Wanted: a top-notch vocal mic.

[Icarus]

Hello all,
This will be my first post on this forum, and I'm glad I registered at last. My story is this:

I am a singer/songwriter looking to build a project studio. I play primarily acoustic/alt/folky stuff, which lends itself to a smaller work environment (4 channels of pre's/converters.)
I have a budget of around $20k +/- and I can allocate around a quarter of that to a vocal mic. My vocal style is close-mic'd, hear-every-breath-and-movement sort of deal. I'm looking for the creamiest, intimate, delicately colored LDC that any of you know of. That is, without breaking $5k.

Feedback greatly appreciated, thank you.

[HIGHENDONLY]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Hello all,
This will be my first post on this forum, and I'm glad I registered at last. My story is this:

I am a singer/songwriter looking to build a project studio. I play primarily acoustic/alt/folky stuff, which lends itself to a smaller work environment (4 channels of pre's/converters.)
I have a budget of around $20k +/- and I can allocate around a quarter of that to a vocal mic. My vocal style is close-mic'd, hear-every-breath-and-movement sort of deal. I'm looking for the creamiest, intimate, delicately colored LDC that any of you know of. That is, without breaking $5k.

Feedback greatly appreciated, thank you.

Wunder cm7

[Icarus]

It looks very nice. What kind of experience do you have with it?


Oh, and I forgot to mention a list of the mics I've been looking at as possibilities (within a variety of price ranges):

Mojave MA-200
Neumann u87ai
Lawson L47MP MKII
Soundelux E251C
BLUE Cactus
AKG Solidtube
InnerTUBE audio MM2000

Any mics that you think would make better alternatives than the above list for what I've previously described as my vocal style, please, share the wealth

[syra]

Yup ...after testing over 10 mics (4-8K) head2head, the winner was the Wunder CM7. I now have 2.

Also equally awesome but totally different sounding is the Brauner VMA.

Can't go wrong with either.

[Icarus]

Alright, I'll look into trying one. The brauner is a bit out of my price range though.

Ok, I have a few questions about the cm7.

What kind of color does it have? I presume warm, though not overly so, and not too sparkly. Another thing: can it be used to good effect on acoustic guitars?

Thank you guys

[clownjuggles]

DPA Large Diaphragm Condensors. Great warm sound. Very Neutral. And you can use the mic as a stage handheld mic if you wanted to. The 4041 Mics run around 3-4 grand, and they also have a 48 and 130 volt options.

[peeder]

I use the Neumann M149 on most vocals now, and the MA-200 on acoustic guitar (for fingerstyle especially).

The best vocal mic is largely a matter of marrying the mic to the voice...it's hard to get a situation where you can shoot them out, and when you're just beginning it's even harder to know what really wins a shootout in the end because you won't be able to judge how a mic will sit in the mix. You might love the lowend of a 47 on its own, but when you get to mixing it, it's just too huge to use in some situations and you end up highpassing it and would have been better off with something with more midrange detail to begin with...

One way about this might be to check out a studio that has a bunch of these already, book a couple hours with the engineer, and try the mics out with you singing over representative material. Record the takes...don't rely on what's in your headphones, as there will be phase interactions with the direct signal that vary. Work out the best placement for each mic and record one at a time. An experienced engineer's opinion can be taken on board beneficially.

[Icarus]

Well, my budget for my entire project studio is about $20 grand. I just don't think spending a third of that on one mic is a good idea, especially considering I still need pre's, converters, other mics, monitors, plug-ins, and acoustic treatment.

I've been reading, and hearing some very good things about the Wunder CM7. I'm strongly considering this, but in the meantime, I've added it to the list.

As for the AKG, yeah it's inexpensive in comparison to some of these heavy hitting mics, but if it works . . .

[clownjuggles]

Icarus the DPA 4041 SP check it out.
******//www.dpamicrophones.com/Images...0d12b52831ccec

RECORDING Forums - Post 305979 -

Very nice deal

[clownjuggles]

I would metion that they are a very CLEAN mic. Your strings will come thru very clean and clear. as will vocals you can easily create the sound you want in post if you want.

[Icarus]

It looks good, of course pretty much everything looks good at this price range.
People call the 4041 very bright according to what I've read. Though it's a good deal less expensive than the CM7, I just don't know at this point. I've been looking at so much gear lately it's somewhat of an overload.

I think I'm going to order three high quality mics and send two back.
Here's what I know right now. I'm getting one Mojave MA-200 for a LDC — various applications. I'm getting a Royer-R122 for my ribbon. I'm getting a pair of SDC's, as of yet unspecified (though it's between Neumann KM184's, Mojave MA-100's, AKG C 451B's, AKG C 480B's, Schoeps CMC64's.)

