AD/DA converters for small home studio

[solarium99]

Hello, I have recently stumbled upon these forums in my quest for a new AD/DA setup. Although I have learned a lot by reading various threads on the forum, I would like to directly ask for advice on my current dilemma...

I am looking for a high quailty setup, but currently only need (at most) 4 simultaneous channels in the AD section. I only need the DA to send to my monitors presently, but intend to purachse outboard gear later for processing which may require more channels for bussing. I also need the abiltity to send to a pair of headphones.

I have been considering several options: First, the Rosetta 800 clocked to a Big Ben seems like a good option, giving me more channels than I need in the both the AD and DA sections and roughly the quality of the Apogee X-series for about $4000. Second, I have considered the Lavry Blue which I could buy with a stereo AD and DA and add on later if I need more channels. That's about $2500 now, with more money to spend if Iwant to add on. Lastly, I'm considering just getting the AD-16x (even though I cannot possibly use all those channels) and a Benchmark DAC-1. This way, I would have always have the option of completely replacing the Benchmark if I need more channels later, while keeping a high-quality AD.

I hope this hasn't been too long-winded or scattered - I am just confused and want to solicit advice from those who have been here before. I am looking for the highest possible quality within this price range, with the most options for expansion later. (Or should I even be worrying about expansion?) Any thoughts much appreciated!

Joe

[jslevin]

Joe, it would help if we understood your situation better.

Would preamps be of any use to you? What are you recording onto, stand-alone recorder or DAW interface, and which one? These questions may have some bearing on the best AD/DA for you, particularly once cost is considered.

Also, what have you used before, and what did you consider lacking about it? How good are you looking for, and what experience are you going to compare your new converters against?

JSL

[solarium99]

I would also need to purchase preamps. I am currently using a (cringes) Presonus Firepod which has 8 pres and 8 channel AD/DA. I'm really looking to make an investment into future recordings my taking this big step up.

I have used Apogee converters and the Digi 192 I/O before, so I have a good idea of the difference in quality. My thought is that investing in better converters would be a good first step. I also considered just getting a bettter "all-in-one" unit like the Apogee Ensemble, but concluded that I would probably end up replacing that at a later date anyway. I would like to start investing in high-end gear now rather than go through another prosumer product for a few years.

I use Logic for most of my tracking.

Hope that gives a clearer picture..

Joe

[bluegrasser]

Originally Posted by solarium99

I am currently using a (cringes) Presonus Firepod which has 8 pres and 8 channel

Joe

Well, you're talking about some pretty fancy conversion while you have el cheapo preamps. I know people debate this. But I'd get a nice preamp frist and then upgrade your ad/da section. As you probably know, there are some high end preamps out there with a/d sections. API, NEVE, and GRACE come to mind......I think FOCUSRITE has an 8 channel pre with and A/D section, but I Could be wrong.......................

[solarium99]

I should clarify that I fully intend on buying preamps, and have no intention of using the presonus anymore. Hopefully that answers the "cart before the horse" thing.

Essentially, I'm asking about the 3 converter setups that I proposed. I will worry about the preamps another day -I already have some good ideas about those.

I am interested in opinions on 4-8 channel AD/DA converters.

Joe

[Pohaku]

I just upgraded the converters for my home studio and opted to go with a Lynx Aurora 8, AES16 card and a Central Station for monitoring/phones. That gives me plenty of ins and outs for what I do (guitar/string instrument based Americana), and enough extra ins and outs to accomodate friends with larger projects. I have quite a bit of outboard gear so having 8 channels each of AD and DA is helpful. It's not Lavry, but it should be more than adequate for the foreseeable future. Aurora 8 is @$1800, AES card is another $600. Got the free cable deal in the process -- otherwise those run @$240 for a full set. Central Station is another $400. XLR-TRS converter cables (since all the Lynx analog in-out cables are XLR) were another @$80 for 16 of them. So, all in at @$2,900 for 8 channels of decent AD/DA and monitoring control.

[walth]

check out the Apogee AD-8000SE. 8 Channels for $1,000 used.
The Lynx Aurora 8 and lynx aurora 16 are also great for the money.
I'm a apogee fan but i have friends who are raving about the lynx. time for a Apogee/Lynx/(Digi 192 ) shoot out.

I hope this helps.

Personally i'd get the AD-8000SE and spend the rest on API 3124+, Daking 4 channel, GML 4 channel, or Focusrite ISA-828 Mic Pres.


