Going to school for Sound Engineering

[treefingers]

Hey guys,

First post here, and i must say that Gearslutz is a truly unique forum.

I'm not really sure if this is the right sub-forum to post this in, so mods please move this if theres a more appropriate section.

Back to my question now -

I'm looking to go to school for Sound Engineering next fall. I was wondering if any Sound Engineers could give me some feedback/advice in regards to their career and the experiences that come with it , as it would be greatly appreciated.

Tell me about how you ended up in your career?

Did you go to school for it?

Describe an average working day ?

Do you like it ?

I'm strongly considering going to school for this next fall. The school is located in Toronto, Ontario. I know its very competitive to get accepted into it, as they only take 70 people per year. Minimum requirements are a high school diploma , but i know i'll need much more than that.

I haven't actually been in the studio environment before, but have alot of experience with making my own mixes in Sonar and Protools. I also have a general understanding of equipment and methods used when recording.

If i want to build up my resume with having any hope of getting into a school like this, what kind of jobs/opportunity's should i be looking for ?

Once again, i realize this is the High end gear forum, not the noob recording section. From browsing this forum, it seems most of the knowledgeable users are here. Sorry if i offended anyone by posting this.

[lowfreq33]

There are numerous threads on this subject, try doing a search. What you'll find is that everyone who went to school will have mixed results, everyone who didn't will crap all over the idea, and a few people will tell you to take the money you'd spend on tuition and go buy a bunch of gear instead.

[treefingers]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

There are numerous threads on this subject, try doing a search. What you'll find is that everyone who went to school will have mixed results, everyone who didn't will crap all over the idea, and a few people will tell you to take the money you'd spend on tuition and go buy a bunch of gear instead.

Thanks for your input lowfreq. Tuition is about 15k , which could also be a great beginner studio. Although this idea could work, I'd rather learn how to use the gear before i buy it.

[lowfreq33]

I don't really want to make a recommendation, because everyone's experience and needs are different. I will tell you that you're trying to enter a pretty saturated field, not that you couldn't be successful, just saying it's a tough life.

[PoorGlory]

Wouldn't it make more sense to go to school for electronics so you can have a valuable skill that most of todays audio "engineers" don't have whatsoever, and learn recording on the side or with an internship? If you walk into a studio to interview for an internship and tell them you're going to school for electronics or electronic design, electrical engineering, etc, you will immediately be leaps and bounds over the next kid who went to school to learn Pro Tools. A trip to Guitar Center, $300 or so, and a couple weeks in front of the computer will give a working knowledge of Pro Tools (or whatever DAW you want) and your own interface to screw around with at home. But it sounds like you already know how to run a DAW.

Not to mention a background in electronics opens up a shitload more doors than a degree in recording, which is really worthless when you think about it. A degree in recording now qualifies you for jobs that simply don't exist.

If I am being harsh and negative, it's because I've seen people go to recording schools and end up being hairdressers, call center operators, etc. Most of the posts here on Gearslutz that ask about recording schools (much like yours) seem naive and swayed by recording school propaganda. Please understand the reality of the business (a dying business, at that) and save yourself from going into unnecessary debt like people I know have done.

Get a real degree in something useful that can help you pursue your ideal career. That is the best advice I can give.

[gainstages]

great comments so far. everyone is different. My personal education was a little of both worlds. I spent a little money on some very low end equipment and worked until I had a handle on the most basic concepts, then, instead of going to school, I got a part time internship at a studio. Might I add that I PAID for this, and I did get my moneys worth, as I received many hours in the studio one on one with a great engineer learning signal flow on the mixer, learning the patchbay, working with mic placement, learning how to use a razor blade to edit pancakes, etc.
I did this over the summer, just a day here and a day there. by the end of the summer i was running recording sessions, doing mixes, etc.

When i was done, I invested some money into better equipment, made some improvements to my room, and opened a project studio.

That was the right path for me - a lot cheaper than a formal education, and i learned to be creative because i played around and taught myself somethings, but i also had a mentor who was there to guide me, give me some technical info etc.

