Dynaudio BM15A / Air15A

[C.Lambrechts]

Anyone put these Dynaudio speakers next to each other yet ? I have a 5.1 BM15A setup and might be lookin into replacing it by an AIR15 setup. I'm looking into an interesting offer. Of course I'll listen to them myself. Thought I'd get some prelimenary thoughts from the sluts.

[cdog]

Chris,

Yes I tried out most of the BM and AIR series when I was looking at monitors. There's really no comparison, the BM series is sweeter sounding for both the 6's and the 15's. Having the D/A in the monitor is a great idea, it just has to be properly implemented and my understanding is they cut costs elsewhere to do this at a certain price point.

You can pick and choose your D/A with the BM series and trust me the AIR series DAC is no DAC1.

With a 5.1 system I can see how they would be very appealing though from a features standpoint...

[luap]

what about the amplifiers in the bm6a or 15a what are they like?

[Yannick]

As you are located in Belgium I would advise to check these out :

Link K50
www.link-audio.be

Passive, they adore Bryston amplification, and I'm quite sure (even with some very good 6 ch DACs) won't be more expensive. And because you are able to choose good monitors, good amplification AND good DACs there is no way the AIR15 system will come near.

Of course this is just my biased humble opinion ...

I'm just ordering my surround setup next week

[barefoot]

Originally posted by cdog
There's really no comparison, the BM series is sweeter sounding for both the 6's and the 15's. Having the D/A in the monitor is a great idea, it just has to be properly implemented and my understanding is they cut costs elsewhere to do this at a certain price point.

You can pick and choose your D/A with the BM series and trust me the AIR series DAC is no DAC1.

Yeah, I was really excited when I first learned about the Air series (I'm in the process of developing a DSP system for my speakers, because it offers a lot of great possibilities!). But I was very disappointed when I heard the Airs. It's like Dynaudio completely forgot how to build a set of speakers. Or probably more precisely, some TC coders stepped in with the brilliant idea that they could design a set of speakers.

I don't think the issue with the Airs is the converters. I think it's everything else. First of all, the build quality has clearly gone down. Most importantly, however, is the processing. It's just not right. One of the dangers of DSP is that it can actually be TOO powerful. And if you're not looking at the big picture you can make serious errors. For example, using high order digital filters it's rather easy to generate a ruler flat frequency response; and we're talking +/- fractions of a dB. But what a naive designer might not realize is that this flat frequency response must be paid for in the time domain. In other words, flattening out the response to the nth degree can reap havoc with the impulse response. It sounds to me that this may be one of the areas where they went wrong with Airs.

DSP has some fantastic potential for speaker designs, but it clearly hasn't been harnessed.... YET.

Thomas

[Yannick]

Originally posted by barefoot
In other words, flattening out the response to the nth degree can reap havoc with the impulse response. Thomas

Impulse response, that's exactly the reason I upgraded from my Dynaudio LS5 speakers.
They just have been downgraded to our C system ...

[C.Lambrechts]

hmmmmm ... thanks for the comments so far ... keep em coming. Interesting to say the least.

[duende]

I prefer the BM6a's over the BM15a's. With that said, I imdediately did not like the air series. Very phoney processed sounding high frequencies. I figured it had to do with TC Electronics distributing them and wanting a higher profit margin.

bummed me out really, as I had alot of respect for dynaudio. Now, I'm looking in the PMC's. And have to say I'm very very impressed.

[barefoot]

Originally posted by duende
I prefer the BM6a's over the BM15a's.

I agree. In fact, I personally think 6.5" drivers are the absolute maximum size for high performance midrange in any speaker system. Given current technology 8" drivers, let alone 10" drivers, sacrifice too much in the way of midrange distortion and dispersion. Many people try to ascribe the lack of midrange clarity, in 8" speakers versus smaller speakers, to psychological "masking" due to the extra bass. Not true. The midrange performance is just worse. And a 10" 2-way system is simply WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. This arrangement may have been pretty good for the late 1970's, but we've come a long way since then.

Thomas

[cdog]

So Thomas where are the Mini-Mini-Mains???

[barefoot]

Originally posted by cdog
So Thomas where are the Mini-Mini-Mains???

