Elliott Smith Double Vocals

[theblotted]

i've always wondered about this... how is it that when i listen to Elliott Smith's recordings where he sings double vocals, the vocals never create that strange chorus-y, phasing sound normally associated with doubled vocals?

sure, he sings softly and records on tape... but there must be more to it than that, no? is it in the preamp or compression?

i read that @ new monkey studios (ES's old studio), he had Trident board, API preamp, and bunch of old tube compressors (Fairchild 670, UA 175, etc.) .. other searches here and on the net doesn't reveal much on the track/mix technique tho.

anybody with some info on how to get this type of nice layered vocal sound without the chorus-y (almost digital flange) effect? i tried doing some panning which helped, but there are songs like "Miss Misery" where the vox is sitting in the middle but still doesn't do that..

[zace2005]

AGREED!!!! how did he do it would love to know!!!

[Brad McGowan]

I think the answer is he was simply THAT GOOD.

Another perfectly doubled peformance that will blow your mind is "God Only Knows" by the Beach Boys.

Brad

[thenewyear]

It's just double tracking isn't? Rather than multing he's tracked twice really accurately.

You can stop it getting too phasey by EQing both tracks differently boosting track 2 where you cut track 1 etc.

I don't know the exact record you refer to so if I am wrong and stating the obvious forgive me.

[theblotted]

doesn't have to be particular recordings, but "Say Yes", "Angeles" from Good Will Hunting OST comes to mind.

...so is it really ONLY in the vox performance? there's no other way to achieve this via pre/eq/comp/etc?

[Matt Allison]

2 very different mics + one track placed lower in mix = no problems with chorus-y sounding doubled vox.

[roger]

it's not like it's a magic trick or anything - he actually is a little rough with his double tracks quite often (on purpose most probably).....you shouldn't have any phasing issues as long as you are getting TWO takes and separating em at least a little with your panning.....the only way i could see phasing being a big issue is if you just duplicated a take and dumped it on top of the other??? i have never had phasing issues with double tracking vox - no magic tricks required. interesting article i read the other day about jack white doing his doubled vox: he purposefully does them very different so different accents//words pop out from the L and R every now and then.....maybe a little distracting but suits the white stripes twitchy vibe i reckon....then you have lenny kravitz on the other end of the spectrum who is a double track ****......perfectly doubled vox and no some panning and no phasing issues but no magic tricks either.

just double-take and pan - unless you WANT some phasing: ala jose gonzalez etc.

[tallboy79]

...yeh, I didn't think there was anything special he was doing. I think it's simply more of a case of his vocal tone really works in this way and it's nicely recorded through nice warm gear.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by roger

.....the only way i could see phasing being a big issue is if you just duplicated a take and dumped it on top of the other???

That will just make the track 6dB louder, unless you process them differently with a plugin that adds some samples of delay.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by theblotted

i've always wondered about this... how is it that when i listen to Elliott Smith's recordings where he sings double vocals, the vocals never create that strange chorus-y, phasing sound normally associated with doubled vocals?

I've never heard this guy. Actually Ive never heard of him. So forgive me if he is not a polished singer. From my experience singers who can double without the chorus effect have impeccable timing and near or perfect pitch.

The other possibilty is he is not really doubled at all. They could have used the the DAW comp trick to fake double him in the studio.

About 10 years ago I sat in on a mix (just watched/listened) on which Brad Delp sang. When he was younger he had that going on. Perfect pitch. He was so near perfect he could double his voice and it sounded like one with no chorus effect. I think he had to try to be a liitle loose to make it sound doubled.

[psycho_monkey]

I think generally, the closer and more exact a double is, the MORE likely it is to chorus.

A really loose double won't chorus - and maybe an ultra tight one won't either (esp if it's with a different one). But a pretty tight one (or one that's edited to be so) is more likely to IMO.