You have a lot of options. what type of music do you record?

[jslevin]

Honestly, as you describe your situation, I really would try out the Apogee Ensemble. It gives you eight channels of conversion, four far better mic preamps than you've been using, and four direct line inputs for the other mic pres that you want to buy. You can also add a two-channel preamp with ADC at some point, like an API A2D or a 1073DPD. It also provides monitor control and headphone amps.

This would be a dramatic upgrade from what you've been using, it does everything you want -- you need a new interface in any event -- and it integrates directly with the Logic software. It's practically a no-brainer.

A Rosetta 800 setup is going to cost you almost twice as much by the time you add the Firewire card (or some other interface) and a monitor controller -- and you won't have any preamps. At the point you're at right now, I don't know how much you'll really be able to tell the difference, and you really need to balance the preamp purchases with the converter purchases. Once you get into a decent converter situation, it doesn't make sense to spend a huge percentage of your budget on converters.

JSL

[solarium99]

Thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts.

[solarium99]

One common thought seems to be that I shouldn't be looking at high-end converters until I have developed the rest of my studio. I am trying to understand why this is the case.

I know the biggest limitation I have right now is my recording space. There is no plausible way I could record a live group or even a live drum kit given the limits of my room. Therefore, my thought was that I could invest in 2-4 pristine channels for smaller tasks. Although, units like the Ensemble fit the bill, I have read that the quality is nowhere near as good as the higher end Apogee or Lavry Blue.

Am I basing my decisions upon going out and hearing the units in question? No. Will the Ensemble be a lot better than what I have now? Yes. But still, if my biggest concern is pristine quailty and I don't mind saving like a madman to buy a better converter, why shouldn't I be looking at the units I first mentioned? I know that I will not have a complete studio immediately - and that it may take years to build the complete picture - but I feel like if I skimp in the beginning I will continue this trend with the rest of the gear. (for instance, why spend money on expensive outboard when my DA is just OK.)

I'm being provocative, although I'm not sure I'm right on all this. That's why I posted in the first place: to gather opinions. Bottom line, I am willing to save over time to buy gear. Furthermore, I would rather buy something amazing so I can focus on music-making and not worry about whether I should be upgrading my Ensemble after 6 months. Just some thoughts..

Joe

[Pohaku]

I think you are getting that response because the conventional wisdom is that it is more cost effective to upgrade other parts of your setup before upgrading converters. The impact of treating your room, getting better microphones and better preamps (in that order) is more significant to your sound than getting better converters. Now there are those that disagree with this approach, but it seems that if there are competing uses for the money, you will have a bigger impact on your sound by spending it on one of the other three components first rather than on converters. Ultimately though, what you buy and in what order will be tailored to your individual situation. I doubt that many would disagree (particularly in high end) that it pays to buy the best you can, even if you have to save for it, rather than endlessly upgrade prosumer gear.

Great sport, eh?

[Sam Lord]

If I were buying *today*, I'd look at Lavry Blues with micpre modules (great rep), and the Prism Orpheus (talk about drooling...):
Orpheus Recording Interface Home Page

[raydo]

i have / use 8 channels of Lavry Blue 6AD and 2DA for monitoring and tracking

+ Aurora 8 clocked to the Lavry for I/O

Lavrys - wider ,deeper and very detailed have more headroom and the clock is of the best i used
on par with UA2192

The Aurora 8 is probably the best bang for the buck out there , it is creamy "hagen-daz" smooth and forgiving however be careful tracking if you really push them

Buy the Lavry's - you will hear everything

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by solarium99

One common thought seems to be that I shouldn't be looking at high-end converters until I have developed the rest of my studio. I am trying to understand why this is the case.

Okay, let me try to give it a shot.

Looking at the Atlas web site, a Lavry 4-in-2-out system will run you $3375. It includes no DAW interface, no monitor control and no preamps.

Functionally speaking (leaving quality aside), the Ensemble gives you those same four ADC inputs, plus four additional inputs with four mic pres and two DI's. It gives you the DAW interface with 18 ins and outs, the Logic integration, the monitor control, the headphone amps.

Assuming you buy the Lavry 4/2 instead, it's going to cost you over $1000 just to replace Ensemble's preamps, another $600 for a comparable DAW interface (with headphone amp) and at least $100 for a basic attenuator for your monitors. In other words, by the time you make up for not buying the Ensemble, you might as well just buy the Ensemble anyway. (You could make the same argument for the RME Fireface except that its preamps are not remotely in the same discussion.) So that's the first point.

