Neve 8816: Audio Sample

[Vato]

For me -the proof is in the pudding. My mixes have improved ten fold with the 8816. I just finished a mix using it on a song I had previously done ITB. Here is a before and after example.
Enjoy---Vato

[Rob King]

The ITB mix is better overall to my ears. You lost a lot of bass on the OTB mix. There is a bit of a sparkle on the top end of the OTB but overall the ITB sounds better to my ears. Just listened for 30 sec to each and skipped around.. Just my 2 cents

[Vato]

Yeah- you know back when I mixed the ITB mix I was mixing a lot more bass heavy than I am now. My ME got me to settle down a bit. the OTB is a pre master and is set up to be mastered to half inch tape. I took both samples into PEAK before posting and gave them both a little boost with RenComp and L2 (poor mans mastering).
I still believe the OTB mix is a better print. The Neve gave it that gloss.
Thanks for the comment
Vato

[Vato]

Oh and 1 more thing- I just listened to my post.
I swear- it doesnt sound like that from my copy. ITunes did the MP3 conversion and it does something funny to the mix.
Still- I may have been a little bass shy on my OTB mix.
Vato

[patrox247]

I was thinking that I would probably prefer the ITB mix because I don't know how much I'm buying into these summing boxes, but I have to say that the OTB mix has much more depth. I was really surprised by the difference.

[computa]

IMHO, OTB mix sounds wider but the middle is scooped out and punch is gone.

[Vato]

Originally Posted by patrox247

I was thinking that I would probably prefer the ITB mix because I don't know how much I'm buying into these summing boxes, but I have to say that the OTB mix has much more depth. I was really surprised by the difference.

Thanks for the post- I am very happy for having made the change tto OTB, however , there are still some mixes i sttill do ITB becausee of time constraints. I always miss that depth though.
Vato

[redroom]

For me the difference is night and day with thses 2 mixes

The OTB has great dimension and much better sense of space but does lack some bottom but that is probably due to the fact that your still feeling out the sweet spot
on the neve.

The ITB mix did nothing for me

[patrox247]

Originally Posted by Vato

Thanks for the post- I am very happy for having made the change tto OTB, however , there are still some mixes i sttill do ITB becausee of time constraints. I always miss that depth though.
Vato

Now that I've listened again, I would have to say that I really like what that box does to the tone and to the imaging and depth. Man I'm going to have to eat my hat because I was one of the guys who was saying that there wouldn't be much of an audible difference by simply running through a summing amplifier. Sounds good man.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by Rob King

The ITB mix is better overall to my ears. You lost a lot of bass on the OTB mix. There is a bit of a sparkle on the top end of the OTB but overall the ITB sounds better to my ears. Just listened for 30 sec to each and skipped around.. Just my 2 cents

At first the ITB mix is louder. That's not fair at all. Anyway I quite disagree, even if the OTB mixe misses some bass is much more three dimensional, has a lot better transient response and everything has the contour and separation that the ITB mix misses.

However.. did you use the same eq and compression ? I don't think it's only a matter of summing...it sounds like you used different eq's (and maybe compressors) and that the ITB has been maximized.

Bottom line... +1 for the OTB one

[suiseidl]

Originally Posted by Vato

Oh and 1 more thing- I just listened to my post.
I swear- it doesnt sound like that from my copy. ITunes did the MP3 conversion and it does something funny to the mix.
Still- I may have been a little bass shy on my OTB mix.
Vato

i hate itunes. use cdex, or some other program which uses the "lame" encoder. thats the best mp3 encoder around imo. and +1 on otb, everything sound much more spread out, now i can hear the reverb on the vocals ;-)

[patrox247]

How much better does the lead vocal on th OTB mix sound! WOW!

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by Vato

For me -the proof is in the pudding. My mixes have improved ten fold with the 8816. I just finished a mix using it on a song I had previously done ITB. Here is a before and after example.
Enjoy---Vato

Not even close - the OTB mix is much better - more depth and finished feel.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by Rob King

You lost a lot of bass on the OTB mix. There is a bit of a sparkle on the top end

same here!

Originally Posted by computa

IMHO, OTB mix sounds wider but the middle is scooped out and punch is gone.

This is what seems is the sound of the 8816???
Are always the same characteristics I find with the 8816...

Originally Posted by patrox247

How much better does the lead vocal on th OTB mix sound! WOW!

yes sounds better but is louder too!!!! that helps.

Vato there is a way you can describe the mix approach ITB/OTB to understand where are the real differences...I can hear more shine and sparrel in the HF range ...and I hope is not something was added by the 8816

Wave files would be great!!
Thanks!

[carlheinz]

The first thing I hear is a better drum sound on the OTB mix.That snare is so much thicker and full sounding.Makes the ITB mix sound not as powerfull.

