Wich pre to a Folcrom?

[Kim Bjäle]

Hello. I`m thinking of buying an RMS Folcrom and I was wondering if you slutz got any suggestion on a good preamp for the sum. I`m thinking of maybe a Neve 1073 DPA or a Vintagedesign DMP, what do you think?

[nemisis633]

I had really good luck with a Buzz Audio MA 2.2 TX. Another clear favorite was the Great River NV. Honestly, I think your going to have to do a shoot out among several pre's in this situation. A lot of times, a color that you like won't slap well across your entire mix. As always YMMV.

Cheers,
Jon

[Andrew Kinsey]

Neve 1073 or 1272 if your looking for an authentic Neve sound. You would still need a 1073/1084 on each input stage to get as close as the real deal as possible!

I personally like the transparent / open sounding preamps for summing, ive had alot of joy using the LavryBlue preamp for this.

The problem with some preamps that get distorted is that they can make the mix sound thin and not very big compared to the transparent ones.

[Fletcher]

I generally use the MP-2NV as I can also run stuff like the EQ-2NV off the insert point and kinda "master" the stuff that is returning through the Folcrom on it's way out to join the rest of the mix.

Best of luck with your search!!

[The Kamillion]

wow. I was just going to ask this same question. secondly I was going to ask. are u folcrom users REALLY glad you purchased this as opposed to one of the more expensive summing boxes? i'm torn. my gut keeps telling me go with one of the more expensive boxes - especially for the ability to insert on each channel. but the reality is - it will be at least 2k difference.
i'm willing to pay it if I HEAR a 2k difference.

if not...

[The Kamillion]

anybody tried a pacifica with a folcrom?

[ulysses]

are u folcrom users REALLY glad you purchased this as opposed to one of the more expensive summing boxes? i'm torn. my gut keeps telling me go with one of the more expensive boxes

I probably shouldn't stick my head into this, since you're looking for unbiased user experience and I'm as biased as it gets. But I've dealt with a few people who think the Folcrom must somehow be inferior based on the fact that it costs less, and that concept bothers me so I'd like to chime in briefly.

I designed the Folcrom for a guy who was willing to spend $3500 on a summing device. I designed what I believe to be a really very good solution and I don't find it lacking in any way (that's a matter of opinion, I realize). I couldn't justify charging the original customer (or any of the hundreds of subsequent customers) $3500, not because it is somehow lacking, but because that kind of pricetag wouldn't be commensurate with what goes into producing the product. But I didn't leave out all the amplifiers, knobs, and power supply in order to keep the cost down. I eliminated those components from the design because they stood in the way of optimal performance and usefulness of the circuit. This particular product works best with a very short, clean signal path. That approach turned out to not cost a lot. I like to think of it as a win-win situation. The simplicity of the circuit, chosen for audio quality as well as utility, allows for a lower selling price. Sure, somebody could take the same basic product and stick a hundred bucks worth of silicon in there and sell it for double or triple the money. But will that make it sound better? I don't think so. I think just the opposite.

A very simple way of looking at it is that I simply left out the parts you already had - your mike preamps. I could have designed them into my box, but my friend Dan already makes pretty nice ones, so I figured you could just use those. As Fletcher said, they work pretty well. My biased advice: If spending more money will make you feel better, then add another mike preamp to your order.

especially for the ability to insert on each channel.

This has come up before, but I'd like to reiterate the uselessness of "inserting" processors between connectors. Inserts are useful for applying processing between various stages within a circuit - like inserting a compressor between the mike preamp and the equalizer of a mixer's input channels, for example. The insert is necessary there because the compressor wouldn't be useful before the mike preamp. In the case of a summing device, there ARE NO processing circuits between the inputs and the summing devices. So there's nothing to insert "between." See what I mean? It's like circular logic. There's nothing to get "past" with the insert. In this scenario, you already have a great insert point. It's your patchbay. You can insert any processing you like on individual channels on the way into the Folcrom (or any other summing device). It is literally not different in any way from "inserting" after the input connectors on the box. You simply save a few hundred dollars' worth of cabling and connectors that would not have been performing any function at all.

[The Kamillion]

Originally Posted by ulysses

I probably shouldn't stick my head into this, since you're looking for unbiased user experience and I'm as biased as it gets. But I've dealt with a few people who think the Folcrom must somehow be inferior based on the fact that it costs less, and it really bothers me so I'd like to chime in briefly.

