check those too.

thanks in advance

[beats workin']

hey American,
i have the same setup and it works very well for me with regard to mixing. Every room will want the sub placed differently, but I easily found the spot behind my console, in-between and in-line with the S3As. I face it sideways. Finding the optimal x-over and volume is another thing. You must resist the tempation to make it too high or loud. You don't want a dance hall in your control room- just enough to give you the information you need to accurately mix. A little goes a long way.
have fun,
David

[american]

thanks, david!

what is the proper way to find the best spot for its placement? just listening to it in various configurations? any tips?

[Fletcher]

I dunno... maybe it's just me... but I've never found I needed a sub woofer with S-3A's.

I guess if you're hell bent on doing something like that then either get two and put one under each cabinet... or just put it in the middle, preferably in the same horizontal plane as the other cabinets.

If you're doing a 5.1 thing then under your center speaker... or if you're doing a 5.2 [which is really 5.1 with two subs] thing then under each of the Front L & R speakers.

Best of luck with it!!

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by american

I have got a pair of Adam S3A and I would like to use an Audio Sub10 to fill out the low end.

I'm with Fletcher. Those speakers don't need a sub. You do need bass traps though. In a room that size and shape you need a lot of bass traps. But a lot of bass traps will help infinitely more than a sub.

--Ethan

[Fletcher]

To quote one of my favorite movie characters... "yeah baby"!! [well not really one of my favorite movie characters... but the first quote that came to mind]

With a 10'x 12' room [bigger than a jail cell, smaller than my kid's room] you're going to have all kinds of nodes and annodes in that room... while bass traps will indeed help [not fix(!!!), help] you're still pretty well screwed just from the dimensions of the shell. One thing you can do that might help things translate a bit better is to move your work postion so it is askew in the room. That way the reflections from each speaker have to go a good few bounces before they come back to you at the mix position... unfortunately, everything from 250Hz down will be pretty much "omni-directional" so you'll just have to try to find a spot in the room where you're getting "not to much" and "not to little" bass information as the modal patterns in that shell size will be all over the place.

Don't tell me... lemme guess. 8 foot ceilings... right? [psssst... you're pretty much screwed]

Trial and error of moving your work area around the room [along with some of Ethan's traps] are probably going to be your best bet for something that might somehow, somewhat resemble accurate bass response.

Best of luck... you're gonna need it!!!

Peace.

[wirerecording]

I have the S3A's and use the Sub 12 (silly overkill, but i got a great deal, and just wasn't sure as i am soon to move to a control room) an i too like it centered in line with S3A's I have it facing straight on sitting on a large very heavy tombstone (tombstone stores are great for finding speaker base size slabs of 10" thick granite...I prefer to get pieces that aren't inscribed)
Tuning it to your room is just a matter of listening to lots of CDs and tweaking the crossover/level/phase until it sounds "right" to your ears. I don't know of any formal way to do that than to fiddle with it

stuart

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by wirerecording

Tuning it to your room is just a matter of listening to lots of CDs and tweaking the crossover/level/phase until it sounds "right" to your ears. I don't know of any formal way to do that than to fiddle with it

There are lots of formal ways to do it... I use a 'real time analyzer' but that is to tune the speakers... you can ONLY tune a room with architecture.

You can put up band-aids like bass traps, you can put equalizers on the speakers to try to compensate for room deficiencies... but you can't tune rooms without moving walls.

Matter of semantics? Perhaps... but correct terminology is kinda key to effective communication... and knowledge will always triumph over ignorance.

Peace.