That puts me at about 4k of mics. That leaves room for one sexy vocal mic.

[clownjuggles]

Icarus.

What I would do is call DPA microphones. Talk to Bruce or Shane. They can arrange to do a week long rental of the mics to you as a trial or talk to a place like vintage king audio. They will also let you audition the microphones as well. I just spent a week auditioning the DPA 4041S and 4041T as a vocal mic and I recorded a bit of my guitar just plucking strings for reference. The microphones are only bright if a person is used to mics that alter the sound and color it. These mics don't have color. They record the sound as is. It is well worth checking out. The other mic I am looking at is the Neumann Solution D.

That was used on Tierney Suttons albums as well. Neumann D01 you can found it around 5000ish give or take.

ftp://telmedia.telarc.com/telarc/83592/83592-1-m.mp3

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Here's what I know right now. I'm getting one Mojave MA-200 for a LDC — various applications. I'm getting a Royer-R122 for my ribbon. I'm getting a pair of SDC's, as of yet unspecified (though it's between Neumann KM184's, Mojave MA-100's, AKG C 451B's, AKG C 480B's, Schoeps CMC64's.)

I'm not a huge fan of AKG but I think the 451's and the Schoeps are the ones to check out from that list. The MA-100's going to be a bit redundant with the MA-200 sonically (in terms of character) from what I can tell, and the KM184's, while OK, aren't so stellar (I've had one for years and I don't use it as often as I'd like...it's nice on classical guitar though).

[GYang]

Originally Posted by clownjuggles

Icarus.

What I would do is call DPA microphones. Talk to Bruce or Shane. They can arrange to do a week long rental of the mics to you as a trial or talk to a place like vintage king audio. They will also let you audition the microphones as well. I just spent a week auditioning the DPA 4041S and 4041T as a vocal mic and I recorded a bit of my guitar just plucking strings for reference.
ftp://telmedia.telarc.com/telarc/83592/83592-1-m.mp3

4041S is absolutely my go mic when I wish to record clean acoustic guitar, without too much sharpness and still fully articulate. It is great mic, neutral and classy.
Still, I think that eventhough it might fit vocal recording tasks perfectly, our ears are somehow adjusted to pleasant distortion and nuances that are ususally associated with good tube mics from the past.
With your budget and expectations Korby U67 would be my Nr.1 choice (you will still have option to re-voice capsule for your particular taste freo of charge later) plus for not too much money 251 or other excellent heads might be added in the future. I have it and use it daily side by side with some heavyweighters (and even original vintage Neumans/Telefunkens sometimes), there is no single reason why it would not fit to same class with Wunder, Neuman, Telefunken and top end Brauners.
Wunder might be arguably stronger in U47 dept., still if you don't plan to spend in the future some 30-40 k on mics, versatility you might achieve with Korby looks quite appealing.

[Icarus]

I'm guessing I probably will end up spending a good 20K more on mics within the next few years, but at this point I really just want to get enough mics to record, without incident, a quality album.

[clownjuggles]

Icarus,

There is no need to spend that much money on microphones. It is better to buy one high quality mic than to have 4 or 5 ones that just don't do it perfectly. I agree with Gyang big time. DPA is HIGH END. Most people don't consider them for cost reasons or they are used to thinking of U47 is GOD, tube mics are best, etc. If you want clean sound you could also look at earthworks.

[NOCCA]

Originally Posted by Icarus

I'm guessing I probably will end up spending a good 20K more on mics within the next few years, but at this point I really just want to get enough mics to record, without incident, a quality album.

Is the album that you are recording yours?

If you just want to record your album, hire a studio and focus on the music.

If you are doing the recording for someone else end letting them focus on music, by all means great suggestions so far.

[clownjuggles]

Ok I did a bit more checking.

Here is something you might want to read that might help with your looking.

Application Guide
That is a guide on how to mic an acoustic guitar. VERY good advice. They also have guides on how to mic any kind of instrument. What city are you located in?

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by NOCCA

Is the album that you are recording yours?

Yes, and the reason I'm building a studio is because I get to work on it with full control and integrity. The other reason is that I'll be creating many, many albums, and I prefer to have free reign over my process. I will be tracking drums at a professional studio though.

To Clownjuggles:
I agree with you on all points. I will look into DPA further, because yes, I am looking to get a couple very neutral mics, but I am also looking to get a colored mic, such as the Wunder CM7 or CM7 GT, or something from Lawson/Gefell/Brauner.

