Why can no one make gear anymore that sounds better just running through it?

[thethrillfactor]

I know this thread is probably destined for the Moan Zone or something but ....

Over the last few years i've tried alot of different new things but i just don't hear it.

In looking over my racks of gear a majority of the gear was made before 1990. I just don't get it. I am currently looking for a modern EQ that i can use on the stereo buss or vocals when needed that makes things bigger and more pleasing to the ear even when running in bypass and for the life of me i cannot find it. Same goes for the comps.

I know i haven't tried everything out there that's made these days. Actually i am more and more reluctant to. But it seems the newer stuff just gives you one sound and if its not a sound that you like you can't really use it. I mean if a Neve 2254 is the wrong compressor for the mixbuss i can run it in bypass and get something pleasing running through it. Same goes for a Pultec EQ or an original 1176 or La2a. I can do the same with an AMS DMX 1580 or a Lexicon PCM42.

And i hear people say the argument "well it takes months to get used to what it can do" but i am sorry i totally disagree. I know right away if an La3a is right for a vocal or a Gates Sta Level. I know if a 1081 or 31102 will work for the drums. Its not rocket science with this stuff. It either sounds good or it doesn't.

Is it that everything is RoHS compliant and the designers haven't gotten the hang of working with this yet? Is it that everything is made for a certain market or the designers just hear things differently than the users? Maybe its the testers for this stuff? I mean compared to some plug ins any new outboard gear probably sounds extra ordinary.

Or maybe its just me.

[ninjaneer]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Is it that everything is made for a certain market or the designers just hear things differently than the users? Maybe its the testers for this stuff? I mean compared to some plug ins any new outboard gear probably sounds extra ordinary.

i guess the biggest market out there at the moment is happy to have simulations of the
equipment that you've mentioned. a home studio owner is going to be happy to have
replicas of neve or helios or a LA2A so the motivation to go for innovation to maybe a smaller
market share is in this day and age of share holders etc. is going to be hard to justify.

i've never designed a piece of hardware so i don't know how difficult it is to come up with
something sonically innovative but it must be right up there with trying to design a new type of sugar.

have you tried the elysia comp that russ was talking about?
elysia: Studios

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by ninjaneer

have you tried the elysia comp that russ was talking about?
elysia: Studios

Nope and have no plans to in the immediate future.

[superburtm]

frustrating I knowthumbsup

[Brad McGowan]

This may not be the answer you are looking for, but why don't you commission a talented individual or company to design and manufacturer exactly what you are looking for?

Brad

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

This may not be the answer you are looking for, but why don't you commission a talented individual or company to design and manufacturer exactly what you are looking for?

Brad

My tech is making me a stereo Gates Sta Level for the mixbuss with a side chain.

He is building it to the T but its going to take months though. I'll be lucky if its ready a year from now.

An EQ is a different story. So many variables involved.

But still you would think there would be something?

[Cosmic Closet]

There is this old-fashioned thing whereby someone used to start with the idea that quality designed for a purpose was what made great gear. Along with just killer construction so that the idea would last for decades. And then leave the discussions about said gear and what it could or couldn't do amongst those who bought it.

Studer
Neumann
Stellavox
Nagra
Audio Devices
Universal Audio
Microtech Gefell

..and a select number of great compressors and such from the 60es on (you know)
We don't need more choices. We need more quality. More musicianship. More simple appreciation of what a room is and can do.
I am guilty, I am guilty. I love fine gear, but I live in a small apartment. I try to write good songs, and I try to do good demos in my walk-though closet, and I know it won't always work. It is the song. It always is. Much as I hate the idea at times

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Closet

We don't need more choices. We need more quality. More musicianship. More simple appreciation of what a room is and can do.
I am guilty, I am guilty. I love fine gear, but I live in a small apartment. I try to write good songs, and I try to do good demos in my walk-though closet, and I know it won't always work. It is the song. It always is. Much as I hate the idea at times

Well since you went there...

What if the musicianship and craftmanship is there. The songs, the production & the arrangement are special.

But...

It was recorded under not so great conditions with whatever the budget would allow for said production. It ends up in your hands, you the "craftsman".

