Balancing synths

[Mr.T]

Hey guys,
Wondering about whether its worth balancing synths for recording. I've got a Triton i hook up into a da7 using top quality unbalanced leads, 1m in length. I can get my hands on an EB tech 8ch unbal to bal. fairly cheaply. Am i going to notice a difference?
If not, why do alot of you guys DI your synths? Is it for the sound of the DI (eg tube)?

Just trying to "learn the game ", and you guys got game!

[faeflora]

Originally posted by Mr.T
Hey guys,
Wondering about whether its worth balancing synths for recording. I've got a Triton i hook up into a da7 using top quality unbalanced leads, 1m in length. I can get my hands on an EB tech 8ch unbal to bal. fairly cheaply. Am i going to notice a difference?
If not, why do alot of you guys DI your synths? Is it for the sound of the DI (eg tube)?

Just trying to "learn the game ", and you guys got game!

Firstly, your question is in the realm of "low end". If you are willing to comprimise your tone to be "cheap" then you have the wrong mindset about "the game".

Snobbery and forum ****ism aside:

1. Using balanced cables to connect the output of your triton to your da7 won't help shit except for possibly attracting more RF and EMF noise.

2. Unbalanced into balanced does not equal more better.

3. Balanced does not necessarily equal more better than unbalanced. Sometimes unbalanced is better.

4. DI has nothing to do with balancing a signal.

To reference Whirlwind's website:

A DI serves several basic functions:

It converts a high impedance signal to a low impedance signal (although it will also accept a low impedance signal from a preamp, keyboard, active pickup or other electronic device).

It converts an unbalanced signal to balanced. It reduces a strong instrument or line level signal (and sometimes even speaker level signal) to a mic level signal suitable for connection to the mic input of a mixing console.

It isolates electronic equipment on stage from the mixing console, which can help eliminate interference and noise caused by DC interaction or ground loops.

5. Some DI's have gain circuits built in to (hopefully) provide better amplification than the mixing console might.

6. TUBE GEAR DOES NOT NECESSARILY SOUND BETTER THAN SOLID STATE GEAR.

[oldgearguy]

Originally posted by Mr.T
Hey guys,
Wondering about whether its worth balancing synths for recording. I've got a Triton i hook up into a da7 using top quality unbalanced leads, 1m in length. I can get my hands on an EB tech 8ch unbal to bal. fairly cheaply. Am i going to notice a difference?
If not, why do alot of you guys DI your synths? Is it for the sound of the DI (eg tube)?

Just trying to "learn the game ", and you guys got game!

Here's what I did and you can decide if it applies to your situation.

I have an older analog mixer (Trident Series 70) and the line inputs are happiest when seeing a +4 signal. Since the line inputs are also balanced and I'm running relatively long lines around the room to get from synths to the console, I decided to solve both problems at once.

I picked up a SynthDriver II from Signal Transport (www.sigt.com) and run short cables from the synths to the SD II. Then I run long balanced lines (40') from the SD II into the Trident. The SD II box does a few things: balances the outputs, allows you to lift the signal ground on a per channel basis, and provides up to 15 dB of gain per channel (factory set at 10 dB of gain). Internally, they use a Burr Brown DRV134PA, INA134PA, and an MN5534 to handle these duties.

Previously, I had to have the channel inputs gains maxed out at +10 and the channel faders up to +5 to get a decent hot signal to the rest of the system. Now the input trims sit between 0 and +3 the vast majority of the time and the channel faders sit at 0. The system is dead quiet with no hum or buzz. It is an expensive, PITA to wire solution, but for my installation, it's the best answer.

[steins]

I'm lucky enough to have my synths in the control room, so in most cases, I run a cable from the synth to a pair of D.I.s (usually Avalon U5s or BSS 133s since that is what I have), then into a preamp. Which preamp depends on which sound. For typical keyboard sounds (piano, hammond, moog etc.), it's usually a Neve-clone or the API 3124+, for "clean" sounds (Orchestral samples etc.), I choose a transparent pre like the Millennia. Bass patches might get the Avalon 737 - you get the idea.

In some cases, the Headphone output on some synths sounds better than their normal outputs. I don't know why; maybe an impedance thing?

I'm sure there are 100 more ways to record keys, and none of them would be more "right" than the other. Reamping keys can also be nice.

Stein Tore

[Mr.T]

THanx oldgearguy. Faeflora, you must be from the old guard huh?
I know what a DI does. Do you?....
FYI, quote from you:
4. DI has nothing to do with balancing a signal.
"A DI serves several basic functions:...
It converts an unbalanced signal to balanced".

THe reason i ask is that alot of people seem to DI synths here. WHen you consider that they run at line level and not high impendence (unlike instrument level or am i mistaken?), this is why i ask the question.
Short cable runs shouldnt pick up RF interference or ground hum, hence why i've never bothered as i've never run into any problems. But i guess i'm enquiring b/c i hear and read many conflicting ideas... THe input accepts both, so i was wondering whether it would be of any benefit.