[theblotted]

thanks for the replies so far.

allen - if you listen carefully to ES, it's indeed double-tracked, not copy/pasted.

sounds to me like ES's vocal takes are pretty spot on from take to take. and listening carefully, sounds like he's using the same mic's, e.g., "Angeles" just pan it hard L/R, and you just hear mostly 1 vox and the other slightly.

by mono'ing "Angeles", there's a slight chorus/phase thing going, but nothing protruding like any kind of vocal takes recorded here. when ES chorus/phase happens, it sounds thicker instead of becoming thinner and sticking out like a sore thumb.

granted, his vocals are pretty dark and mellow to begin with..

[Empty Planet]

Tracked many of his vocals with a Langevin CR3A mic, at least around the "Either/Or" period. Long discontinued, only a couple thousand made. Great mic. Just picked one up.

Larry Crane did a lot of that work, think he recorded and mixed "Either/Or." Love that drum sound, and IIRC, 57s on overs!!

Pretty interesting work.


Cheers.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by theblotted

thanks for the replies so far.

allen - if you listen carefully to ES, it's indeed double-tracked, not copy/pasted.

Hi,

How do you know with absolute certainty he's not doubled? Just curious

thx

[ricknroll]

Why is allencollins replying when he has never even heard of Elliott Smith?

Roger is right - the double tracked vocals are pretty rough at times, but that quality almost makes them work better. If they were really close, you'd hear more of those chorus/phase-esque sounds. Of course, it does vary from album to album. Listen to the vocals on From a Basement on the Hill and you'll hear the overdubbed vocals are often not that close, but they still work well. There's no magic there - it's just his singing. Unless someone has an Elliott Smith vocal plugin?

Rick

[jomo1234]

Sorry to get off topic, but boy I sure do miss him....his recordings will undoubtedly become the classics of the future. It's nice to see a whole new generation of people discovering his work.

The wonderful Larry Crane of Tape-Op is in the process of archiving all of Elliott's recordings, and hopefully we will be able to hear some undiscovered gems from this incredible artist...RIP Elliott.

[christmasjones]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Hi,

How do you know with absolute certainty he's not doubled? Just curious

thx

If you listen on headphones, multi # of songs you can hear it is def. two different vocal tracks. Usually one vocal is heavily compressed and gives more of the whispery thing. The best example i can think of is no name #6. i <3 that song

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by ricknroll

Why is allencollins replying when he has never even heard of Elliott Smith?

I'm replying cuz of the double track question itself. I'm in the process of designing a new vst/directx vocal doubling plugin. I thought I may learn something

thx

[lord_bunny]

I'm a huge fan of Elliott, The Beatles, David Gilmour, The Beach Boys... suffice to say I loved well done double-tracked lead vocals.

Before he started his solo career in earnest he was in a band that had plenty of recording experience, but his early solo stuff was very DIY though eventually he began producing lush big records with Tom Rothrock, Rob Schnap and at the end with Jon Brion. He always did a lot of the double-tracking thing. I don't think it's an EQ thing or panning, compression etc. You can treat both vocals identically and achieve what he did (provided you can sing the lines as acurately as he did).

I've only had a weird phase thing happen once, where a singer sang something so close it got weird, but even then it wasn't a problem. I also do a large amount of double tracking, and am fairly consistent (you get good at it when it's a regular part of your routine).

Percentage is important, but Elliott sounded like it was nearly 100% of both signals, though many people duck one take slightly (3-6db) under the other to thicken it.

As a side-note: tuning should be close, but your going to benifit from tuning variance, thats what creates the cool chorus effect... which is maybe what you percieve as the phase effect, but listen to Dark Side of the Moon or as someone else suggested The Beach Boys Pet Sounds or Brian Wilson's Smile...

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Hi,

How do you know with absolute certainty he's not doubled? Just curious

thx

give it a listen. the phrasing and inflections are different enough to tell. the difference in timing of S's are another give-away.

Originally Posted by Empty Planet

Tracked many of his vocals with a Langevin CR3A mic, at least around the "Either/Or" period. Long discontinued, only a couple thousand made. Great mic. Just picked one up.

Larry Crane did a lot of that work, think he recorded and mixed "Either/Or." Love that drum sound, and IIRC, 57s on overs!!

Pretty interesting work.


Cheers.