What works for you isn't for me to say. I will say that I think certain schools teach too technically and their graduates that i've met all have the same trait in that they seem to think for example that every vocal track has to have a boost here or a cut there before they even listen to it - they kind of work on autopilot like they've memorized a recipe or something, rather than listening to the music and really working each track based on what that specific track needs. Here's my disclaimer - this isn't to say that going to school for it is bad - if you do go to school, just remember that everything you learn is really a GUIDELINE and not a law set in stone - in the real world, there are few rules that can't be broken

[ryanojohn]

I am in school for 'sound arts,' luckily the program is quite comprehensive and we had a great maintenance class... As a result I've done two studio installs, installing both a new SSL AWS, and a '77 Custom Neve, a venue sound system install, and am currently a second engineer in a studio.

An education can certainly help, but nothing can help your education more than yourself. If you put a lot into any school, then you can get a lot out of it.

That's certainly not to say that you HAVE to go to school for it, but if it makes it easier for you to understand it all, then do it.

[joelpatterson]

I would first advise you: get in touch with your inner madman racing down a costal California highway at midnight on a motorcycle (@ 100 miles an hour with the lights off.)

Another way to say this is: what would you do if there was no one to stop or dissuade you or say it wouldn't work? What is it that you are really passionate about and daydream about?

If it's getting into an exclusive school environment and networking the hell out of everyone you meet and building that into working in the upper echelons of whatever's left of a "dying" industry that's only getting bigger all the time, do that.

If it's diving deep into hands-on recording and fashioning breath-takingly alive CDs or MP3s that will make people stop dead in their tracks, do that.

Could be that there's something else again you're not telling us or don't even realize yourself. Come on, it's okay, we're all friends here....

[Clayphish]

I think the best advice I can give you is to focus on networking first and recording second. So, if you go to recording school, go in expecting to befriend every single person there (faculty, students, visiting professionals, etc.) . That is how you make it in the industry. Obviously, you want to learn to record, but that will come in time, because as long as you show the motivation and have the people on your side, you will be taken care of. Also goto a school where the industry is its strongest, so you don't have to fight a battle after school.

If you decide to buy gear, you're still going to need to find the people to record. So how are you going to do that?

just my 2 cents from being in the thick of it.

[Ibvee]

Pick your school wisely, make sure at least 1 of the teachers is a REAL industry professional, somebody who has or had a full-time job recording and mixing professional (full-time) musicians, somebody who can show you how good commercial records are being made.
Otherwise there's a big chance that you can learn more in 2 weeks when looking over the shoulder of a very good engineer, than after 2 years in recording school.

[musicmind11]

I went to recording school in 04.. It was a great experience!!! but... The biggest thing they taught was common sense.. I mean that in the fact that they made me realise that you can learn all the stuff you need to know by reading good books, applying yourself by asking questions and then finding the answers, and a little hands on is great too! now.. My suggestion depends on how you will pay for school. If you are getting it financed and will have very small monthly payments starting say 6 months after school ends, then go the school route. If you have somehow saved a nice sum of cash and are planning to pay that way then.. use that cash to A. buy some good books (maybe start another thread here for some suggestions) B. BUY as much equipment as you can but only after two or 3 months of 12 hr a day studying. A good way to do this is to look at the retailer sites such as vintageking or even the lower sites like sweetwater and everytime you dont know what something is find out by doing a google or looking it up here on a GS thread. Make sure you find out what it is, does , where it ranks on fidelity, how can it be used, how can that apply to what you want to do, what class of equipment are you going to need and does it fit there? Do this over and over and over until you have a general understanding of the different gear elements that go into a studio. After you have a general understanding you can then spend a couple weeks really planning what you should buy to get started. Just keep learning man thats the best advice someone can give you whatever road you choose to take and good luck!! =)

-Just remember that at school they teach you out of the same books that you can buy, and learn from on your own, for just the price of the book. You are paying them to go over it with you. The nice thing about the schools are that they may give you the opportunity to work in some ssl rooms etc, but you can intern at ssl studios anyways once you learn a few things, and then you wouldnt have to pay to be in the same kind of rooms. just food for thought.

[Tibbon]

Get an internship. It will be cheaper.

Or a real degree that carries any weight. Maybe an EE.