[lpkyer]

wow.

[Vato]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

even if the OTB mixe misses some bass is much more three dimensional, has a lot better transient response and everything has the contour and separation that the ITB mix misses.
However.. did you use the same eq and compression ? I don't think it's only a matter of summing...it sounds like you used different eq's (and maybe compressors) and that the ITB has been maximized.
Bottom line... +1 for the OTB one

Thank all of you for the feedback. This is one of nine cuts on the record. I will post more examples of before and after. i had the entire record finished and then the Neve came and changed everything. I must admit- i also incorperate an Alan Smart C2 as an insert on the back end of the Neve. Also I bought the optional A/D card so my Summed mixes are getting the best possible print to the masterlink.
As for the ITB mix. I did what all ITB users do......Use ITB plugins everywhere. That mix got a heavy dose of RenComp on the Stems(itb) as well as the master bus.
But then thats another benefit of OTB..you get to use the juicy, slutty, wet-three dimensional outboard gear.
I get mad sometimes when Im doing an ITB mix and I hear it through the Neve because the Neve is controling everything...... then the dreaded bounce to disc comes ....and the first time you hear that mix outside the studio I want to vomit.

I cant say enough how much I respect all of you ( well most of you) slutz. I posted this thinking there would be some who didnt like my mix and I am totally ok with that. I have learned a lot from you slutz so I just want to say thanks.
One thing is for sure ....OTB ( and I know there are other summing mixers that are equally as effective) makes a big difference. To me it IS "that sound" i was missing.
Vato

[Mark1353]

This really is not a surprise, but expected result. OTB sounds REAL, ITB sounds like flat plastic/synthetic noise.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

This is what seems is the sound of the 8816???
Are always the same characteristics I find with the 8816...

This is the characteristic of the Neve VR series sound in general. But the biggest advantage of the console is that you have extra busses and returns to prop up the mix with some chosen parallels on certain channels. On a summing box you are pretty much stuck and its one of the reasons i prefer not to use them.

And i am kinda lost as to why you couldn't use the same analog gear ITB?

[jaxvon]

Originally Posted by Vato

For me -the proof is in the pudding. My mixes have improved ten fold with the 8816. I just finished a mix using it on a song I had previously done ITB. Here is a before and after example.
Enjoy---Vato

Both mixes sound excellent. But the OTB mix just sounds like a record. The only thing I don't like about the OTB mix is the guitar solo at the end. It's a lot more punchy on the ITB mix. The OTB mix just sounds kinda...flat. Still, who needs mastering?

[Vato]

Here is another mix i did before/after the Neve 8816.
I am trying to use wave files but they are too big, so I will continue to use this ugly sounding ITunes MP3 converter untill someone tells me how to shrink a WAV file.
I will leave the guessing to you this time. i am just curious to see your oppinions.
Will Post back in a bit.
Vato

[patrox247]

This time the Neve is A

[jaxvon]

Originally Posted by Vato

Here is another mix i did before/after the Neve 8816.
I am trying to use wave files but they are too big, so I will continue to use this ugly sounding ITunes MP3 converter untill someone tells me how to shrink a WAV file.
I will leave the guessing to you this time. i am just curious to see your oppinions.
Will Post back in a bit.
Vato

I would use EAC with LAME (there should be links to LAME on their website). By far the most accurate way to rip audio CDs and/or convert audio to mp3.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

But the biggest advantage of the console is that you have extra busses and returns to prop up the mix with some chosen parallels on certain channels. On a summing box you are pretty much stuck and its one of the reasons i prefer not to use them.

Hi, Thrill.

I know you consider my 8816/patchbay setup to be a "workaround", and thus off limits...................but I am normally set up for parallel processing on 10 tracks, and can easily do more if I wish.

(BTW, I set this up based on some super valuable recommendations you made to me earlier about the use of parallel processing).

And I still have plenty on summing inputs for lots of delays/reverbs/effects.

This is with three 8816's and four 96TT patchbays.

I know, it would be easier with a console...............but I can patch it in my sleep now.

I wish you could sit in front of my set up for an hour and check it out...............but I'm a long way from NYC.

It is not a console..........but I get better results than ITB every time.
Course my best is probably worse than your worst on either.........but I try to make up for lack of talent with hard work and tenacity.

Just saying that the limitations of summing units can be dealt with for the most part...............if you're adventurous..........and you would probably say masochistic.

Seriously, I really find it easier to work with the patchbays than staring at a screen and setting up an ITB mix.
I know where everything is, and it is all right at my fingertips.

[GYang]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Seriously, I really find it easier to work with the patchbays than staring at a screen and setting up an ITB mix.
I know where everything is, and it is all right at my fingertips.