And you being inspired by said creation want to do everything possible to present it in the "best light".

And you know in your heart you can but are limited or not inspired by tools currently made available to you?

What would you do?

You could settle for the staus quo because you know in the end its the songs that will really capture people. So you settle sonic wise and hope for the best but in the back of your mind & in your heart you know you could have done a greater service.

Or you pursue every possible avenue because you feel connected to the songs. You feel it is your duty and a privilege to do so because projects like these don't come across your lap everyday. You know there is a chance the project could just sit in someone's closet in a box of duplicated CD's or that if there is a sliver of a chance that if it reached the right ears it could "grow wings and fly".

It can find an audience and they could be moved just like you.

Then it was all worth it right? Agonizing over one EQ against the other or the attack/release of the vocal comp or should the piano be more on the left than right.

I personally always hope and shoot for the latter. But more and more these days its the former.

But when that particular project comes you hope to be ready.

[RCM - Ronan]

I was trying to dial some stuff in on one of My EM-PEQ (A designs) and I was actually surprise how much I enjoyed the change in the sound without any boosting or cutting. I am pretty sure its just a really good transformer thing.

[22busy]

ICs

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I know this thread is probably destined for the Moan Zone or something but ....

Over the last few years i've tried alot of different new things but i just don't hear it.

In looking over my racks of gear a majority of the gear was made before 1990. I just don't get it. I am currently looking for a modern EQ that i can use on the stereo buss or vocals when needed that makes things bigger and more pleasing to the ear even when running in bypass and for the life of me i cannot find it. Same goes for the comps.

I know i haven't tried everything out there that's made these days. Actually i am more and more reluctant to. But it seems the newer stuff just gives you one sound and if its not a sound that you like you can't really use it. I mean if a Neve 2254 is the wrong compressor for the mixbuss i can run it in bypass and get something pleasing running through it. Same goes for a Pultec EQ or an original 1176 or La2a. I can do the same with an AMS DMX 1580 or a Lexicon PCM42.

And i hear people say the argument "well it takes months to get used to what it can do" but i am sorry i totally disagree. I know right away if an La3a is right for a vocal or a Gates Sta Level. I know if a 1081 or 31102 will work for the drums. Its not rocket science with this stuff. It either sounds good or it doesn't.

Is it that everything is RoHS compliant and the designers haven't gotten the hang of working with this yet? Is it that everything is made for a certain market or the designers just hear things differently than the users? Maybe its the testers for this stuff? I mean compared to some plug ins any new outboard gear probably sounds extra ordinary.

Or maybe its just me.

You know Thrill it's funny you say that. A few months back I was looking for a 2 buss EQ on the mastering forum and you and I posted a few replies back and forth. As I got to thinking about it then and I realized that I have the same feeling that you are talking about above.

I DO NOT think it has a lick to do with the RoHS stuff at all. That is pretty new and most of the gear out there today was designed well before it came into effect.

Anyway I want hardware that makes my tracks glow. I don't know how to explain it and I don't think I need to because you already know what I am talking about.

1176 comps do this, old first generation David Hill designed Summit Audio gear does this, Pultec EQ's do this but not much new stuff does it.

The Great River MP-2NV is pretty cool in this department and pretty much anything from Dave Hill / Crane Song is as well. The New Germ stuff from Chandler is trying to be along these lines, I love my Portico stuff so far and I have heard great things about the A Designs 500 series EQ but other than that most stuff is pretty boring now days.

Is it that the manufactures are just playing it safe? Are the transformers just not as good? Wish I knew but I do agree, things are a little on the dull side. I have been planning on getting some of my own stuff going here, I think it would be pretty radical because I like crazy sh*t for mojo and tone but I haven't been able to fine a designer to work with me on the ideas and I have not had time to track anything down.

Anyway, I feel ya bro... I am in the same boat.

[FossilTooth]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I am currently looking for a modern EQ that i can use on the stereo buss or vocals when needed that makes things bigger and more pleasing to the ear even when running in bypass and for the life of me i cannot find it

Manley Massive Passive.

Bam.

Done.

I put a kick drum through one the other week, saying to myself "Damn, this is gonna need a lot of work."