[Energie]

I got a general studies degree trying to find out what i wanted, though I couldn't shake my love for music, so I also got a degree for audio. I really loved my time and education, and even though I have been messing around with audio since I was a wee lad, It really helped excell my understanding of audio and audio gear in a short time. Books can do alot, but beign around the gear and the right people is awesome. I got a job right out of school, low pay but it was a paid engineering job where I just helped out a bit, 5 months later they built me my own rooom, from there, got into full time post prod making a living, and then finally I am out on my own as a freelance composer and sound crafter. I felt I was really lucky to get into a studio that was on the verge of expanding, and really it was a smaller production town and my degree helped me get into the door. But, even with the education there is TONS any school or book can't teach you, so it will take time to develop the skills to really be successful.

I see the same school I went to many years ago almost trippling their tuition since i was there, and I would not pay that much anymore. I highly do suggest thinking long and hard as to where you invest your education. Audio is a tricky feild to get into a comfy position, and many have tried only to not succeed as planned, could be partly lack of skill, and partly not having been givin the right opportunity. Times are a bit different now, and quite possibly you may want to go 2 routes, get a good education with something related, or different, and also start collecting and playing with audio gear. a good job will allow you to buy more gear, woot...

[gio.vanni]

An SAE NyC graduate here. I attended staight out of high school. SAE was definitely fun... mostly because I was a HUGE audio geek years before I went so going there and finally getting a run on the big boards was great. Learning from some great teachers and solidifying and reinforcing things was a huge plus. I decided to go the broadcast route out of school and am sitting in a very nice staff position. I don't think my school had much to do with it as I had to move around the country to gain the experience I needed to make it to a major network here in NYC. Honestly, it all depends on what you want to do, how you want to get there and if you have the time and patients to be flexible. Whether that be insane hours, on call or moving to a different place all together to do what you need to do. It's extremely rough in the beginning. Building a resume [experience] is no damn easy task by any means. You need to be ready to take on that challenge. But, if you make it out and land a good gig, it all comes into perspective and you look back and say, it was definitely worth it. I don't mind coming into work every day. Not many can say the same.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by treefingers

Tell me about how you ended up in your career?

A very convoluted path. The path is never straight and leads to the most unexpected situations. Be ready and maybe one of those blind alleys will turn into something.

Originally Posted by treefingers

Did you go to school for it?

No. And no one has ever asked me if I did. Career wise, school was a waste. My parents liked that I went and I'm glad I have a 4 year degree in music composition, but it didn't help me with what I do other than teach me dicipline. Realistically, I could have learned more taking private lessons (or interning) and playing in a top 40 band.

Originally Posted by treefingers

Describe an average working day ?

Anything and everything. Writing. Not working. Editing. Not working. Arranging/Orchestrating. Not working. Mixing. Not working. Playing Keyboards. Not working. Making MP3's for clients websites. Not working. Soldering. Not working. Dialog clean-up. Not working. Music Editing. Not working. Cruising Gearslutz (not working). Not working. Networking. Not working. Invoicing clients and cleaning up the studio. Not working.

Get the idea? You need to be able to do everything and anything to make a living at this gig. And even if you can do all these things, you will be one of the extremely gifted few if you can stay busy and make a subsistance living at it. (I am blessed, and I do make a living - although it is substantially down from 5 years ago, and headed south....) Think seriously. Music / Audio is becoming a consumer avocation more than a profession. Those golden days are gone. I know several gold/platinum/grammy winning engineers who scramble for any gig they can get right now in LA.

Originally Posted by treefingers

Do you like it ?

Love / Hate. I love music. It is my passion. There is not enough of it in this stupid business. I miss the old days of everyone (studio cats - not a band) converging on the studio for a "session". That was bliss. A pure adrenalin filled rush!!! Back in the days when 4-10 session players and engineers - or more - of us would get to the studio and start working and making music. Arranger arrives with the parts, players are tuning up, engineers are tweaking mic positions, producer is talking on the phone . BAM!!! Roll tape. Make music. Everyone into the CRM for playback! Bass player fixes a note. On to the next session. Those days are gone as far as I can tell.