You must understand, at this point I am really looking to get the basics going. What I need to record guitar and vocals.

I'm gonna check out that app guide right now, too. Again, thanks a bunch!

[KingDaddyO]

One of the great sleeper high end mics is the CAD VX2. It's a dual-valve design with interchangeable capsules. It is an absolutely gorgeous sounding mic, with very smooth freq. response and excellent transparency. While they aren't manufactured any longer, you see them pop up on eBay occasionally. That's where I got mine and there are a couple listed now from one seller. I've seen them go for as low as 750 USD (an absolute steal, since orig. SRP back around the mid 90's was about 2400).

Search the gs forums, there has been a lot of chatter about these mics - they are a completely different breed than the current crop of CAD mics, and are often compared favorably to any vintage mic.

[True North]

Originally Posted by KingDaddyO

One of the great sleeper high end mics is the CAD VX2 mic.

Ditto - they stopped making these mics. I borrowed a friends a while ago and fell in love. Hard to imagine that no-one every really talks about it except Warhead/ Warren and now you.

I just recently bought one used for $750 on Ebay - it is truly a redicoulous steal if I have ever seen one, it used to list at $2000. I also own the little cousin to VX2 called the VSM which also sounds really good.

If you are patient you can find one ebay for under $1000 easily


ANOTHER GTREAT OPTION

Telefunken USA Elam 251 F
Telefunken USA | Telefunken Ela M 251 F

I am pretty sure you can get one for under 5 thousand if you get the right dealer. I did a very extensive mic shootout that I posted on this site (search under: Mega Mic Shootout) and this mic won the voting on the shootout. Anyways it is worth testing out, cheers!

[clownjuggles]

Icarus,

I understand your dilemma more because I am currently in the final stages of setting up my own project studio as well. I am currently testing microphones. I have pretty much decided that I am looking at digital as most of my work is digital. I am looking at the neumann Solution D and the schoeps Colette Digital bodies. Both seem to be extensively versitile. The schoeps seems to be slightly cheaper. But I will send you samples if you want when I do my tests.

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by True North

Ditto - they stopped making these mics. I borrowed a friends a while ago and fell in love. Hard to imagine that no-one every really talks about it except Warhead/ Warren and now you.

I just recently bought one used for $750 on Ebay - it is truly a redicoulous steal if I have ever seen one, it used to list at $2000. I also own the little cousin to VX2 called the VSM which also sounds really good.

If you are patient you can find one ebay for under $1000 easily

Ha! I was tracking that auction, seriously pondering going for it so I would have a pair. But alas ... in the end it just wasn't in the budget for this month.

Great purchase - you almost had serious competition!

[True North]

Originally Posted by KingDaddyO

Ha! I was tracking that auction, seriously pondering going for it so I would have a pair. But alas ... in the end it just wasn't in the budget for this month.

Great purchase - you almost had serious competition!

I was very happy with that auction. I was sniping one previous to the one I bought (the one with the extra tubes) and I forgot to confirm my bid after I entered and someone else won it for $720..... man I was pissed!!!

Than another came up with a buyitnow of $750 a couple of days later and I snatched it up I was lucky on that one

There is some guy on there right now, second time posting his auction with a start price of $1500 - I told him he was smoking crack but he posted a second time at the same price after no one bit the first time.

[stevep]

There is nothing wrong with the good ole U87 )
It sounds good on everything, but... It can be great on some things

Then of coarse theres the Pearlman


.

[cortisol]

Ditto the Pearlman TM-1.

It is a beautiful mic on voice AND acoustic instruments. It can do everything you have asked for Icarus.

You'll be able to invest in a signal chain without compromises if you take advantage of this bargain.

Peace,
cortisol

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by clownjuggles

Icarus,

I understand your dilemma more because I am currently in the final stages of setting up my own project studio as well. I am currently testing microphones. I have pretty much decided that I am looking at digital as most of my work is digital. I am looking at the neumann Solution D and the schoeps Colette Digital bodies. Both seem to be extensively versitile. The schoeps seems to be slightly cheaper. But I will send you samples if you want when I do my tests.

Please do! I as well am working digitally (ProTools, surprise, surprise) and though I very likely will not purchase any digital mics — simply because that kind of technology seems to become obsolete relatively quickly — I am curious to hear how they compare to the standard.