I designed the Folcrom for a guy who was willing to spend $3500 on a summing device. I designed what I believe to be a really very good solution and I don't find it lacking in any way (that's a matter of opinion, I realize). I couldn't justify charging the original customer (or any of the hundreds and hundreds of subsequent customers) $3500, not because it is somehow lacking, but because that kind of pricetag wouldn't be commensurate with what goes into producing the product. But I didn't leave out all the amplifiers, knobs, and power supply in order to keep the cost down. I eliminated those components from the design because they stood in the way of optimal performance of this product. This particular product works best with a very short, clean signal path. That approach turned out to not cost a lot. I like to think of it as a win-win situation. Sure, somebody could take the same basic product and stick a hundred bucks worth of silicon in there and sell it for double or triple the money. But will that make it sound better? I don't think so. I think just the opposite.

A very simple way of looking at it is that I simply left out the parts you already had - your mike preamps. I could have designed them into my box, but my friend Dan already makes pretty nice ones, so I figured you could just use those. As Fletcher said, they work pretty well.


This has come up before, but I'd like to reiterate the uselessness of "inserting" processors between connectors. Inserts are useful for applying processing between various stages within a circuit - like inserting a compressor between the mike preamp and the equalizer of a mixer's input channels, for example. The insert is necessary there because the compressor wouldn't be useful before the mike preamp. In the case of a summing device, there ARE NO processing circuits between the inputs and the summing devices. So there's nothing to insert "between." See what I mean? It's like circular logic. There's nothing to get "past" with the insert. In this scenario, you already have a great insert point. It's your patchbay. You can insert any processing you like on individual channels on the way into the Folcrom (or any other summing device). It is literally not different in any way from "inserting" after the input connectors on the box. You simply save a few hundred dollars' worth of cabling and connectors that would not have been performing any function at all.

understood ulysses. it is obviously a great piece of gear since so many people use it and love it. and i commend u for that. but again as u mentioned - u are as biassed as it gets with this particular piece of gear.
the issue that im torn with is - i have discovered more recently - that when it comes to MY setup - everything-eq's dynamics etc. sounds better OTB. as u've eloquently stated - the folcrom is a no frills box that does what it was designed to do. but at the same time it forces you (good or bad) to rely on your ITB tools - the ones that i've already determined don't sound as good as conventional OTB stuff. and with the new toys on the market - the ones that more closely resemble a mixer - i'm thinking i may benefit from that.

the question remains - is there a 2-3k(or more) difference?
i was hping someone had experience with both and could shed some light...

[diamondjim]

Originally Posted by The Kamillion

wow. I was just going to ask this same question. secondly I was going to ask. are u folcrom users REALLY glad you purchased this as opposed to one of the more expensive summing boxes? i'm torn. my gut keeps telling me go with one of the more expensive boxes - especially for the ability to insert on each channel. but the reality is - it will be at least 2k difference.
i'm willing to pay it if I HEAR a 2k difference.

if not...

I am using the Folcrom with an API A2D or ADL 600 as makeup gain. The ability to choose your "flavor" makes this unit the best overall choice for me. If you don't have a decent 2 channel pre why waste your money on a dedicated summing box with amps built in? You can get a Folcrom and still have enough left over for a Great River, Pacifica, ADL 600, etc. If you do, then why not use it and get a 2nd or 3rd, etc. for different uses?

[The Kamillion]

Originally Posted by diamondjim

I am using the Folcrom with an API A2D or ADL 600 as makeup gain. The ability to choose your "flavor" makes this unit the best overall choice for me. If you don't have a decent 2 channel pre why waste your money on a dedicated summing box with amps built in? You can get a Folcrom and still have enough left over for a Great River, Pacifica, ADL 600, etc. If you do, then why not use it and get a 2nd or 3rd, etc. for different uses?

i guess that kinda does it for me. the flavor choice option. because we all know - in 5 years there's gonna be some kickazz pre (probably from A-designsthumbsup) that im gonna want - and i'll be able to smack the thing across the stereo. if i get the chandler or neve box - everything i do will sound...nevey. not that it would be bad - but not being able to change is NOT good. after all - i am the Kamillion.

[matta]

[quote]the folcrom is a no frills box that does what it was designed to do. but at the same time it forces you (good or bad) to rely on your ITB tools - the ones that i've already determined don't sound as good as conventional OTB stuff. and with the new toys on the market - the ones that more closely resemble a mixer - i'm thinking i may benefit from that.[quote]

Um, what you need then IS a mixer... not a summing unit, by your definition above... I think folks get confused between the 2...

I think Justin's box is very nifty and well thought out and offers just what it offers. The more expensive boxes offer 'a' sound because many/most/all of them are electronically couple, be it with high quality chip designs ala the Dangerous 2Buss or Discrete Ala the Tonebuss... with the Folcom, you have the OPTION to pick your poison so to speak.

not that it would be bad - but not being able to change is NOT good.

