The ONE problem with analog summing devices... and well... analog mixers too...

crypticglobe · 4th October 2007

Ok... am I the only one? I know I am not because I just had this discussion with a friend.... and he actually brought it up.

To me.. the one thing that I can not believe technology has not found a good solution to yet is....... Pan knobs!!

They should be automatable by now! At the very least with the ability to re-call. I mean... all of these summing busses either require manual reset of the pan, or they are simply stereo pairs so that you can do the panning in your DAW.

What we need are summing busses and/or consoles with a motorized, touch sensitive pan knob. This would allow us to actually incorporate the channels of a mixer, or summing bus in a more logical way and combined with automated faders.... get back to really MIXING in analog world with the beauty of full recall.

Pan and volume are to the two biggees to me that need exact, and easy automation and re-call. Are me... and my lone friend crazy.... or are there others that don't understand why pan hasn't been given more attention in the analog world for recall and automation??

Thanks in advance for joining me in this exciting discussion... lol

stevetgn · 4th October 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by crypticglobe

They should be automatable by now! At the very least with the ability to re-call.

My SSL X-Rack has Total Recall on the pan pots! Just though I'd say so

alexstringer · 4th October 2007

I thought the 8816 had control over pan / cue and faders?

Franco · 4th October 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexstringer

I thought the 8816 had control over pan / cue and faders?

It has recall software, you still have to turn the knobs to the right setting.

Bob Ross · 4th October 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by crypticglobe

Pan and volume are to the two biggees to me that need exact, and easy automation and re-call. Are me... and my lone friend crazy.... or are there others that don't understand why pan hasn't been given more attention in the analog world for recall and automation??

While it wouldn't occur to me to proclaim you & your friend crazy, I will say that we clearly have different priorities. Maybe it's because the first recording studio I ever worked at had no panpots, just Left/Right/Both assignment switches, but I'd have to rank the importance of "exact and easy automation and recall" of panning information down there along with what type of coffee the drummer's girlfriend prefers. It's just not that big a deal for me to reset a bunch of pan knobs...or to have the panning allocated within the DAW & just use the summing box as stereo stems.

vernier · 4th October 2007

Quote:

While it wouldn't occur to me to proclaim you & your friend crazy, I will say that we clearly have different priorities. Maybe it's because the first recording studio I ever worked at had no panpots, just Left/Right/Both assignment switches, but I'd have to rank the importance of "exact and easy automation and recall" of panning information down there along with what type of coffee the drummer's girlfriend prefers. It's just not that big a deal for me to reset a bunch of pan knobs...or to have the panning allocated within the DAW & just use the summing box as stereo stems.

Yep, left/right/both switches ..it's what my next console will have.

Led · 5th October 2007

Yeah but with left/right/both switches how do you pan something mid left or right if you want to? Wouldn't you need a pot?
As far as recall I just put a clock number ie - 3 o'clock - that corresponds to the console pan position in the track notes in my DAW. I put all recall notes in the notes section in the song file that way they are all there whenever I reopen it later.

Vato · 5th October 2007

It takes all of 1 minute to click my 8816's recall software and it tells me where EVERY knob IS and where it needs to BE. I am very happy with this unit for many reasons but the recall software is stellar. It has pan on all 16 channels.
Vato

u b k · 5th October 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Led

Yeah but with left/right/both switches how do you pan something mid left or right if you want to? Wouldn't you need a pot?

you can assign a sound to two channels, hard-panned, and use the faders to move it around in all directions.

or you can just mix with 3 panning options, maybe even 3 or 4 eq options, and see if that's actually a limitation or some form of freedom.

gregoire
del
ubk
.

QRS · 5th October 2007

chris lord-alge said in an interview he just uses left/mid/right... no inbetween
(exception: orchestra)... easy work for pan-knobs.
just a funny consideration...

vernier · 5th October 2007

Quote:

Yeah but with left/right/both switches how do you pan something mid left or right if you want to? Wouldn't you need a pot?

Hard left, hard right, or center is how they mixed up till the 70's, and I like mixing that way. A pan circuit messes with the integrety of the sound, so I don't use it, and want it out of my console. It's an un-needed drain.

kats · 5th October 2007

Yeah I was just listening to DSOTM last night in the studio. Pretty much hard panning all the way. If you know what your doing, it's mighty!

Dan · 5th October 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by u b k

you can assign a sound to two channels, hard-panned, and use the faders to move it around in all directions.

or you can just mix with 3 panning options, maybe even 3 or 4 eq options, and see if that's actually a limitation or some form of freedom.

gregoire
del
ubk
.