[american]

Don't tell me... lemme guess. 8 foot ceilings... right? [psssst... you're pretty much screwed]

you are right!!! I am screwed then... well, I know this is not ideal, but is the place where I have to work at the moment, so be it. But maybe I can solve some problems. Usually my mixes are translating well enough, but I realized one of the songs of the album I am mixing right now had a huge amount of very low frecuencies in the bass drum when I went to check them in a friends studio. I brought the subwoofer to my studio to check if it was helpful and even when I placed it without doing any measurements, I solved the problem with the kik acurately.
I know I have to leave this room soon, and I will. But meantime I will keep working and enjoying making music.
thanks for your help

[peeder]

I believe the S3As benefit mightily from a sub in most rooms. I tuned my sub with a parametric EQ just for the sub (I multed and did not feed the S3As from the sub, the S3As are left flat), just using the sub to fill the gaps at the mix position. I assessed that via test tones (sine wave sweeps and steadies focusing on 30-300Hz). With nearly a dozen Gik panels my room sounds fine at the mix position and the product generally doesn't require much rebalancing.

[wirerecording]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

There are lots of formal ways to do it... I use a 'real time analyzer' but that is to tune the speakers... you can ONLY tune a room with architecture.

i have used a TEF analyzer, but for the sub it worked much better for me to experiment with phase/level/crossover til i found my current ideal. I have heard many a room with a flat curve that sounded bad. If there is a formal way that doesn't involve listening and messing about (specifically with a sub), i am open to trying harder to improve my control room.

No argument with your room tuning thoughts. My 25x17x10 control room will never be perfect. the room I'm planning won't be perfect....i hope just a LOT fewer issues to deal with

<<Matter of semantics? Perhaps... but correct terminology is kinda key to effective communication... and knowledge will always triumph over ignorance.

Peace.

>>

Effective communication is truly the foundation of knowledge.
Unfortunately i can make strong argument that knowledge DOES NOT always triumph over ignorance. I only wish that were true

in a goofy manner

stuart

[wirerecording]

damn that last response got mixed in with Fletcher's quote.....oh well i guess that just validates the point that my communcation could be better

in a dimly goofy manner

stuart

[beats workin']

Hey wirerecording,
what's the deal with the tombstone? Do you find that having the sub on a solid piece of stone is a benefit over the wood floor? I happen to have a tombstone-like piece out on my terrace (don't ask).
thanks,
David

btw- I FULLY agree that you must tune your room as best as you can before even thinking of buying a sub. Seriously. Spend the $1400 on proper acoustic treatment (I will heartily recommend Ethan's products- they're all over my studio and made a tremendous improvement). Then, if you still need/want the sub you can get it. Likely your lack of low-end is the result of nodes in the room. Solve that and you won't need the sub so much. In that size room, you may be down 25 db at 70 Hz or something (just an example- you've got to do the math yourself!)
good luck,
David

[american]

Originally Posted by beats workin'

btw- I FULLY agree that you must tune your room as best as you can before even thinking of buying a sub. Seriously. Spend the $1400 on proper acoustic treatment (I will heartily recommend Ethan's products- they're all over my studio and made a tremendous improvement). Then, if you still need/want the sub you can get it. Likely your lack of low-end is the result of nodes in the room. Solve that and you won't need the sub so much. In that size room, you may be down 25 db at 70 Hz or something (just an example- you've got to do the math yourself!)
good luck,
David

Thanks again David,
excuse my ignorance...How do I do my math?

[american]

Originally Posted by beats workin'

btw- I FULLY agree that you must tune your room as best as you can before even thinking of buying a sub. Seriously. Spend the $1400 on proper acoustic treatment (I will heartily recommend Ethan's products- they're all over my studio and made a tremendous improvement). Then, if you still need/want the sub you can get it. Likely your lack of low-end is the result of nodes in the room. Solve that and you won't need the sub so much. In that size room, you may be down 25 db at 70 Hz or something (just an example- you've got to do the math yourself!)
good luck,
David

where can I have a look to those bass traps? Are you referring to Real Traps?

cheers

[wirerecording]

[quote=beats workin';1629742]Hey wirerecording,
what's the deal with the tombstone? Do you find that having the sub on a solid piece of stone is a benefit over the wood floor? I happen to have a tombstone-like piece out on my terrace (don't ask).
thanks,
David