The second point would be that until you get the rest of your system in order -- your engineering skills, the acoustics, the mics and preamps -- the difference between Lavry Blue and Apogee Ensemble would be absolutely insignificant. I don't mean in a patronizing way, I mean literally, sonically, insignificant. (Hell, you could probably find some people to tell you that it's going to be fairly insignificant anyway.)

The third point would be that all digital technology depreciates relatively quickly. The Apogee AD-8000's out there for $1000 used to go for $5000-plus -- and worth every penny, at that time. The Ensemble may not hold its value any better than the Lavry/Rosetta grade of stuff, but it's got a lot less far to fall.

Look at it this way ... you're about to make a terrible investment. Do you want to invest $2000 or $6000?

And again, I'm only putting it that way because I don't think it's going to make a difference in the quality of your work. And again, I'm only saying that because I believe -- and you have said -- that it's going to be several years before your studio is all together, at a point where you can evaluate and really tell the difference.

And how much do you think a Rosetta 800 is going to be going for in a few years? You see where I'm headed with this? I'll make a prediction right here: In four years, an Ensemble's resale value will be higher than a Rosetta 800. The march of technology will make commodity items out of both units in terms of digital conversion, but the Ensemble has the preamps, too.

So there's my reasoning right there. I think you literally won't see any difference in sound quality given your situation for the next couple years. You will not need to upgrade in six months, unless it's just to placate your ego. And when -- if -- you go to upgrade in a few years, better and cheaper options will be at hand.

And why make such a big deal about upgrading later? We all upgrade later.

JSL

[Pohaku]

If I was running a Mac and Logic, I'd really be looking closely at the Ensemble. It really looks like a pretty good package to me and the price is right. Apogee's pres are quite respectable. I'm using a PC platform, Sonar, NHT Pro A-10/sub monitors, 14 channels of pretty good preamps (API, P-1, Purple Biz, Pendulum, Millennia, VMP-2, RNP, GT MP-1), and somewhere in the vicinity of 90 mics of various persuasions, so the Lynx approach makes sense for me at this point in time. IMHO Dr. Levin's argument is pretty persuasive. The system components that will depreciate most quickly, whose utility is most dependent on the quality of the other parts of your rig, and which are most subject to obsolescence are your converters. They aren't where I would start if I was generally upgrading my rig. In my case, they were the last component to be upgraded (although I'm sure I could be convinced to buy another mic or pre or two or three).

[stagefright13]

Don't waste your money! I have awesome sound at 24 bit but sounds like chit when I convert to mp3. You likely have a good system already. It will mostly depend on the players... Unfortunately I can't give samples of them.
And logic sucks! they sold out to Apple. I used to use it and still have it. Great graphics tho! But hard to use compared to Protools. But I loved the look. Those Germans are great on graphics! But is MAC now so useless to me... The graphics in Logic were initially made in Germany. Now Apple USA copies them...

[stagefright13]

Sorry for the rant. I rent Apogee for big jobs but truthfully If ya need nice converters at 44.1 or 48 for video the tango 24. Works great. Just keep it cool. The apogee's DO have an advantage on clarity. Well YES they are better but...

[Mats]

Originally Posted by jslevin

Okay, let me try to give it a shot.

Looking at the Atlas web site, a Lavry 4-in-2-out system will run you $3375. It includes no DAW interface, no monitor control and no preamps.

Functionally speaking (leaving quality aside), the Ensemble gives you those same four ADC inputs, plus four additional inputs with four mic pres and two DI's. It gives you the DAW interface with 18 ins and outs, the Logic integration, the monitor control, the headphone amps.

Assuming you buy the Lavry 4/2 instead, it's going to cost you over $1000 just to replace Ensemble's preamps, another $600 for a comparable DAW interface (with headphone amp) and at least $100 for a basic attenuator for your monitors. In other words, by the time you make up for not buying the Ensemble, you might as well just buy the Ensemble anyway. (You could make the same argument for the RME Fireface except that its preamps are not remotely in the same discussion.) So that's the first point.

The second point would be that until you get the rest of your system in order -- your engineering skills, the acoustics, the mics and preamps -- the difference between Lavry Blue and Apogee Ensemble would be absolutely insignificant. I don't mean in a patronizing way, I mean literally, sonically, insignificant. (Hell, you could probably find some people to tell you that it's going to be fairly insignificant anyway.)