Patched in the Manley and thought: "...well, I guess it's not that bad after all!"

[malaclypse]

i hear the new chandler gear is really nice...

[RecTeach]

Running anything through the CS IBIS completely flat and it will gently widen the stereo image. I put it on the 2 bus even when I'm not using the EQ section.

[u b k]

maybe you just need to wait for the new stuff to age? even when recapped and brought up to spec, there're still a lot of old things in a pultec that the signal passes thru.

i get a smile from the effect of the nicerizer doing nothing but passing signal. that peach tube pre is a hell of a sweetener, esp. with the crazy lowpass circuit set so that it's lowpassing nothing and adding stuff up around 16k, creamy good tube stuff at that.

eq? tried the phoenix passive? is it even available anymore? i like fearn too, but that may a bit sparkly/shimmery for you, it sounds like you like things a little darker/buttery. i really do think that's the oldness at work there.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[imacgreg]

A lot of newer gear has true relay bypass, in which case signal going in is as close to signal coming out as possible. Some gear will let you bypass with or without it being "true relay."

I don't see a whole lot of true bypass in older gear, so just something to think about.

Someone else mentioned transformers not as good; I might agree in some cases, but in other cases it has to do with the transofmers being too good, they are very transparent.

The best sounding designs are those designed by people with great ears.

Ian

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by FossilTooth

Manley Massive Passive.

Bam.

Done.

I put a kick drum through one the other week, saying to myself "Damn, this is gonna need a lot of work."

Patched in the Manley and thought: "...well, I guess it's not that bad after all!"

I've had one for almost 9 years now.

Its one of the few things since 1990 that i've actually liked and haven't sold or traded.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

The Great River MP-2NV is pretty cool in this department and pretty much anything from Dave Hill / Crane Song is as well. The New Germ stuff from Chandler is trying to be along these lines, I love my Portico stuff so far and I have heard great things about the A Designs 500 series EQ but other than that most stuff is pretty boring now days.

I am sorry man but i include some of these manufacturers offerings in the one sound thing.

To me nothing really revolutionary or a situation i would sell something vintage to buy.

My experience has actually been the opposite.

[rufus13]

Originally Posted by imacgreg

A lot of newer gear has true relay bypass, in which case signal going in is as close to signal coming out as possible. Some gear will let you bypass with or without it being "true relay."

I don't see a whole lot of true bypass in older gear, so just something to think about.

Someone else mentioned transformers not as good; I might agree in some cases, but in other cases it has to do with the transofmers being too good, they are very transparent.

The best sounding designs are those designed by people with great ears.

Ian

Has anyone considered that lots of new gear (not only of mid-range and lower aspiration) have a limited ability to drive low-Z inputs or hundreds (thousands is not unheard of) of feet of wire? If you have 600 Ohm (G. F. 150 Ohm) inputs somewhere in the chain of recording/monitoring, or some "fancy" high-capacitance wire, the sound could suffer. Gotta match your technologies and interfaces to get good results!

Good transformers are fine. Last long time. Sounds like nothing.

The best-sounding systems are assembled by people who read all of the literature.

Cheers.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by u b k

, it sounds like you like things a little darker/buttery. i really do think that's the oldness at work there.


.

I've been working out of a recording studio in Long Island. Vintage Neve console 8068 mkII with 32264a's,2254's,metal knob 33609's, real plate reverbs,Emt 251, (8) Pultecs, (4)La3a's, a pair of UA 175's, a pair of blue stripe 1176's, Ba6a, Gates Sta Levels,SA39B,inovonics 201's, Altec Big Red speakers, studer A80, vintage instruments,vinatge mics and bunch of other old gear.

This place even smelled vintage.

There are only 2 outboard pieces there that were made in the 90's(a pair of Distressors & an ADL compressor). Everything in that place is vintage and modified. He reluctantly bought a ProTools system because so many new clients were asking for it.

I brought some of the new pieces on the block(EQ's and compressors) to his place to help me in some mixes.