Just trying to improve the sound of what i do.

[thenewyear]

faeflora's response was a bit mental wasn't it??

anyway fyi i take my minimoog through a BSS 116 into my preamp of choice. i have a very short (20cm) unbalanced cable going to the box & then a much longer balanced run going to my patchbay.

i use the DI principally to balance the signal before the long cable run but it also nicely matches the signal level for the preamp.

___
neil.

[Ted Nightshade]

FWIW almost all "balanced" outputs on synths are "cosmetically balanced" at best, to quote the designer of the Equi=Tech power conditioners. I was having some hum troubles with mine so I got into some nice transformer DIs. I do use the DIs (which are tube) for the sound too- they have a great 3D effect to them that makes direct tracks sit in the mix just like they were mic'ed up, really well, in a great room. No reverb desired, and more focused ballsy tones.

[faeflora]

Originally posted by Mr.T
THanx oldgearguy. Faeflora, you must be from the old guard huh?
I know what a DI does. Do you?....
FYI, quote from you:
4. DI has nothing to do with balancing a signal.
"A DI serves several basic functions:...
It converts an unbalanced signal to balanced".
.

I guess not

[faeflora]

I just know they make stuf sound better.

Please do not post topics about non high end gear in the high end forum!

Synths are not high end!

tutt

[djui5]

Waldorf Synths are "high end"

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by faeflora
If you are willing to comprimise your tone to be "cheap" then you have the wrong mindset about "the game".

This is the "High End" quote of the year.

Originally posted by djui5
Waldorf Synths are "high end"

No they're not.

tutt

[djui5]

Originally posted by High End Cop
No they're not.

tutt

Just joking officer....

[Clueless]

Where's the line drawn in high end?

Are my ISA 430s low end or high end?

What about my GML 8900 (now that the 2030 is out)?

What about my midas XL42 preamp/eqs?

Is my H8000 low end (because it doesn't have a DSP moniker), or is every multi-effects unit low end (by definition).

Are my Speck ASC eqs high end? What if they're front-ended by Spec MicPre 5.0s?

[djui5]

Originally posted by Clueless
What about my GML 8900 (now that the 2030 is out)?

That compressor will always be on the top of the food chain no matter what comes out. I'd say it's the high end of high end gear....

[faeflora]

Originally posted by Clueless
Where's the line drawn in high end?

Are my ISA 430s low end or high end?

What about my GML 8900 (now that the 2030 is out)?

What about my midas XL42 preamp/eqs?

Is my H8000 low end (because it doesn't have a DSP moniker), or is every multi-effects unit low end (by definition).

Are my Speck ASC eqs high end? What if they're front-ended by Spec MicPre 5.0s?

I guess that the H8000 isn't high end since it can function as a synth?

Regarding the 8900, how dare you ask!!! Sheesh!

[Mr.T]

What? A synth is not high end? What kind of a crappy blanket statement is that? If you do electro what you gonna use? Plug-ins? (altho wouldnt pass up a virus!) A sound is a sound, no matter what perceived quality, and if it works it works. Some of you remind me of a guy who buys a car and hots it up to make up for whats missing b/w his legs!

Just because something can be bought cheap ie inexpensive, doesnt mean it's going to sound crap or make a source sound crapper. The Q is not technically about the gear, but whether its worth balancing or DI'ing over a short distance, 3-5 feet. Its in the high end section b/c its at this level that someone would consider whether to balance out synth outputs for better quality.

[bloke]

I dont wanna enter into the high/low end thing, but as a suggestion, if your main OPs arent hot enough, try using the headphone outs, theyr often 10-20db hotter.

[JohnMcD]

I find this extremely interesting when it comes to DI for a keyboard or micing. I own a Fantom 88 and find that it has some sweet sounds. Of course, I'm listening through a pair of KRK speakers for the keyboard. Logic would dictate that to take advantage of the awesome sounds out of the Roland keyboard, I would just go line out and catch it through the console. Pure as can be. But get this:

I use a V150 kurzweil Baby Grand. This thing is okay for sport. The reason why I mention this thing is because of the size of the speakers this has! Between the Fantom samples and the Kurzweil samples, I find them negligible compared to each other. Except of course for the piano samples. I can't go line out of the V150 because it doesn't offer that option, so I'll mic the speakers. Of all the money funneled into this thing, the speakers make up 80% of the weight and 95% of the quality. I am amazed with it everytime I sit down on it (I literally feel the vibrations!). Why go line out when I could capture the awesome speaker coverage?

So I think that's the answer. If you have really good speakers for your keyboard, mic it (with a good mic). If not, line out (or DI). It explains why Kurzweil didn't include line out for the V150 or anything of that nature. Just MIDI stuff, pedal and a power plug etc. The Fantom on the other hand has all kinds of ins and outs.

-John

[steins]

Micing speakers can be good fun and produce interesting results. You'll get the sound of your speakers instead of the real sound of the samples/models, but that can be a good thing!

Put some room-mikes up as well, and you'll have plenty of options.

Stein Tore