Drum Shell Composition?

bluelang · 10th May 2004

I'm in a huge argument with some guys about whether or not what wood a drum shell is made of really makes a difference in the final recording. I say it does not - heads, tuning, size/thickness, audio chain, and the drummer are all audible, but the wood itself doesn't matter. If drum shells were a lot thinner or engineers regularly miced the shells themselves, I can maybe see it. But I really think that it's about the same as worrying about the finish on an amp - you might as well be mixing with your eyes.

Does anyone disagree and have examples of recordings where you can actually hear the shells resonating or tell what kind of drum shells are being used?

(please move this to a more appropriate thread if one exists, but i am really interested in the opinions of the HE folks)

Scinx · 11th May 2004

There is definately a difference between wood shells for drums - just as their is with wood used in guitars. Birch, Maple, Mahogony, etc. shells all sound different. You can get all types of woods, you can get different widths (plys). The reason is that they give different sounds. If the wood shell didnt matter - then manufacturers would be rewarded for using the cheapest wood out there.

RBS · 11th May 2004

In recording rock and pop type music I agree that the Birch vs Maple thing is lost for the most part. Good quality shells, good heads and tuning are far more important.

bluelang · 11th May 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Scinx
There is definately a difference between wood shells for drums - just as their is with wood used in guitars. Birch, Maple, Mahogony, etc. shells all sound different. You can get all types of woods, you can get different widths (plys). The reason is that they give different sounds. If the wood shell didnt matter - then manufacturers would be rewarded for using the cheapest wood out there.

so you have some recordings where you can point out these differences?

Scinx · 11th May 2004

If you are asking what is most important - I wouldnt take the shells as my first choice. It does not appear this is what you are asking. If you are looking for a confirmation that there is no difference between of shell made of particle board vs. maple , I stand by my first post.

I dont have a recording on hand with various shells. So, it must be assumed I have no proof you know? Actually - Ive played various drums and Ive had drums custom made, and yes, there is a difference. Can I pull out some album and say "Ah Ha! That is African Mahogony."? No. But I can hit a maple shell with all else being the same, and a birch shell with all else being the same, and hear a difference.

RBS · 11th May 2004

Quote:

There is definately a difference between wood shells for drums - just as their is with wood used in guitars.

I'm a Guitar player and play strats most of the time. I have several very good guitars some Ash some Alder. There is a deference but they all sound like strats. I think the question was does it really make a difference in a final mix. Now if you take a Mahogany body and Humbucking PU's thats very different sound but not entirely due to the wood.

I did quite a bit of listening before buying a kit for the studio. There is a difference in shell woods. I just don't think it is a big difference in the final mix for most music.

heinz · 11th May 2004

On something super-intimate like small combo jazz where a tom is up-front and large... you can definitely hear the difference in the final recording. But is it the wood as much as the construction?

How much difference between woods would be related to all the properties... hardness, curing, number of plys, how it was joined, what was used to finish/seal it, how the hardware is mounted and how the drum is suspended from the mount. I mean it gets just as silly as trying to pin down this question with a guitar builder... sooo many variables.

But in say a hard rock situation, there's much more traffic to deal with and as a result it's a much smaller factor... naturally this all depends on the music/arrangement.

bluelang · 11th May 2004

exactly.. i'm sayin', it's the construction, it's the size of the toms, and the thickness of the shells.

when i sit in front of my Artstar II kit and whack the tom as hard as i can, i get a low rumble out of the shell (a 12" rack tom) that is probably 20-30 db quiter than the head sound and which dies out in maybe 1/2 second. admittedly, it's a thick-ass drum, but the amount of energy required to vibrate the mass of a tom into audiblity has to be pretty large.

anyways, i was really hoping that someone actually had a recording where you can hear more than the initial attack of the drum, and possibly one where you had the same drummer on 2 different kits and there was a sonic difference that went beyond the heads/sticks.