Limitations can and do often do breed ingenuity. in days gone by you were 'stuck' with summing buss on your console of choice and many a great record was made that way... just something to think about

Cheers

Matt

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by The Kamillion

anybody tried a pacifica with a folcrom?

The Pacifica sounds great!

[crypticglobe]

I was really, really happy with my folcroms. I used them with a pair of germaniums, and then alternately with my 8 pack of SCA pre's (a pair of everything they make).

Favs were the germaniums, N72's, and J99's (sounded VERY SSL-ish).

Only reason I sold them was because we put an Amek Mozart console in the studio.

I tried most all the summing busses out there... with great pre's you have as good (if not better) than anthing out there.

jmtc....

[ulysses]

Originally Posted by matta

Um, what you need then IS a mixer... not a summing unit, by your definition above... I think folks get confused between the 2...

Yes, as much as I like selling Folcrii, I spend a lot of time coaching people on the difference between a summing device and a mixer, and why you'd want one as opposed to the other. I don't think it would do me any good to sell somebody a Folcrom when what they really need is a mixer. It would just leave them disappointed in my product, and that's not good business.

If the kind of analog tools you need are the kind found in a console, there's a strong argument for having a console. If, on the other hand, The Kamillion is just talking about patching in his pre-owned outboard gear, then the Folcrom and a patchbay will do you just fine. This is all about deciding what YOU need for YOUR workflow, and choosing your tools accordingly. All the user endorsements in the world won't make an arcwelder useful to a craftsman who builds with wood.

[jchadstopherhuez]

if i can't mix on a desk.....for my money...the folcrum is the ONLY way to go if you want to get "out of the box"

for what its worth, i have had great luck recently using my daking pre/eq's as makeup gain for the folcrum. i really dig being able to just switch out my makeup preamps and change the "character" of my "summing mixer"

have had alot of luck with neve 1272's, trident s20, manley dual tube preamps, sytek and even a pair of old altec 1567a's....pretty cool sound there.

the folcrum is a wonderfully simple, yet brilliant solution. if you have sunk $$$ into some high end pres...put em to work when you mix !!!

i have a pair of chandler germaniums coming...anxious to throw a mix out to the folcrum using the chandlers....!!!

rock

jchristopherhughes

[raal]

Originally Posted by Kim Bjäle

Hello. I`m thinking of buying an RMS Folcrom and I was wondering if you slutz got any suggestion on a good preamp for the sum. I`m thinking of maybe a Neve 1073 DPA or a Vintagedesign DMP, what do you think?

the good thing about a folcrom is you can always change your mind. whatever you put at the end of it is gonna be your sound. DPA or DMP doesn't do it for you? change them. that simple.

recently i've used Flamingo or SH Gama, because they both give you different options without having to repatch anything. the pres you're considering could easily do the trick for you, or not. the cool thing is it doesn't matter. if you have several pres it's a no brainer. if you don't have several pres, it's a no brainer.

Originally Posted by ulysses

I don't think it would do me any good to sell somebody a Folcrom when what they really need is a mixer.

true. like it wouldn't be good to sell them a compressor if what they need is an EQ, but if what they need is a summing box for parallel stuff (my case), or for stuff to be half normalled to X amount of inputs (my case), or because they think external summing somehow magically fixes DAW's 'bad math' (not my case), i can't see anything wrong with selling them a Folcrom. good product IMHO.

[zimv20]

i don't have an extensive pre collection, but my brent averill 312a's get nearly all the makeup duty.

i think eventually i will get some kind of board/desk, likely the toft atb, but i'll probably keep the folcrom for extra inputs.

[Kim Bjäle]

Thanx alot guys for the quick answer! I think I`ll go with a Folcrom. I like the idea of changing the sound character depending on what kind of mix I work with. I`m thinking a Thermionic Culture Pullet and maybe a RMS Super stereo comp or something like that can giva a good final stage. hmmm...Just have to sell my car and get a good explenation to my other half.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Kim Bjäle

I`m thinking a Thermionic Culture Pullet and maybe a RMS Super stereo comp or something like that can giva a good final stage. hmmm...Just have to sell my car and get a good explenation to my other half.

suggestion:

if $ is an issue you could always work a little harder to get your mix to the point where comp and EQ aren't all that necessary at the final stage. it's been done before ya know... and let an ME do the cherry on top. if you insist on doing your own mastering, get the comp 1st, try parallel so it sounds more natural, and leave the EQ (as in buying) for the very end... or maybe a used fatso for both 'EQ' (note quotation marks) and a little compression at the end. also good for mutliple chores like tracking, final cherry ontop, or drum sub if you let an ME put the cherry ontop. hope this last part made some sense. i'm tiiiired.