That would use up channels pretty quickly. And to have it double assigned, and eq'ed differently and panned differently would seem to cause a smeared image. It'll be interesting to try though. thumbsup
I think pan faders would be cool. Tiny little motorized faders. I guess it would be hard to be as precise as pots.
What about a fader flip mode, where -10 is center, and up/down is left/right? That's a little complicated in the relay department, but easy enough for digitally controlled analogue.

Killahurts · 5th October 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan

I think pan faders would be cool. Tiny little motorized faders. I guess it would be hard to be as precise as pots.

That's what I was thinking.. maybe the reason we don't see motorized pan pots is because the motors would have to be very strong and durable (think about the type of pressures/angles it would have to withstand), and also the precision factor, like you said.

Bob Yordan · 5th October 2007

When I bought both my summing mixers (Vintage Design SU1J & Tube Tech), one of the aspects was that they should not have any external tweaking knobs, except for the main level knobs.

Just so that total recall was possible.

Jim Williams · 5th October 2007

Being that the pan pots on my analog console get the least amount of use during a mix, I would find motorizing them far less useful than a fader which is adjusted during mixdown.

If a pan pot is moved during mixdown, it would only be one or maybe two, manual control can take care of that, I'm not that lazy yet.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

4th October 2007	#1
crypticglobe Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Nashville Posts: 2,507 Thread Starter 1 Review written	The ONE problem with analog summing devices... and well... analog mixers too... Ok... am I the only one? I know I am not because I just had this discussion with a friend.... and he actually brought it up. To me.. the one thing that I can not believe technology has not found a good solution to yet is....... Pan knobs!! They should be automatable by now! At the very least with the ability to re-call. I mean... all of these summing busses either require manual reset of the pan, or they are simply stereo pairs so that you can do the panning in your DAW. What we need are summing busses and/or consoles with a motorized, touch sensitive pan knob. This would allow us to actually incorporate the channels of a mixer, or summing bus in a more logical way and combined with automated faders.... get back to really MIXING in analog world with the beauty of full recall. Pan and volume are to the two biggees to me that need exact, and easy automation and re-call. Are me... and my lone friend crazy.... or are there others that don't understand why pan hasn't been given more attention in the analog world for recall and automation?? Thanks in advance for joining me in this exciting discussion... lol __________________ Steve Lamm Cryptic Globe Recording CGR Studios - Engineering, Mixing, and Production Cryptic Globe Recording - Custom PC DAW Systems! Ask me about my Custom Mac!!

5th October 2007	#8
Vato Gear maniac Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Fargo Posts: 181	It takes 1 minute It takes all of 1 minute to click my 8816's recall software and it tells me where EVERY knob IS and where it needs to BE. I am very happy with this unit for many reasons but the recall software is stellar. It has pan on all 16 channels. Vato

5th October 2007	#15
Bob Yordan Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: EUtopia, Stockholm Posts: 954	When I bought both my summing mixers (Vintage Design SU1J & Tube Tech), one of the aspects was that they should not have any external tweaking knobs, except for the main level knobs. Just so that total recall was possible. __________________ Cheers Bob "Dr Behringers I presume? No it's a copy!" "ken lee... tulibu dibu douchoo" "It's not 96khz idiot, it's 96hz. Now who sounds dumb?...Yu" " Hello! Is it ME your looking for?" - Bob Katz : "This loudness race is self-defeating. I'm using Thomson sub-machine guns on folk music now." http://www.byd-media.net/om.mp3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KsFz...layer_embedded

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4th October 2007	#3
alexstringer Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 2,020	I thought the 8816 had control over pan / cue and faders?

5th October 2007	#7
Led Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,711	Yeah but with left/right/both switches how do you pan something mid left or right if you want to? Wouldn't you need a pot? As far as recall I just put a clock number ie - 3 o'clock - that corresponds to the console pan position in the track notes in my DAW. I put all recall notes in the notes section in the song file that way they are all there whenever I reopen it later.

5th October 2007	#10
QRS Gear Head Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 65	chris lord-alge said in an interview he just uses left/mid/right... no inbetween (exception: orchestra)... easy work for pan-knobs. just a funny consideration...

5th October 2007	#12
kats Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,647	Yeah I was just listening to DSOTM last night in the studio. Pretty much hard panning all the way. If you know what your doing, it's mighty!

5th October 2007	#16
Jim Williams Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA Posts: 9,364	Being that the pan pots on my analog console get the least amount of use during a mix, I would find motorizing them far less useful than a fader which is adjusted during mixdown. If a pan pot is moved during mixdown, it would only be one or maybe two, manual control can take care of that, I'm not that lazy yet. Jim Williams Audio Upgrades