LTA · 11th May 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelang
I'm in a huge argument with some guys about whether or not what wood a drum shell is made of really makes a difference in the final recording. I say it does not - heads, tuning, size/thickness, audio chain, and the drummer are all audible, but the wood itself doesn't matter. If drum shells were a lot thinner or engineers regularly miced the shells themselves, I can maybe see it. But I really think that it's about the same as worrying about the finish on an amp - you might as well be mixing with your eyes.

If anything, the density and stiffness of the wood affect the frequency of the shell modes. The number of plies would also matter, as it would affect stiffness. Just being general, one 12"x9" tom could be in its sweet spot tuned to about an E4, while another 12x9 of different composition might be in its sweet spot at B3 or G4. These pitches are just for the sake of argument, but the actual relative pitch span is realistic. Snare drums can cover an even wider range of optimal tunings, mostly due to the vast variety of materials used. And if somebody can't tell that one tom sounds higher or lower than another, they probably shouldn't make comments about the type of wood involved.

Also, it would be entirely possible that one 12" tom would share the same optimum tuning as a 10" tom of a different wood composition. While they may put out the same fundamental pitches, there is no way you could convince me these two drums would sound about the same.

Now, in the grand scheme of things, head selection selection, tuning, and the ability of a drummer to make the drums sing is far more influential.

If you really want a recorded example, i can get 3 or 4 snares together, put the same heads on them, and use the same tuning scheme. The difference will be readily apparent. Toms are no different, except there are fewer material choices. And no, i couldn't tell you what a drumset was made out of just by listening. I could tell you which drumset tunes higher or lower though.

Jose Mrochek · 11th May 2004

In my very poor knowledge of this matter, guitars specificaly (acoustic) I'd say the body shape is what matters most. I have both a 1,300$ Takamine with all the cool wood. I ended up recording my album with a 200$ i don't know what brand guitar, which sounds better.(better to me) I would say, the wood does make a difference, but I would definetly not be able to tell in a mix with the other instruments playing over it. And with drums... even worse. No one, maybe designers that have been building drums for decades would definetly tell.. but not an engineer, or producer, or musician. If it sounds good to you, who cares if it's a carton box

Drumsound · 11th May 2004

Even if you can't put on a record and say "Those drums are_______" it still makes a huge difference in the record. A good player will play based on the feedback of the instrument they are playing. The way the thing sounds in the room, how it hits them in the gut will, beyond a shadow of a doubt, affect how they play. If you don't think how the player plays affects the mix, you need to re-evaluate how your making records IMHO.

bluelang · 11th May 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by LTA
If you really want a recorded example, i can get 3 or 4 snares together, put the same heads on them, and use the same tuning scheme. The difference will be readily apparent. Toms are no different, except there are fewer material choices. And no, i couldn't tell you what a drumset was made out of just by listening. I could tell you which drumset tunes higher or lower though.

it would only be relevant if they:

a) are the same dimensions
b) have the same snare
c) have the same number of plies
d) have the same ratio of wood to filler
e) are all tuned to exactly the same pitch, not tension, because the argument is that the wood somehow adds sonics to the drum.

and even then, lugs and bearing edges might make a difference. i'd love to hear it, tho! i'd rather hear toms than snares, personally.

stakeoutstudios · 11th May 2004

The wood certainly does make a difference, but as does the construction, thickness and no. of plies.

A Pearl Export kit will not sound like my TAMA starclassic maple kit. However a drum workshop kit will sound different again to the TAMA, but each will sound good in it's own way. (except the Pearl)

Even if you put identical heads on each different drumkit, and they were the same dimensions, they would still sound different.

Much of the reason they choose certain woods is because it is easier to manipulate certain types of woods to different thicknesses an no. of plys. For example thicker shelled kits will often be birch or even oak. Thinner shelled kits are usually maple or an even more exotic wood.

Suspension mounted toms / snares also make a big difference, especially if you compare them to kits with the toms mounted in the kick. the lack of sympathetic resonance can have quite a big impact on a recording.

