Who's using a sub with main monitors?

[Midiguy]

I've long debated adding a sub to my set-up. On the one hand, I'd be able to better hear what's going on down in those low frequencies. On the other hand, most listeners aren't going to be listening with a sub.

Who is using and who is not using (a sub) and what are your reasons?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Midiguy

Who is using and who is not using (a sub) and what are your reasons?

Unless you're mixing surround movie sound tracks, it's better to have a single pair of speakers that plays low enough than lesser speakers with a sub. Reproducing bass frequencies in a control room is difficult enough without adding yet more "combining" problems from having three sound sources all active around the crossover point.

--Ethan

[Pascal Sijen]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Unless you're mixing surround movie sound tracks, it's better to have a single pair of speakers that plays low enough than lesser speakers with a sub. Reproducing bass frequencies in a control room is difficult enough without adding yet more "combining" problems from having three sound sources all active around the crossover point.

--Ethan

Looking at the research done by Harman, my own extensive experience at THX and the feedback we have received from many users, I believe a properly integrated, placed and calibrated subwoofer can help to improve the accuracy of a monitoring system. This is why all of our systems include a subwoofer as integral part of the monitoring system.

Having said that; without properly integrated filters and calibration, I will agree that you can have less than stellar results (poor integration between SUB and main speakers etc).

Anyway, we have more information on our website, which details our thoughts on this subject...

Cheers!

[gainstages]

for mastering work, a sub helps meto be able to hear any low rumble or thumps that may not be apparent on normal full range speakers.

agreed with ethan on the added challenge of making sure it is properly calibrated and that the room acoustics are correct though.

[matthew.sawicki]

I personally swear by a sub, but I work on a lot of hiphop. I really could not live without a sub, and I feel like it greatly benefits my mixes to have one. YMMV though...

[Bob Olhsson]

I've found you really need separate subs for each channel if you want to use the system as a serious monitoring tool.

[The Kamillion]

one other thing to consider is, if youre driving your main active monitors too hard, the amps will overwork and you'll lose imaging. a sub takes some of the load off your mains.

[melodic_disaster]

i use a sub. i pretty much think you need one for urban music or soundtrack production. TV or rock not so much. given that this board seems very genre weighted towards rock, ymmv as they (he) say.

i find it very key to have full range monitors and switch the sub in and out at will so you don't have to mix on it full time (perhaps an exception being a ns10 with sub)

not always necessary to use it, but you pretty much have to have acces to what is going on down there, one way or another.

that is, unless you have the money for a full range mastering (B&W, Sovereign ,Legacy, et al) or a nice pair of bigs in the CR (augsbergers et al). that's probabaly the optimal but costly solution.

i have never heard a three piece system that is not somewhat "loose" - meaning difficult to mix on full time. the larger genelec (8050 and 7071 etc) aren't quite so bad if you like the 8050's (i don't). haven't heard the sky's. i would add that i have found two subs to be bettert than one, and they are tough to place in the room, which i should also add needs to be well tuned.

btw these custom systems hip hop dudes are putting in their suv's sound like they go pretty damn low. i'd say a lot of those types of consumers today require ultra low precision. the ones without big trucks, perhaps not. but in urban your low end means credibility and respect.

[delcosmos]

I agree with you, and that is why I want to try the Barefoot Audio speakers, because right now I'm mixing with SA3a with a sub and I felt that there's a "frequency hole" between the speakers and the sub.

Best regards.

Delcosmos.

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Unless you're mixing surround movie sound tracks, it's better to have a single pair of speakers that plays low enough than lesser speakers with a sub. Reproducing bass frequencies in a control room is difficult enough without adding yet more "combining" problems from having three sound sources all active around the crossover point.

--Ethan

[Colossal]

CLA uses one

[diamondjim]

Originally Posted by gainstages

for mastering work, a sub helps meto be able to hear any low rumble or thumps that may not be apparent on normal full range speakers.

agreed with ethan on the added challenge of making sure it is properly calibrated and that the room acoustics are correct though.

I couldn't agree more. I recently completed a compilation CD that I mixed and mastered on Adam A7's. I did not hear some LF rumble until I played the candidate master on my home stereo with its 15" Cerwin Vega speakers.

So I hooked up my KRK sub (which was on loan) and calibrated it using the directions provided by KRK. I have the sub connected to a pair of KRK Rocket 8's, and A/B between these and the Adams. I will try this out for a while, but I think it will improve the mixing process.

I had originally removed the sub because it was providing too much bass information. Since then I have added several bass traps (rear corners and ceiling above mix position), and having calibrated the monitor with pink noise, I feel like I have a better overall handle on the sound.

