question regarding recorderman's overhead technique

[brownmouse]

hey guys and gals,
i am getting ready to try the recorder man overhead technique (i've been using xy and want to try something different) and i've found plenty of info on it during a search. i do have one question though... where are the 2 mics pointed at? both at the snare or one at snare one at something else? i'm guessing it depends .... but a starting point would be nice. (i don't suppose anyone would have a picture of this setup would they? a visual would be nice)
thanks in advance
joshua

[bassmac]

...

[heinz]

bzzt. wrongo herr bassmac

Ok, so it's like this:

First mic, 2 sticks distance or more directly above the snare, pointing straight down at the dead center.

2nd mic right over the drummer's right shoulder, same EXACT distance from the snare, pointing directly at snare center.

Then try and adjust slightly so that both mics are equidistant from the kik impact point as well.

This is what I'm talking about.

[IMG]******//heinzmuzik.com/pics/dr01.jpg[/IMG]

[brownmouse]

ahhh.. gotcha.... thanks!!!!!
i'll be trying it this weekend.
thanks again!
joshua

[Jules]

"Fletcher tip"

Monitor it with all mic's panned centre in mono untill the phase and overall sound it balanced - THEN pan it out to see how it works in stereo.

[brownmouse]

will do, thanks jules!
joshua

Originally posted by Jules
"Fletcher tip"

Monitor it with all mic's panned centre in mono untill the phase and overall sound it balanced - THEN pan it out to see how it works in stereo.

[lowswing]

i never tried this but the picture rais some question.
how do you get cymbals details in this set-up?
mics are omni?

[heinz]

the microphones are small condensors, C42's

With balanced drumming I can get slamming drums, with nice crisp detailed image on the cymbals. No hat mic needed, only thing really missing from O/H is kik.

[heinz]

Originally posted by Jules
"Fletcher tip"

sweet!

[Xestenz]

As to Jules' tip, I found that Recorderman's technique works best when, with the drummer playing, you monitor through headphones in mono while positioning the second mic (the one at 45 degrees.) When the kick and snare become focused and punchy in the center of the soundfield in mono, it almost universally sounds good when panned in stereo...

And, even with regular cardiods, the cymbals ususally come out nice and balanced with the drums. If your not getting enough cymbals, the whole set up can be raised a few inches, or you can go to XY or coincident.

David

[bassmac]

heinz- that pic is actually from Glyn John's 3 mic set-up - I figured it was in the ballpark.

[heinz]

just havin fun man I am by no means the be-all end-all of this stuff, far from it in fact. Heck I'm waiting for Recorderman to stop by and tell me I got it all wrong.

[oortnyc]

are you listening for phase between the 2 overheads or betweet the overheads and kick mic?

[henryrobinett]

I had a great engineer (Stephen Jarvis) record me once using Detrik DeGeer!!! mics. He was using the Glyn Johns techniques described above in the diagram. He learned it from Johns himself. Jarvis was head engineer at Wally Heiders years ago. The difference with Jarvis' set up was that one of the mics was slightly pointing up to the drummers right side of the floor tom. He did the mono/phase check too. I wish I were hipper to what he was doing when he was doing it. The best drum sound I've ever been a part of. With just a little kick you had the best drum sound. Of course we mic'ed everything just in case ,but DANG!

[Jules]

Some good 'finer points' tip sharing here...

Great!

[djui5]

Originally posted by oortnyc
are you listening for phase between the 2 overheads or betweet the overheads and kick mic?

Both, also add the snare to the list.

The reason this set-up works so well is it ensures phase coheriency between the snare, kick, and OH's.

[Xestenz]

Originally posted by djui5
Both, also add the snare to the list.

If the distance from each overhead to both the center of the snare and the point of beater impact on the bass drum are the same, then you are almost assured of phase coherency. If the kick or snare don't sound right when mixed in, lift the whole overhead setup by a few inches.

Here is a photo of a recent quick session I did for a friend's video game production. I carefully measured the distance from each overhead (Octava MC012's) to the snare and kick. (Great sounding Noble & Cooley kit!)

-- David

[bassmac]

FWIW... I use three mic's on my drums, but I couldn't get the width I like from the above mentioned three mic set-up's.

I instead use an equal spaced pair of OH's (slightly behind the kit makes my cymbals smoother), and a FOK mic (Omni mode) about 4' out, and raised up about 2'.

The FOK mic gets a lot of bottom snare, and when blended with the top head from the OH's, it sounds like a real snare in a room - something I could never get from close mic's.

The OH's panned at 100% makes it wide, and the FOK mic reinforces the K & S in the center.

Just my 2¢

[DirkB]

I normally go for a spaced pair where I make sure I have the snare centered. I position them such, that the toms fit nicely in the stereo image, usually this means one mic (the hi-hat side) a little in front of the kit and the floortom-side mic a little behind the kit. Works great, lots of spread. If I want the drums wide, I pan the overheads dead L + R, but most of the times I pan them inwards a little to get more focus down the centre.

Greetings,
Dirk

[dhughes]

Bump.