As for the CAD VX2, here's how it is: I am a musician rooted in alternative music, I recognize that a certain level of quality is to be sought after without compromise and that quality comes with a decently large price-tag. I am also not an audiophile, rather choosing to respect hifi gear without researching it and following it on a day to day basis (though that's exactly what I have been doing for a few weeks now, hopefully to resolve soon.) In a nutshell, I'm not willing to track vintage equipment and find good deals on it, because frankly, that would require knowing what the hell I'm doing. As it is, my knowledge of the inner workings regarding all things audio is markedly limited.

This doesn't mean that I will fail to be tenacious in my persuit of an ideal signal chain. It means that I'll find some good stuff and call it at that, and I hope maybe this clears up some stuff and makes it easier for you to determine what I would consider and what not.


To Stevep: I've already ruled out the U87. I'm building a private studio, so I have no need of the name, and since the U87 is used on so many things, I prefer to deviate.
Iwillcheck out pearlman. In fact I already did and they look good. I shall research further.

To the rest of you: thank you for your input, and I will factor any further suggestions into my plans.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by True North

I was very happy with that auction. I was sniping one previous to the one I bought (the one with the extra tubes) and I forgot to confirm my bid after I entered and someone else won it for $720..... man I was pissed!!!

I saw that mic, and accidentally bid on it. Then I noticed that it only had one capsule (the larger one), and didn't come with a case. It shouldn't have gone for more than $600/$650

Originally Posted by True North

Than another came up with a buyitnow of $750 a couple of days later and I snatched it up I was lucky on that one

I saw that, and almost did a BIN just because it was so ridiculously low. I'm glad you got it.

Originally Posted by True North

There is some guy on there right now, second time posting his auction with a start price of $1500 - I told him he was smoking crack but he posted a second time at the same price after no one bit the first time.

Those have been listed several times (> 3) now. I think the seller is just waiting for someone who will meet his price.

[jslevin]

Surprised nobody has brought up the BLUE Bottle by now.

Originally Posted by clownjuggles

I agree with Gyang big time. DPA is HIGH END. Most people don't consider them for cost reasons or they are used to thinking of U47 is GOD, tube mics are best, etc. If you want clean sound you could also look at earthworks.

Yes. It is not well understood here, even in the high end, that discussion of "the standards" has been dominated for decades by heavy-electric-guitar-rock recordings. When you record a wide variety of styles, and acoustic music in particular, many of the revered standards start to look like "just another good mic [or preamp], and exactly why does 'pleasantly inaccurate' cost so damned much?"

Originally Posted by NOCCA

If you just want to record your album, hire a studio and focus on the music.

I agree. The subtext of so many of these inquiries is, "Professional engineers basically don't do anything. If I can buy some expensive mics -- throw money at the problem -- then my production work will be as good as anyone's." Our least experienced engineer has probably spent close to 10,000 hours honing his craft, and that is what an amateur recordist will never get on his own. I think there are very few hobbyists who can make any real use of a $4,000 mic as compared with a $500 mic.

I have to say, Icarus, with all due respect, your comment about "integrity" is laughable. If you have $20,000 to spend on making simple acoustic recordings, you certainly can buy all the control you need.

JSL

[NOCCA]

Originally Posted by jslevin

Surprised nobody has brought up the BLUE Bottle by now.



Yes. It is not well understood here, even in the high end, that discussion of "the standards" has been dominated for decades by heavy-electric-guitar-rock recordings. When you record a wide variety of styles, and acoustic music in particular, many of the revered standards start to look like "just another good mic [or preamp], and exactly why does 'pleasantly inaccurate' cost so damned much?"



I agree. The subtext of so many of these inquiries is, "Professional engineers basically don't do anything. If I can buy some expensive mics -- throw money at the problem -- then my production work will be as good as anyone's." Our least experienced engineer has probably spent close to 10,000 hours honing his craft, and that is what an amateur recordist will never get on his own. I think there are very few hobbyists who can make any real use of a $4,000 mic as compared with a $500 mic.

I have to say, Icarus, with all due respect, your comment about "integrity" is laughable. If you have $20,000 to spend on making simple acoustic recordings, you certainly can buy all the control you need.

JSL

Thats exactly my point. If he has money to spend, the engineer is under his control. If you hire an engineer, you are the boss. I have a personal peeve currently against artists recording their own music, as I am currently producing an album that calls for sax overdubs. The sax player said he had gear at home and wanted to do it their, but I suggested doing it at the studio. Unfortunately the sax player won in my instance (he volunteered to play for free), and the tracks I got back were distorted.

Now, icarus I am not saying that you are like the sax player, but as jslevin pointed out, professional engineers know what we are doing.

I think it is a great idea for artists to have small studios at their home for documenting ideas, but for making records, that's why we exist.

>>AG