[TML]

Originally Posted by mixman499

if i can't mix on a desk.....for my money...the folcrum is the ONLY way to go if you want to get "out of the box"

for what its worth, i have had great luck recently using my daking pre/eq's as makeup gain for the folcrum. i really dig being able to just switch out my makeup preamps and change the "character" of my "summing mixer"

have had alot of luck with neve 1272's, trident s20, manley dual tube preamps, sytek and even a pair of old altec 1567a's....pretty cool sound there.

the folcrum is a wonderfully simple, yet brilliant solution. if you have sunk $$$ into some high end pres...put em to work when you mix !!!

i have a pair of chandler germaniums coming...anxious to throw a mix out to the folcrum using the chandlers....!!!

rock

jchristopherhughes

I second this. The dak's workd. YOu can add alittle top and bottom. Nice!
Tim

[BlakeMcKibben]

A fool can make something complicated, the folcrom is simple genius. I like my TG-2 for make-up gain, but sometimes yearn for a cleaner more present, less creamy sound. Maybe SSL or Daking would be a good option. But if it's a rocker the TG-2 sure does the trick.

[Kim Bjäle]

Originally Posted by raal

suggestion:

if $ is an issue you could always work a little harder to get your mix to the point where comp and EQ aren't all that necessary at the final stage. it's been done before ya know... and let an ME do the cherry on top. if you insist on doing your own mastering, get the comp 1st, try parallel so it sounds more natural, and leave the EQ (as in buying) for the very end... or maybe a used fatso for both 'EQ' (note quotation marks) and a little compression at the end. also good for mutliple chores like tracking, final cherry ontop, or drum sub if you let an ME put the cherry ontop. hope this last part made some sense. i'm tiiiired.

Well I do most of my mixing on an SSL 4048E/G+ and I find it actually to work best with a little bit of the comp on the board and the Avalon EQ we`ve got on the final stage so I´m thinking that a hardware eq and comp would make it sound "slick" combined with my UAD-1 and Liquid Mix, or? I`ve gor a limited budget so I don`t know...hmm... I don`t think the fatsos will do what I asked for but thanx anyhow...

[Kim Bjäle]

Originally Posted by Kim Bjäle

Well I do most of my mixing on an SSL 4048E/G+ and I find it actually to work best with a little bit of the comp on the board and the Avalon EQ we`ve got on the final stage so I´m thinking that a hardware eq and comp would make it sound "slick" combined with my UAD-1 and Liquid Mix, or? I`ve gor a limited budget so I don`t know...hmm... I don`t think the fatsos will do what I asked for but thanx anyhow...

And yeah, I`ve work with a lot of major stuff here in Sweden so...

[Chris Parsons]

The Great River adds something great to a mix.

[it's a Pleasure]

2nd the Great River as well...A friend built me a folcrum-esc devise into my patchbay, I sold my 8816 and I couldn't be happier.

I've got a TG-2, 3124 and a pair of elixirs, but the Great River is always 1st call.

[lukejs]

Just wondering.... if it's not the "bad math" that is causing digital mixes to sound less steller, couldn't you just sum in the box, and stick something like an ATTY on your mix bus, and then bring it back up with a pre amp of choice to get the character you want on your mix buss ? ( just an idea... don't flame me too much...I'm just a beginner !! )

[ulysses]

That's a popular theory lately among people who haven't actually used analog summing as a real production method. I don't see people selling their summing devices in favor of this approach, and I think the jury's still out on what exactly is making all these analog summing guys so happy after struggling for so long with their ITB mixes.

[raal]

Originally Posted by lukejs

Just wondering.... if it's not the "bad math" that is causing digital mixes to sound less steller, couldn't you just sum in the box, and stick something like an ATTY on your mix bus, and then bring it back up with a pre amp of choice to get the character you want on your mix buss?

my answer to that would be yes, and the ATTY wouldn't be necessary in many cases.

the only reason i use a Folcrom is for parallel analog compression stems, which are not compensated for by ADC.

do a search on Paul Frindle on this forum and PSW. his comments on ITB/OTB summing are very enlightening and go along way to dispell the 'bad math' folclore. at least they did for me.

[janek 68]

I.m considering Folcrom as summing device especially after testing Germanium comps on 2-bus.They gave this vintage feel which i like , mix controll gives openess in sound while germanium drive drives unit to small amont of dirt/mojo known from 70`s records.So the question for me is also which pre? clean or dirtier? any tips?

p.s Germanium comps in comparison to Portico 5043 sound HUGE! and more dimensional...

[raal]

Originally Posted by janek 68

So the question for me is also which pre? clean or dirtier? any tips?

i usually have SH Gamas at the end of the Folcrom. 3 sounds to pick from, no patching. Cranesong Flamingo is also a good option if you want some flexibility.