THis is one of the most informative threads I've read in a long time. Thanks. More?

[Xestenz]

Originally posted by bassmac

I instead use an equal spaced pair of OH's (slightly behind the kit makes my cymbals smoother), and a FOK mic (Omni mode) about 4' out, and raised up about 2'.

I sometimes us a FOK mic (usually a SD U195) in lieu of a close kick mic, with both Recorderman's setup or spaced pair. I do this when otherwise the sound is perhaps too 'pinched'.

Sometimes I'll do both close and FOK, and run the FOK through my (sometimes spurned here) UA 6176, with the 1176 set to "all button" mode. Blend this nicely-distorted, BIG signal with the stock drum sound to taste.

Must be more aware of phase issues when doing this (usually as determined by the distance of the FOK mic to the kick).

-- David

[Jack Ruston]

I tried recorderman's setup today. It worked really well. I used 414s for the OH and used lenths of cotton to get them exactly placed relative to both snare and kick...It takes a little time actually...worth pointing this out to the drummer so that he takes extra care not to knock them at all when he's getting behind the kit. Apart from that it was 57's on the snare, a d112 and tlm103 in and out of the kick, and some random dynamics that I had on the toms. The definition was great. Certainly more coherant than my usual spaced pair. Not as wide, but it's a natural souding setup.

I'm not the most experienced engineer with drums, and this is not a technique I would have been very likely to come across anywhere else. The producer was really impressed today as he'd not seen it before either. I have learned a lot from this thread. Thanks everyone.

Jack

[dhughes]

Jack,

Did you feel that you needed the tom mics with that set up? I'd really love to get away from using them.

[Jack Ruston]

Well that remains to be seen. The toms sound good just in the overheads, but I wonder whether they'll need a bit more help once they're cutting through the rest of the track.

[bassmac]

If I ever need the tomÕs to cut through a little more, I just cut & paste the fills or hitÕs to another track and blend it in - or use volume automation.

The thing I love about minimal micÕd drums is that the levels are already balanced - like the way the kit really sounds in the room. Trying to recreate a balanced sounding kit from close micÕs is a PITA IMO.

I have been using the recorderman technique for a while now with good results.
One thing I do for spacing to start is take a piece of string and tape it to the center of the snare and the other end to the spot where the beater meets the kick head. Then I hold it up in the middle.
This kinda makes an upside down "V".
At this point I position the mic over the snare area and tie a knot in the string where it hits the center of the capsule screen with both sides being tight.
Then pinching the knot you will see that the upside down "V" will create plane that is always the same distance from both points.

This is cool in that you can visually see the straight line arch above the kit. It really allows you to try many mic placements that all are equi-distant from the 2 sources. You can use this to adjust the width of the kit to some degree.

All that being said, I do find this doesn't work as well going to the snr side very far as your string will hang up on the top of the kik rim. And this is best done withuot cymbals on the kit.

I play a small (tasteful ) kit so this is not difficult. I have never tried it on a Gonzo 80's Rock rig.


The reason I started doing this is the 2 drumstick method was not giving me the hieght I wanted. I am not able to use room mics as my room SUX! So, I have to get space with OHs.


If I am on crack somebody who knows tell me.


Jules,
Thanks for dropping the Fletcher tip. I always forget about the greatest studio tool post stereo.......mono.


GREAT THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!
And the pics are great!


D

[rlnyc]

i use that technique a lot, and it is nothing like the photograph that got posted. it is more like the drawing. one mic is above the snare and pointed down at it, but the other is NOT UP in the air or pointed down. it is way low beside the floor tom tom, and points sideways, at the snare. it peeks out at the snare from around a foot to the side of the floor tom and about 8 inches above the head of the floor tom. it is BELOW the cymbals in height.

i hope nobody else actually believes that will work, cause i would rather it be a secret. but you get a great stereo picture and very good balance from it. THAT's the glyn john's 3 mic technique. THAT's why it is special. it is NOT 2 overheads. it is one overhead and one "sidehead". the story is that it happened BY ACCIDENT, while setting overheads up one slid down, but before they could fix it gynn heard it and told them to leave it.

don't try it. it won't work. looks weird. sounds "bad." continue or go back to using 2 regular overheads, like everybody else. leave the unusual techniques that don't work to us weirdos.

best regards,
rlnyc

[oortnyc]

If it is to the side of the floor tom then it would be much more than 2 drum sticks in length away. Do you still have the two mics equidistant from the kick and snare?
Are you getting too much floor tom in the side mic?

[Midlandmorgan]

Don't worry, rlnyc...I won't try that technique in today's session (jump blues band...) - and I won't try it tomorrow with a jazz session, either..

Nudge-nudge-wink-wink tutt no, sir...not me. I won't try this technique...

Since I'm not going to try it (suppressed snickering) tell me: do you activate the mic/pre's low end roll off to avoid too much floor tom?

Ken

[henryrobinett]

rinyc - That's exactly the method Stephen Jarvis used in the session I described on page 1 with Ditrk De Geers. NOT with the second tom mic above, but below the cymbals pointing up.