10th May 2004	#1
bluelang Gear Head Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 31 Thread Starter	Drum Shell Composition? I'm in a huge argument with some guys about whether or not what wood a drum shell is made of really makes a difference in the final recording. I say it does not - heads, tuning, size/thickness, audio chain, and the drummer are all audible, but the wood itself doesn't matter. If drum shells were a lot thinner or engineers regularly miced the shells themselves, I can maybe see it. But I really think that it's about the same as worrying about the finish on an amp - you might as well be mixing with your eyes. Does anyone disagree and have examples of recordings where you can actually hear the shells resonating or tell what kind of drum shells are being used? (please move this to a more appropriate thread if one exists, but i am really interested in the opinions of the HE folks)

11th May 2004	#2
Scinx Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2003 Location: USA Posts: 581	There is definately a difference between wood shells for drums - just as their is with wood used in guitars. Birch, Maple, Mahogony, etc. shells all sound different. You can get all types of woods, you can get different widths (plys). The reason is that they give different sounds. If the wood shell didnt matter - then manufacturers would be rewarded for using the cheapest wood out there. __________________ . Tak My latest project: For your listening pleasure or Listen via YouTube

11th May 2004	#11
Drumsound Lives for gear Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Bloomington Il Posts: 5,185	Even if you can't put on a record and say "Those drums are_______" it still makes a huge difference in the record. A good player will play based on the feedback of the instrument they are playing. The way the thing sounds in the room, how it hits them in the gut will, beyond a shadow of a doubt, affect how they play. If you don't think how the player plays affects the mix, you need to re-evaluate how your making records IMHO. __________________ Tony Oxide Lounge Recording See the Oxide Lounge! Follow me on TWITTER! WWJMD? Come see me on the Tape Op boards! It's only inches on the reel to reel

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11th May 2004	#3
RBS Gear interested Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 18	In recording rock and pop type music I agree that the Birch vs Maple thing is lost for the most part. Good quality shells, good heads and tuning are far more important.

11th May 2004	#7
heinz Lives for gear Joined: Mar 2003 Location: chicago Posts: 1,025	On something super-intimate like small combo jazz where a tom is up-front and large... you can definitely hear the difference in the final recording. But is it the wood as much as the construction? How much difference between woods would be related to all the properties... hardness, curing, number of plys, how it was joined, what was used to finish/seal it, how the hardware is mounted and how the drum is suspended from the mount. I mean it gets just as silly as trying to pin down this question with a guitar builder... sooo many variables. But in say a hard rock situation, there's much more traffic to deal with and as a result it's a much smaller factor... naturally this all depends on the music/arrangement.

11th May 2004	#10
Jose Mrochek Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 3,830	In my very poor knowledge of this matter, guitars specificaly (acoustic) I'd say the body shape is what matters most. I have both a 1,300$ Takamine with all the cool wood. I ended up recording my album with a 200$ i don't know what brand guitar, which sounds better.(better to me) I would say, the wood does make a difference, but I would definetly not be able to tell in a mix with the other instruments playing over it. And with drums... even worse. No one, maybe designers that have been building drums for decades would definetly tell.. but not an engineer, or producer, or musician. If it sounds good to you, who cares if it's a carton box

11th May 2004	#13
stakeoutstudios Gear maniac Joined: Aug 2003 Location: London, UK Posts: 199	The wood certainly does make a difference, but as does the construction, thickness and no. of plies. A Pearl Export kit will not sound like my TAMA starclassic maple kit. However a drum workshop kit will sound different again to the TAMA, but each will sound good in it's own way. (except the Pearl) Even if you put identical heads on each different drumkit, and they were the same dimensions, they would still sound different. Much of the reason they choose certain woods is because it is easier to manipulate certain types of woods to different thicknesses an no. of plys. For example thicker shelled kits will often be birch or even oak. Thinner shelled kits are usually maple or an even more exotic wood. Suspension mounted toms / snares also make a big difference, especially if you compare them to kits with the toms mounted in the kick. the lack of sympathetic resonance can have quite a big impact on a recording.