The third point would be that all digital technology depreciates relatively quickly. The Apogee AD-8000's out there for $1000 used to go for $5000-plus -- and worth every penny, at that time. The Ensemble may not hold its value any better than the Lavry/Rosetta grade of stuff, but it's got a lot less far to fall.

Look at it this way ... you're about to make a terrible investment. Do you want to invest $2000 or $6000?

And again, I'm only putting it that way because I don't think it's going to make a difference in the quality of your work. And again, I'm only saying that because I believe -- and you have said -- that it's going to be several years before your studio is all together, at a point where you can evaluate and really tell the difference.

And how much do you think a Rosetta 800 is going to be going for in a few years? You see where I'm headed with this? I'll make a prediction right here: In four years, an Ensemble's resale value will be higher than a Rosetta 800. The march of technology will make commodity items out of both units in terms of digital conversion, but the Ensemble has the preamps, too.

So there's my reasoning right there. I think you literally won't see any difference in sound quality given your situation for the next couple years. You will not need to upgrade in six months, unless it's just to placate your ego. And when -- if -- you go to upgrade in a few years, better and cheaper options will be at hand.

And why make such a big deal about upgrading later? We all upgrade later.

JSL

I totally agree. I would in your situation, get a good mic, preamp, monitors first, since they can stand the test of time. They will probably still be great in 20 years. After that, i would invest in the ad/da´s.

[Andrew Kinsey]

It is often said on this forum that everything else in the chain should come first before looking at better converters.

This is not logical in many respects and sort of defeats the point of buying High End gear in the first place. Whats the point of investing money into nice sounding analog gear if your AD conversion isn't doing the gear justice?

Likewise with the DA conversion, you can treat your room and buy nice monitors but if the signal going to your speakers from the DA converter is masked in any way you still wont be hearing an accurate reproduction.

IMHO converters are at the heart of any studio and ulimately dictate the overall sound quality of your music. They are also the one piece of gear that are used day in and day out no matter what mic you use or preamp. The same cannot be said for many other pieces of gear.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

IMHO converters are at the heart of any studio and ulimately dictate the overall sound quality of your music. They are also the one piece of gear that are used day in and day out no matter what mic you use or preamp. The same cannot be said for many other pieces of gear.

I agree.

Converters and monitors are basic, and will make a huge difference in the quality of your music and your enjoyment in the studio. With poor converters and monitors, you are always, day-in-and-day-out, trying to somehow compensate to get what you want to hear. You never get there................but you waste a lot of time trying.

If you can swing the Lavry Blues, then you can forget worrying about converters from here on out and focus on other things. If not, go with the best you can afford.

[solarium99]

Thanks for all the thoughts... I'm still weighing the importance of converters in my new setup.

If I go for the Lavry, what else do I need to buy to get it up and running? Obviously pres and an interface to the computer, but what about heaphone outs and the monitor attentuation? Just trying to get a clearer picture of the chain needed to utilize the Lavry's effectively. It's obviously a bit more complex then just getting the Ensemble!

Joe

[pollyserial]

Originally Posted by Mike H

With poor converters and monitors, you are always, day-in-and-day-out, trying to somehow compensate to get what you want to hear. You never get there................but you waste a lot of time trying.

I wouldn't say that the Ensemble is poor converters!! And the advantage, mentioned above, I think, is that you get totally serviceable conversion, serviceable preamps, and you have enough money left over (assuming option 2 is buying lavry converters) to get some halfway decent monitors. As another decent option, I'd also look at Metric Halo. You can make great recordings with either of those.

The other thing about converters is, they tend to lose value more quickly/need to be upgraded more often than monitors, microphones or preamps. Which is why to me it makes sense to spend money getting the rest of the signal chain right first; if you spend everything on conversion and need to scrimp and save for three years to get the rest of it together, it'll be time to upgrade conversion before you ever get a chance to use it the way it's supposed to be used. Whereas, decent mics, preamps and monitors will be with you as long as you keep working....and if you do decide to move on, you can usually get back a decent chunk of what you paid for them.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by pollyserial

The other thing about converters is, they tend to lose value more quickly/need to be upgraded more often than monitors, microphones or preamps.

With all due respect, I don't believe top quality DAC's need to be replaced frequently today.

This was true during the transition period when converters were pretty horrible and improvements were being made fairly frequently. But the top converters today are pretty darn accurate in reproducing what you hear in analog.