That being said, what Ethan points out is good advice, because my initial experience with a sub was not particularly optimal. It can be a blunt instrument.

[Bob Olhsson]

In a nutshell, low frequency sound is not omnidirectional and the low frequencies can't possibly sum properly into mono.

It's a nice consumer hi fi effect but too hyped to use as any kind of a serious mixing or mastering tool.

[melodic_disaster]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

In a nutshell, low frequency sound is not omnidirectional and the low frequencies can't possibly sum properly into mono.

It's a nice consumer hi fi effect but too hyped to use as any kind of a serious mixing or mastering tool.

no, but its a heck of a lot less directional than, say other frequencies. bob, isn't "hi fi effect" a bit extreme?

granted we have a tradeoff today between smaller rooms without bigs and full range audiophile speakers not a great choice for the extremes of tracking conditions - but this solution is not exatly a horrible compromise when you consider today's (physical and financial) constraints, no?

regardless you are correct, in my experience some sub systems are actually just less "mushy" than the next.

but within the whole context of close and midrange monitors, isn't it better to have something to kick in the chain and hear what's down there?

still saving up for my legacy helix - what alternatives would you recommend?

Originally Posted by delcosmos

I agree with you, and that is why I want to try the Barefoot Audio speakers, because right now I'm mixing with SA3a with a sub and I felt that there's a "frequency hole" between the speakers and the sub.

Best regards.

Delcosmos.

i agree, and i don't love the downward firing adam sub - i would rather have the (somewhat) directional 7071 type. i hate switching though. barefoot does has the downward/upward firing sub, although when i heard this a/b'd from the sweet spot of a pair of augsbergers and i'd have to say the bass was pretty even. but i've never done a mix and it wasn't my room.

a bit OT but i'd love to hear someone who made the switch from s3a + sub to barefoot mm's

[Jason Poulin]

I love using a sub... I find I work quicker and I can get right in there with the bass when I want to.






J.

[DSMrehearsal]

for accuracy I like no sub (using ATC monitors) for mojo and vibe/getting an idea of what it's like in a club I like a nice 15 incher, and for listening to dub at home the 18 inch mackie gets fired up

[GYang]

Depends on system.
With ADAms I didn't like how sub integrated sonically.
With K+H it is part of system, with properly done crossover, without overlaping frequencies.
I use two subs, as one would not integrate to both monitors. In such case function of subs is to release the part of hard job from woofers in region below 90Hz. The result is not more low frequencies, but more resolution in deep bass sounds and increase of overall power of the system.
K+H goes deep without subwoofers, but works much better in the low end frequencies with pair of subwoofers.
Actually, with two subs it is full fledged 4-way system.

[LoopQuantum]

Is the majority of your end product being listened to with a sub?

[matthew.sawicki]

Originally Posted by LoopQuantum

Is the majority of your end product being listened to with a sub?

Mine is, and i now use a sub that I feel closely approximates the typical sub in my works listening environment.

Not to mention cross reference on less capable systems to be sure that the translation still works for my mix.

[LoopQuantum]

Originally Posted by matthew.sawicki

Mine is, and i now use a sub that I feel closely approximates the typical sub in my works listening environment.

Not to mention cross reference on less capable systems to be sure that the translation still works for my mix.

Right on... and this is what I'm getting at. Much to my chagrin, I've been forced to use a sub lately...which is a bit alien to me as I've never really needed one. I work with a LOT of metal projects, and it seems everybody keeps tuning down. I'm finding the majority of my mixing time is spent clearing a path for the bass guitar, kick drum, and low E of the guitar... well Low E would be nice...it's actually of late been Low C, Low B, Low A, and EVEN LOW F!!! Damn you Meshuggah, and your influence on the kids these days!

Yow... so a sub is doing me good these days.....but it's, in my opinion, not a given necessity for all.

[Pronecobra]

I actually have a foot switch connected to my sub so I can turn it off along with its cross-over. So I can listen to the audio's full frequency range either through the 2 main monitors or both the 2 main monitors and the subwoofer. I use the sub to listen response below 50Hz. However, I would prefer to get two normal stereo monitors with a wider range, preferably down to 35Hz.

So, being able to switch back and forth between sub and no sub has been very useful for me. You just gotta make sure that the cross-over is disengaged.

P.Cobratutt

I need new monitors. Alas, I am poor. Free money please!

[De chromium cob]

I have Proac Studio 100s and run them full range off of Audio Research mono blocks. I try and integrate my Velodyne sub to pick up the slack from around 45Hz down to under 20Hz. The great thing about the Velodyne is that it has a remote control, so I just mute the sub until I want to get really nit picky with the low end. Best of both worlds!