If I could do it all over, it would be a tough call. Financial security has a lot more meaning when you start staring down your middle age years with a family, wife and mortgage. If I was starting now there would be no question. I would go to a 4 year university and study something like computers or the like which could finance my musical dreams.

When you LIVE you dreams, your dreams become a job. And like any other job, it can become drudgery. Think long and hard and do more research before commiting. Think more about your long term goals in life - (like family? early retirement? where you want to live? whether you like working nights/days/etc? If you mind being on the road for months at a time? etc., etc.) - than what you specifically want to study next year. Then make your decision and go for it with all you can muster.

Good luck. I'm glad I'm not in your shoes!!! thumbsup

bp

[Fletcher]

Well... I'm from the school where you have to suffer if you wanna sing the blues. Mercenary is about to have an opening for a bitch/piss boy... the pay sucks, the hours are worse... but the education is top flight.

You start out in the warehouse learning how to do testing, making coffee, cleaning the occasional toilet, stocking the fridge [have a car and be able to buy beer!!], sweeping the floor and helping Don pack boxes. From there you get to sit in on sessions when there is room in the control room.

Once the current assistant graduates [which he should have done a few months ago but still isn't ready to be turned out into the world] you get to move into the control room on a closer to full time basis.

You're on all of my sessions, you'll learn how to hit patches, take notes, pay attention to detail... and when there is a logical break in the action you get to ask me what I was thinking when I did ____ or why I did ____ or why I abandon ____ after messing with it for ___ hours.

From there you'll learn how to do overdub sessions I don't feel like doing.

From there you'll learn how to hustle up your own gigs and/or get prepared for me to make some phone calls and get you a real gig at a real studio where you'll be able to start at the bottom again [but advance quickly because you will have been well trained] and network in a real city with real clients.

The $15k you have saved up for school should be of great assistance to you being able to pay your living expenses as we pay like shit [minimum wage... which ain't a living wage by any stretch of the imagination in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts].

If you're interested... send a resume and cover letter to Jay@mercenary.com If he likes what he reads then he'll schedule you to come in for an interview. If you get past him then you get to catch a ration from some of those who went before you. If you get past them then we sit down and have a couple beers and I figure out if I'll be able to stand being around you in a small room for way too many hours a week... and then, if all goes well... you get hired.

Less than 40% survive and "graduate"... but most of the "graduates" have more gold/platinum plaques on the wall than I do, and more importantly, earn more than I do. Those that don't graduate learn that this really isn't their dream and that they need to find some other vocation.

Either way if you get in it's a damn good "life experience" that will either be excellent training for a career in music or give you serious motivation to go to a real school and actually make something of your life [one "non-graduate" is a lawyer now... also earning way more than I do... has music as a hobby, two lovely children and a trophy wife whose looks will fade around the same time he finds the mistress he deserves].

Ain't life grand [or a bitch... depends on perspective].

Peace.

[vernier]

No doubt that Mercenary opening is an invaluable opportunity for some lucky future producer.

[LabGroup20]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I would first advise you: get in touch with your inner madman racing down a costal California highway at midnight on a motorcycle (@ 100 miles an hour with the lights off.)

Another way to say this is: what would you do if there was no one to stop or dissuade you or say it wouldn't work? What is it that you are really passionate about and daydream about?

Great post. Never thought of my life as 100 mph w/ the lights off driveing the costal highway. Maybe I should try it - not the driving part....

Excellent food for thought from everyone. Especially the prevailing thought that it's a rough career path and you have to be completely committed. School or not, the more you pour into it, the further you'll get and more successful you'll be. You need to be on fire for your passion.

I went to a school for recording because that's where my passion was. I really applied myself, did pretty well and had a good headstart down the intern/assist/freelance/do-whatever-it-takes path. Then I realized I also had a passion for getting married and having kids too.

I left the recording path to pursue one in television. That's not always the most lucrative way to go, but it can pay decently and can have more stability if you get with a major network like I did. Of course, freelance for TV can be crazy like freelance for music....

In the end, you're asking the right questions and all the advice above is correct. It's hard to make it happen, but the most rewarding things in life are the ones that are the hardest to get. Go get it.

[Sounds.is]

If he lives in Canada, he´s probably SOL for working in the states.