I really feel what you say.
Still some sort of little console in addition to summing boxes would be fine.
Like Tonelux, Neotek or D&R.
I don't want 48 ch+ desk in my room. Many reasons for that.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Hi, Thrill.

I know you consider my 8816/patchbay setup to be a "workaround", and thus off limits...................but I am normally set up for parallel processing on 10 tracks, and can easily do more if I wish.

(BTW, I set this up based on some super valuable recommendations you made to me earlier about the use of parallel processing).

And I still have plenty on summing inputs for lots of delays/reverbs/effects.

This is with three 8816's and four 96TT patchbays.

I know, it would be easier with a console...............but I can patch it in my sleep now.

I wish you could sit in front of my set up for an hour and check it out...............but I'm a long way from NYC.

It is not a console..........but I get better results than ITB every time.
Course my best is probably worse than your worst on either.........but I try to make up for lack of talent with hard work and tenacity.

Just saying that the limitations of summing units can be dealt with for the most part...............if you're adventurous..........and you would probably say masochistic.

Seriously, I really find it easier to work with the patchbays than staring at a screen and setting up an ITB mix.
I know where everything is, and it is all right at my fingertips.

Ok i got a scenario for you based on Vato's song/mix:

Lets say he wants to do a couple of quick parallels to juice up the middle of the mix. Lets say something quick for the kick,snare & bass, then a different mono parallel with all of the kicks,snares and basses and he wants to group everything together plus the original drum kit for an overall drum parallel. How would you balance the return of the parallels against the originals and still be able to automate both for different parts of the song?

(And don't forget if the drums over power everything you may need to setup a seperate release valve/escape hatch parallel where you can buss the tracks that are starting to get lost).

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by Vato

Here is another mix i did before/after the Neve 8816.
I am trying to use wave files but they are too big, so I will continue to use this ugly sounding ITunes MP3 converter untill someone tells me how to shrink a WAV file.
I will leave the guessing to you this time. i am just curious to see your oppinions.
Will Post back in a bit.
Vato

Nice mix! I like the vocals and cymbals better in A, the snare and guitars sounds better to me in B. Well, if B is considered as the ITB mix I think it would be no problem to treat the stereo bus to sound like A. I don't get the point of summing here, it sounds mainly like a different eq-curve to me.

Thanks for sharing, Andreas

[Koed]

Originally Posted by Vato

I am trying to use wave files but they are too big, so I will continue to use this ugly sounding ITunes MP3 converter untill someone tells me how to shrink a WAV file.

Try using the FLAC compression on your wav's.

It's free, most players support it and it's lossless.

[Vato]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Ok i got a scenario for you based on Vato's song/mix:

Lets say he wants to do a couple of quick parallels to juice up the middle of the mix. Lets say something quick for the kick,snare & bass, then a different mono parallel with all of the kicks,snares and basses and he wants to group everything together plus the original drum kit for an overall drum parallel. How would you balance the return of the parallels against the originals and still be able to automate both for different parts of the song?

(And don't forget if the drums over power everything you may need to setup a seperate release valve/escape hatch parallel where you can buss the tracks that are starting to get lost).

Well I guess you all know the OTB mix is A. I hear what some of you are saying about the mids being scoopesd sounding. I think I am just finding my way through a new style of mixing. I cut a lot of 400 to 1000 when sum because Im using my outboard lunchbox for EQ: (2) Avedis E27s on whatever I feel needs it the most, as well as (2) MC77s for color NOT control. I am curious....Sometimes my mixes pop out too much Kick/Snare. I like the way they sound but they sometimes leave every thing else in the dust. As for this " parallel" talk. I am not so sure what you are saying. Do you mean to say- Have another stereo stem in addition to my: 1-kik, 2-Snr, 3&4-Drums, 5&6-Guitars, 7&8-BG Vox and Keys, 9&10-FX,
11-Lead Vox, and 12 Bass....add to this a "mid-rangy" stem? Why not just gently EQ a little mid into one or all of the stems?
What are you speaking of when you say " release valve"," escape hatch"?
What I think you mean is to keep a spare stereo mix available on the Neve to add in weaker elements.
Am I right or wrong- just hit me over the head with it.

[Vato]

Sorry- I have been up all night mixing. What I meant to say about the Avedis EQs is that I use them when I mix OTB,. Otherwise I (when I mix ITB ) I just use plugs for everything. Those outboard toys are so generous. I sometimes get too friendly with the Avedis EQs and cut too much mids. But in my defense I just got them and have been experimenting with them a lot.
Alas- my conclusion to my own "to OTB or not to OTB" debate is that I know what I hear now vs what I used to hear. I love OTB. These mixes you hear are 2 of the first ones I did. The girl you hear singing is only 18 yrs old and doesnt know a thing about recording, yet, she knows she likes the new mixes through the Neve better. Thanks for all of your comments.
Vato