I have lots of Lavry Blue DAC's, and I have a pair of Lavry Gold ADC's (which replaced a pair of Blues). I spent the money for the Golds, but I don't think the incremental cost/benefit ratio makes financial sense for many home studio guys. There is a clear difference when you A/B Blue versus Gold, and I absolutely love the Gold ADC's for transferring the final mix to DAW..................but the Blues are very good, indeed.

I certainly have no expectation of upgrading the Blue DAC's to anything else, period. I would see purchase of Blues as something you can use for a long time.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by pollyserial

The other thing about converters is, they tend to lose value more quickly/need to be upgraded more often than monitors, microphones or preamps. .

Also don't agree, as the Pacific Microsonics design is almost 10 years old, and there is still basically nothing out there much better (if any better).


I would buy a Lynx Aurora and never look back. Room to expand into an HD system if you want, and they seriously sound really good, especially for the money. I feel like if your recordings are still coming out poor, time to look elsewhere. I find them to have loads of headroom, you can do a -10 rms master (clipping the crap out of the front end) and you won't hear distortion. *



*Bang taught me this. Thanks Steven!

[loudmusic25]

I'm using the Lynx Aurora 16 with a Big Ben and am very happy. Also using a Great River an API 3124 and sometimes a 737 for Pre's

[sharky]

Originally Posted by jslevin

Honestly, as you describe your situation, I really would try out the Apogee Ensemble. It gives you eight channels of conversion, four far better mic preamps than you've been using, and four direct line inputs for the other mic pres that you want to buy. You can also add a two-channel preamp with ADC at some point, like an API A2D or a 1073DPD. It also provides monitor control and headphone amps.

+1 for the Ensemble. And then get the API straight away (when the funds allow). I don't have that particular piece of kit (the API A2D) myself, but I use my SCA API-ish pre extensively. The best all around pre in my opinion is an API. Between that and the Ensemble pres (which are nice!) I think you will have a lot of applications covered. Maybe look into a Neve flavor instead, if that's more your cup of tea. You're probably gonna want both! And that will only be the beginning!

BTW, instead of getting the API A2D maybe get a lunchbox with an API pre or two. Not sure of the price difference, but if you get the Ensemble you'll already have 8 pretty damn fine converters. I'd put the money into the pre's.

[sharky]

Originally Posted by solarium99

I hope this hasn't been too long-winded or scattered - I am just confused and want to solicit advice from those who have been here before. I am looking for the highest possible quality within this price range, with the most options for expansion later. (Or should I even be worrying about expansion?) Any thoughts much appreciated!

Joe

Oh and just to clarify a bit on my above post: This is what I tell all my musician friends who ask me about starting a high-end rig for their home or project studio. These are guys who are generally tracking vox, acoustic git., electric git and bass (i.e. NOT a full drum kit, etc.)

1. Get an SM7
2. Get an API pre or a Neve-ish pre. Preferably one with a DI.
3. Get some decent conversion. I like Apogee. If you're on a Mac the new Duet is pretty intriguing.
4. If you know what you're up to in compressor land get a Distressor or a Really Nice Compressor. If you don't skip it and use your DAW's plugin compressors to learn on AND DON'T compress on the way in!
5. Pick your DAW. If you like PC's check out Reaper or Cubase. If you're on a Mac check out Logic.
6. If you can swing it, a UAD card is a hell of a lot of bang for the buck.
7. Start recording bitchin' tracks.
8. Start saving because you are going to want more gear. And it ain't cheap!

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

IMHO converters are at the heart of any studio and ulimately dictate the overall sound quality of your music.

I have to be blunt about this -- anyone who thinks converters are the "heart" (or most important piece) of a studio setup doesn't have ears. The converter dictates the sound quality ultimately? Not the mic? Not the analog signal path? Not the engineer?

You need to get your head out of the spec sheets, friend, because your advice is terrible. Not one engineer I respect has ever said anything remotely like this.

Seven years ago, almost nobody was using converters as good as the Ensemble is today. The idea that anything but the most expensive piece available is "masking" the sound or "not doing it justice" is just asinine. Once you have a very good converter system, upgrading mics and moving into boutique pres will do ten times more for your sound quality than incremental improvements in converters.

I suggest you lay off the advice for a while, leave it to people who have some clue what the hell they're talking about.

JSL

[WATYF]

Just wanted to throw another option in... for about 5K, you can get a used Cranesong Spider. 8 channels of excellent pres. 10 channels of excellent A/D. Plus tape emulation on every channel and a few other nice features.

WATYF