Actually, they're on their way. But, besides the cabinetmaker that I contract out to, I'm just a one-man operation. So new developments take time.

Business is picking up, though. So, you know, money greases the wheels!

Thomas

[piglet]

Originally Posted by barefoot

I agree. In fact, I personally think 6.5" drivers are the absolute maximum size for high performance midrange in any speaker system. Given current technology 8" drivers, let alone 10" drivers, sacrifice too much in the way of midrange distortion and dispersion. Many people try to ascribe the lack of midrange clarity, in 8" speakers versus smaller speakers, to psychological "masking" due to the extra bass. Not true. The midrange performance is just worse. And a 10" 2-way system is simply WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. This arrangement may have been pretty good for the late 1970's, but we've come a long way since then.

Thomas

Why is a 10 inch two way "wrong"? What credentials do you have to make such a statement?

[barefoot]

Originally Posted by piglet

Why is a 10 inch two way "wrong"? What credentials do you have to make such a statement?

No credentials whatsoever. Just my opinion.

Although, being 8 years older and hopefully a little wiser, I would probably rephrase that statement to something more diplomatic. Let’s say... given the technology at hand, I personally would not design a 2-way speaker using a 10” driver. I don’t see a path where I could be happy with the results.

Cheers,
Thomas

[piglet]

Originally Posted by barefoot

No credentials whatsoever. Just my opinion.

Although, being 8 years older and hopefully a little wiser, I would probably rephrase that statement to something more diplomatic. Let’s say... given the technology at hand, I personally would not design a 2-way speaker using a 10” driver. I don’t see a path where I could be happy with the results.

Cheers,
Thomas

What is wrong with 2 10" monitors? This is the bare minimum needed to accurately track notes below 40hz.

[Kyle_PL]

Originally Posted by piglet

What is wrong with 2 10" monitors? This is the bare minimum needed to accurately track notes below 40hz.

They tell You above: midrange problems. Do You want 10" bass? ... go to 3-way (coax design to nearfield is the best ... like in Geithain's)

[Tungsten]

Funny, i've always thought of the 10" dual-concentric Tannoys as near-perfection...

[piglet]

Originally Posted by Tungsten

Funny, i've always thought of the 10" dual-concentric Tannoys as near-perfection...

Which model?

Ya, the guy above doesn't know what he's talking about.

[reddirt]

"Ya, the guy above doesn't know what he's talking about."

And you, sir, don't know who you are talking about. (unless I missed the wry smile when you wrote it)
Cheers, Ross

[jimmymio]

Originally Posted by piglet

What is wrong with 2 10" monitors? This is the bare minimum needed to accurately track notes below 40hz.

When i was shopping for monitors several years ago i remember bob Katz recommending the BM15/15A as smallest he would go in a speaker so as not to sacrifice adequate bass reproduction. FWIW i went with the passive BM15 and a Bryston amp.

[Kyle_PL]

BM15A goes to 40Hz -3dB (info from Dynaudio specs.) ... Dynaudio BM6A MK2 or Dynaudio AIR6 can do the same (40 Hz -3 dB).

[barefoot]

Originally Posted by piglet

What is wrong with 2 10" monitors? This is the bare minimum needed to accurately track notes below 40hz.

Just to be clear, I was talking about a 2-way monitor, i.e. tweeter + 10" woofer. Not a 2 x 10" monitor.

For me, the problems with a 10" 2-way lay in the upper frequency range of the woofer. A 10” woofer typically starts to become directional around 1000Hz. If you cross the tweeter over in the normal range of 2000Hz to 3000Hz, you get a big off-axis dip in the response. This yields the familiar "sucked out" midrange quality of many classic large format 2-way speakers (the Large Advent is a great example). If you try to lower the crossover to bring up the mids, you wind up with lots of distortion in the tweeter.

Cone breakup is another downside of using a large woofer in a 2-way. Most 10" cones will start breaking up around 2000Hz. So you really end up with distortion in the midrange no matter what you do. Seems to me the only reasonable course of action is to lower the crossover frequency and use a horn loaded compression driver for the high frequencies. But now you've created a whole new animal. And that’s a species of monitor that also doesn't sit well with my personal conception of a modern world class monitor.

Cheers,
Thomas