Dude it was embarassing when i patched these new jacks in. Compared to what was in the room it sounded puny, grainy & small. Everyone actually frowned when my pieces were patched into the board. It got so bad to the point that i just stopped bringing the stuff. It was an ear opening experience. I left that place totally resolute and got rid of alot of the "new" stuff.

[3rd world order]

chandler germanium stuff works for me..

[dokushoka]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I've been working out of a recording studio in Long Island. Vintage Neve console 8068 mkII with 32264a's,2254's,metal knob 33609's, real plate reverbs,Emt 251, (8) Pultecs, (4)La3a's, a pair of UA 175's, a pair of blue stripe 1176's, Ba6a, Gates Sta Levels,SA39B,inovonics 201's, Altec Big Red speakers, studer A80, vintage instruments,vinatge mics and bunch of other old gear.

This place even smelled vintage.

There are only 2 outboard pieces there that were made in the 90's(a pair of Distressors & an ADL compressor). Everything in that place is vintage and modified. He reluctantly bought a ProTools system because so many new clients were asking for it.

I brought some of the new pieces on the block(EQ's and compressors) to his place to help me in some mixes.

Dude it was embarassing when i patched these new jacks in. Compared to what was in the room it sounded puny, grainy & small. Everyone actually frowned when my pieces were patched into the board. It got so bad to the point that i just stopped bringing the stuff. It was an ear opening experience. I left that place totally resolute and got rid of alot of the "new" stuff.

It sounds as though you have been truly inspired by a new artist. Perhaps your sonic vocabulary is growing to adapt to this new artist's vocabulary?

It is like watching early Godard films... without the grainy old ilford film stock and crude handheld cameras, the images just would not have the same emotional effect that they do. Godard's new work is brilliant, even with modern equipment, but the feeling is so different...

I'm jealous of you.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by dokushoka

It sounds as though you have been truly inspired by a new artist. Perhaps your sonic vocabulary is growing to adapt to this new artist's vocabulary?

No not really.

I think what happened is i started to settle for the current status quo.

Basically ever since i got rid of the SSL i've been mixing in the DAW exclusively and i've been able to churn out competitive product. But competive to what though?

Stepping outside the confines in an all analog situation unclogged my ears. I realize that there was a whole band of sounds i've been mixing without. Basically sonic "color" starved even though i thought i was making progress. A

And yeah the current clients are satisfied but i wasn't.

Ever since then i've started the cleansing.

[dokushoka]

Ever since then i've started the cleansing.

thumbsup

[Watersound]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Dude it was embarassing when i patched these new jacks in. Compared to what was in the room it sounded puny, grainy & small. Everyone actually frowned when my pieces were patched into the board. It got so bad to the point that i just stopped bringing the stuff. It was an ear opening experience. I left that place totally resolute and got rid of alot of the "new" stuff.

This is why I have to donate my kidneys to be able to afford vintage stuff...$6,000+ for a pair of vintage 1176's? You've got to be joking me.

[GYang]

Interesting thread.
Actually I've never had such dramatic ears/eyes opening experience in relation to old gears, but I definitely found for myself that some newer gears are indeed much better than other newer gears despite same or similar price level or high-end image.

[Labs]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

more pleasing to the ear even when running in bypass

True bypass is the new big thing.

Gustav

[trickydicky]

Originally Posted by Labs

True bypass is the new big thing.

Gustav

In my opinion, true bypass can be a very useful feature...

Can we stop being so bloody lazy and just set all the knobs to zero? Use a chinagraph pencil if you need to mark your settings..... jeeez.

[Kiwiburger]

I'm not likely to buy any true vintage gear, because I want stuff that works with no maintenance. I don't want museum pieces, and I don't have the money to waste on nostaligia.

And if I bought anything that audibly changed the sound in bypass, I would consider that a major design flaw.

Having said that - I want all the analog mojo I can get. If this mythical vintage stuff was so shit hot in bypass, it must have just been a transformer thing.

So why not just buy some transformers? Anyone done just that, and have any recommendations? I remember reading about Wendy Carlos, and I believe she used transformers on everything - don't know if that simply meant good DI boxes or what.

[Stitch333]

The Gyraf XIV eq looks like it might fit the bill, but I've never had a chance to put it through the ringer...