Over the years i've tried many things, but at home with speakers on file cabnets i found that a heavy chunk of stone under the speakers seems to tighten up low end. I have some in the lounge for the speakers in there too, so i just moved those slabs under the sub (the slabs and sub sit on an old speaker cab), that put the sub at the right height and gave it some mass to sit on in hopes of tightening it up too. since i put the stones in/moved the sub up and moved the S3A's all at the same time, it is a bit more vague what caused what, but i do like where it is now. It will be early Dec before i have a day to really experiment much more and make a decision if i'm gonna change things again

stuart

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by american

where can I have a look to those bass traps? Are you referring to Real Traps?

RealTraps - Home

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by american

you are right!!! I am screwed then...

Well, there's screwed and then there's really screwed.

Actually, I agree with Fletcher that the semantically correct way to "tune a room" is to move walls. But you can still make a very big improvement in your current room with bass traps. Even four will make a very noticeable difference. And when you move to a new, better room, you can bring your traps with you. Just as you'd bring the rest of your gear.

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by beats workin'

In that size room, you may be down 25 db at 70 Hz or something

It's even worse than that because it's not a single frequency. The graph below shows a response typical of small rooms. Note the peak/dip pair at 110 and 122 Hz where the response varies a staggering 32 dB across a range smaller than one musical whole step. This is what folks in small rooms are really up against. Worse, the peaks and nulls change as you move around the room. Even if you move only a few inches.

--Ethan

[american]

Ethan, I sent you a PM

thanks all for your help!!!

[mikecook]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

To quote one of my favorite movie characters... "yeah baby"!! [well not really one of my favorite movie characters... but the first quote that came to mind]

With a 10'x 12' room [bigger than a jail cell, smaller than my kid's room] you're going to have all kinds of nodes and annodes in that room... while bass traps will indeed help [not fix(!!!), help] you're still pretty well screwed just from the dimensions of the shell. One thing you can do that might help things translate a bit better is to move your work postion so it is askew in the room. That way the reflections from each speaker have to go a good few bounces before they come back to you at the mix position... unfortunately, everything from 250Hz down will be pretty much "omni-directional" so you'll just have to try to find a spot in the room where you're getting "not to much" and "not to little" bass information as the modal patterns in that shell size will be all over the place.

Don't tell me... lemme guess. 8 foot ceilings... right? [psssst... you're pretty much screwed]

Trial and error of moving your work area around the room [along with some of Ethan's traps] are probably going to be your best bet for something that might somehow, somewhat resemble accurate bass response.

Best of luck... you're gonna need it!!!

Peace.

Fletcher mentioned moving your workstation so it is askew in the room... is that a common thing for guys to do??? I seem to remember reading that in the past, but I also see alot of comments on keeping things symmetrical inside the room. I'm really keen to find this out since I just received my Sub6 yesterday!!
cheers
Mike

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by mikecook

I also see alot of comments on keeping things symmetrical inside the room.

Yes, symmetry is preferred. You solve bass problems with loudspeaker placement and with bass traps. The only way to know which placements are best is to measure the LF response as you move things around. And you need to measure at high resolution, not third-octaves as was done years ago. See this:

RealTraps - How To Set Up a Room

And this:

RealTraps - Optimizing Acoustic Treatment using ETF

--Ethan

[mikecook]

thanks Ethan!

[slybass3000]

I know this is an old thread but it is worth it I guess.

I'm using s2a with a sub 8. My concern is how should I plug my set-up. There seem to be 2 ways of thinking: go in the sub and to the nearfield or slit the signal to both (sub and speakers).

What would be the right way? I can't make up my mind!

Sylvain

[peeder]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

I know this is an old thread but it is worth it I guess.

I'm using s2a with a sub 8. My concern is how should I plug my set-up. There seem to be 2 ways of thinking: go in the sub and to the nearfield or slit the signal to both (sub and speakers).

What would be the right way? I can't make up my mind!

Sylvain

try try again