[Marty J]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Hi,

How do you know with absolute certainty he's not doubled? Just curious

thx

Here you go AC:

YouTube - Elliott Smith Waltz #2 (XO)

That song alternates between single and double tracked lines, so you can get a feel for what people are talking about. You can clearly hear it's two very slightly different vocal takes.

I'm guessing he was just good at double-tracking. On the second part he probably went easy on the plosives and fricatives. Those things can really stack up. And perhaps the second vocal is compressed a bit more so it supports the lead without getting in the way. His harmonies are also always very tight, so I'm guessing he was good at pitching his vocals.

[allencollins]

Good tune good vox. Sounds like a song off the white album or something

Overall it does sound doubled with two unique tracks. But there really is only a couple spots you could say for sure. It may be a DAW trick you can fake double tracks that convincing with a little time.

He may have just pitch corrected 2 tracks. Although there are a couple places he goes flat. Maybe it was intentional

To tell you the truth when I listen real close I do hear a little chorusy thing going on. That version is mono and the vocals are kinda low in the mix so it's hard to tell.

I'm curious are trying to perfectly double some vocals?

thx

[scrubs]

I think another unique thing about ES to keep in mind is that he sang with virtually no vibrato. Therefore, there was less wavering in the pitch of the vocal takes that could lead to that "phasey" sound. P

[darkwater]

Every singer is different, but when I double my own vocals, I always mute the track I'm doubling. If I learn the exact phrasing and pitch, why would I want to hear it simultaneously? That only makes for confusion when trying to nail the pitch. Is it me, or memorex? I can't tell if I'm hearing the first one. Doing it this way, it's WAY easier for me to get perfect doubles.

That being said, I can only guess this is what Elliot did. I know the engineer at Satellite Park. I think he did his last record there, so I'll ask about it.

[imnickb]

i think its just the way his voice sounds that makes the doubles sound so good. his doubling isnt that on, but i think thats kind of the idea right? sometimes you can hear some major differences in pitch and timing between the doubles. and i think for the most part one vocal is more prominent than the other.

either or is a great album.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by imnickb

either or is a great album.

I still need to get this CD, it's #1 on my list.

[imnickb]

i dont mean to hijack anybodys topic or anything but since were talking about doubles, what do you think is going on here? not elliot smith related but i think its just as interesting as far as the uniqueness of the vocal sound goes...

YouTube - AZURE RAY : Sleep

[SK1]

to the op .....

God knows how elliot smith pulled it off .......... however, we've noticed here that perfectly doubled vocals have a way of phasing out ...... so we'll drag tracks to line em up phase wise or use an ibp to tune the phase.

But some phasing is part of the doubled sound anyways right ???

[MyNameIsChris]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Overall it does sound doubled with two unique tracks. But there really is only a couple spots you could say for sure. It may be a DAW trick you can fake double tracks that convincing with a little time.

If you listen to his records it's very obvious that they are unique tracks. It's also quite apparent that his skill in doubling (and the quality of the studios he worked in) grew with each album. Also, with 75% of his songs there are far more than simply two tracks of the main melody, he regularly layered countless harmonies as well. Also, it's been dealt with enough in interviews and from several people who worked with him on these boards, and around LA, that it's not a DAW trick, and in general he greatly favored tape and old gear. It's not specifically helpful, but I also remember a dual interview between him and Ray Davies in Filter magazine from years and years back, where Davies asks him specifically about all the multi tracked vocals he does, and Smith explains that he mainly does it because he doesn't like the sound of his voice natural on it's own.

[bdmctear]

Head on over to the Tape Op Board and ask Larry. If I remember correctly, Larry had an Allen and Heath Saber for the early recordings he did, unless that was BEFORE he got the A and H. After Miss Misery, the song for which he received an Oscar Nomination, Elliot went in on the business with Larry. He bought a Quad 8 Console, but it was too big to fit into the space they had, so I think they broke it down into parts.

When I was in college Elliot slept on my floor while on one of his first tours. He was very nice. Very shy, but very nice.

I never thought he was anything but immensely talented.