As far as Canadian schools are concerned, Fanshaw is ok (if you decide to go that route), but Trebas isn´t worth 25 cents for a phone call, never mind tuition.

[Deyor]

I think hes looking at Harris, are looking at harris OP I know somebody who went there?

On a seperate note, I would make my decision based on weither you want to move into the field for work, or weither you want to have it as a pasttime that your passionate about, im sure youll make a decision thats good for you

[prismtheory]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

I don't really want to make a recommendation, because everyone's experience and needs are different. I will tell you that you're trying to enter a pretty saturated field, not that you couldn't be successful, just saying it's a tough life.

It is a VERY saturated field, that's true. But lets be realistic here...most people who consider themselves sound engineers are really people with a few grand and a pro tools rig. Just because one can afford to buy the equipment doesn't qualify one to use it. Guitar centers motto a few years ago was"a studio in every home"...and lets be realistic again. Most engineers suck pretty bad at what they do. So is the market saturated.?..YEP. But GOOD engineers who truly understand how to make records are few in comparison to hack ones.

Going into a recording school IMO isn't a waste of money...however. The sound engineering field is pretty freelance mostly...and there are NO jobs waiting for you when you get out. Most of the engineering schools have teachers running classes that have no charting recordings...which makes sense. Those who can do do..and those who can't teach.

It's a big decision. Good luck to you.

[Ironklad Audio]

i wonder if i could talk my wife into moving to MA...

[wirerecording]

Just another vote for living off your school money and being the gofer for a professional studio. Learning gear and a DAW is great, but learning the musical/human side is harder and more important. That being said 3 of the 4 guys working for me went to audio school. So it is really more of a personal commitment than anything else

stuart

[pbell]

Which school are you thinking of going to? I went to one about an hour from Toronto called OIART. I highly recommend checking it out if you haven't already. OIART: Audio/Sound Engineering, Sound/Music Recording, Sound/Audio/Music Production School

As for my career. I graduated a year ago and landed a gig doing commerical work in my hometown. Its a smaller city so getting a gig doing anything audio related is pretty sweet. (A friend of mine once called it a wasteland for work in the audio field) I spend about a year looking for work in general, did the LA thing but soon discovered that getting a work VISA isn't really all that easy to do.

My advice is to stick at it and don't expect a dream job off the hop. I've learnt that you really have to work at it and it takes some time (well a lot of time I guess) to get a good name in the industry.

Just my .02

[Ol' Betsey]

I started taking a class and thought it was rubbish and quit. Focused on recording my bands demos on four-track and began knowing and understanding what I liked and didn't like about a sound. (Still can't put it into words very effectively though. I'm sure that comes with time)

Got an internship (unpaid) at a very big New York studio. First thing the head engineer said was "Your lucky to get in here. Most kids graduate from audio school. Now clean all these patch cables. Oh and if you want to do yourself a favour learn this patch bay and read the SSL Computer manual."

So I did. And in MY downtime (when I wasn't running for pizza and beer) I did Dub-versions of Slayer tracks. :-)

Take care and have fun!

R.

[kats]

OK, I have no idea what I'm talking about...but I've always been practical and things usually work out for me.

If I were to turn the clock back 20 years I would do this. I'd go to university and get a degree in something solidly related to audio - like Electronic Engineering.

While doing that, I would get a simple PT set up and start recording bands on the cheap - and use the university/pt rig for networking and building up your chops.

Now after 4 years, you should have built up a decent clientel/network, be DAW proficient, have your ITB chops reasonably down as a recording/mix engineer, and hold a degree in EE.

I think this way, you'd be a pretty attractive choice for a studio assistant WITH PAY. You also have the "fall back" thing covered with your degree. And who knows, you might even have talent, people skills, and all the other things completely unrelated to audio that you might be able to make a decent leaving in the music biz!

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Clayphish

I think the best advice I can give you is to focus on networking first and recording second. So, if you go to recording school, go in expecting to befriend every single person there (faculty, students, visiting professionals, etc.) . That is how you make it in the industry. .

As respectfully as possible.....A crock of Sheeit! ....maybe if you wanna manage....figure out what you want and go for it...get good at it whatever way possible....kissing ass will only get you so far. Peace.

Nick