Why compress 2Bus if going for TOP Level Mastering ?

[patrox247]

Originally Posted by sage691

I was told by a TOP level mastering engineer to NOT bother compressing the 2 bus, and that the most important thing to him was that 4-6 db of headroom was available so he could do his super smash treatment for maximum loudness. He told me to concentrate on dynamic expression and punch of the overall mix and leave the squashing up to him. He said generally the worst stuff he gets is where the mixing engineer used a compressor on the 2 bus and tried to get too much out of it, leaving little or no headroom. And I'm not joking when I say this guy is in the TOP 5 mastering engineers mostly for agressive, loud guitar bands.

OK, I'm no CLA here but I'm wondering why so many people on this forum talk about compressing/limiting the 2Bus for final mixing ? I have a Red 3, and I know many others seem to like the Alan Smart C2 for this. My question is also leaning more to those who mix heavy, aggressive guitar and drums style music and who use hi end analog consoles for mixing.

Is it really beneficial if you are going to have it mastered later; or is it potentially a disadvantage ? If beneficial , please explain why ?

Mxing into a 2 buss comp is very different than compressing the final mix. Having a comp on the 2 buss pulls things together rather quickly and if used correctly can somewhat help things gell (I hate the word glue). A lot of mastering engineers have seen the abuse of this (which leaves them screwed), and thus prefer mix engineers to be conservative. If you want that "crush everything to death with an SSL comp" sound, you are going to have to do that during the mix and not in mastering. During the mix, you are mixing "INTO" the comp.

[DrKoss]

Ditto. Most mastering guys would prefer to compress it themselves - unless you mixed through the compressor. In that case, the compressor is part of the mix, not something you add later.

[sage691]

Originally Posted by patrox247

Mxing into a 2 buss comp is very different than compressing the final mix. Having a comp on the 2 buss pulls things together rather quickly and if used correctly can somewhat help things gell (I hate the word glue). A lot of mastering engineers have seen the abuse of this (which leaves them screwed), and thus prefer mix engineers to be conservative. If you want that "crush everything to death with an SSL comp" sound, you are going to have to do that during the mix and not in mastering. During the mix, you are mixing "INTO" the comp.

So "inserting" a compressor like the Red 3 on the console's 2Bus is technically NOT compressing the final mix, even though all of the summed tracks are going "into" it ? I'm still a bit confused; forgive me for being an amateur. I guess this method is used to get the "glue" effect for the whole mix, yet without killing the dynamics and headroom for the mastering engineer ?

[DrKoss]

If you monitor the output of that compressor (patching the output to the 2 track return for example) then yes - you are "mixing" through the compressor. If you make your mix with no regard to compression and then slap it on at the end, better off waiting till mastering.

[not_so_new]

There is just something about the title of this thread that just rubs me wrong...



So you have to compress the 2 buss if you are going to a bottom level mastering engineer?

Just kidding

Anywho. I used to be against 2 buss compression but I have made it over to the dark side, I really really like mixing into a comp for that "glue" business (yeah I hate that word as well patrox247). I use 2 buss compression on every mix I do but I have also started using better tools so that might be why I am digging it more now that 10 years ago?

Either way back to the point... If you are NOT 100% sure what you are doing or NOT 100% sure that you are not overdoing, make a safety "no compression" mix and send both to the mastering guy.

The reason this "TOP level mastering engineer" told you not to mix with 2 buss compression was because he / she gets smashed mixes from inexperienced engineers (and many experienced ones as well) all the time and is probably sick of dealing with it.

Go to him / her a few more times with other projects and develop a relationship. Send 2 mixes of everything you do, one with no compression and one with. Let the ME critique your mixes and offer suggestions for next time. If he / she is a pro (and not all TOP level mastering engineers are) then you can use that as a learning experience to make better overall mixes with or without 2 buss compression on the next project.

Oh one more bit of advice. I am not sure who this TOP level ME is but there are a ton of guys right on this site (go check out the Mastering forum below) that I would be happy to send my mixes to anytime. Just because someone is charging top dollar or has a huge client list does not guarantee that they are the best person for you to work with. There are plenty of great cats here at GS that could give you back excellent results!



Good luck.

[thethrillfactor]

I recently finished mixing a project(14 songs) and the ME used no compression on the 2 mix in mastering.

He didn't think it needed it. I wholeheartedly agreed since i had done it already in mixing.

Just because the tools are available to an ME doesn't mean he needs to use them. There are different ways to get things done in mastering that don't involve compression one bit. This is one thing that seperates the good ME's from the bad one's.

The bad one's will try to enforce their ideas and fix what they think is broken.

The good one's highlight what's great about the mixes and do it in ways where it doesn't compromise all the hard work that took to get them there.

[patrox247]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I recently finished mixing a project(14 songs) and the ME used no compression on the 2 mix in mastering.

He didn't think it needed it. I wholeheartedly agreed since i had done it already in mixing.

Just because the tools are available to an ME doesn't need he needs to use them. There are different ways to get things done in mastering that don't involve compression one bit. This is one thing that seperates the good ME's from the bad one's.

The bad one's will try to enforce their ideas and fix what they think is broken.

The good one's highlight what's great about the mixes and do it in ways where it doesn't compromise all the hard work that took to get them there.

thumbsup Well said

[Brad Blackwood]

As stated in my FAQ:

Should I add compression to my mixes?
Some mastering engineers will tell you not to compress your mixes, giving various reasons such as the quality of your compressors or your monitoring environment not being up to par, but I disagree. Mix compression can radically change the instrumental balances within the music; if left to the mastering engineer your mix will often come back sounding very different from what you sent. I recommend judicious use of compression, checking the results in various listening environments with varying levels (if needed) until you are sure it is beneficial. If you still feel uncertain, print versions with and without compression, and remember, the mastering engineer is there to 'polish', not 'repaint' your mixes …

[doug_hti]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I recently finished mixing a project(14 songs) and the ME used no compression on the 2 mix in mastering.

He didn't think it needed it. I wholeheartedly agreed since i had done it already in mixing.

Just because the tools are available to an ME doesn't need he needs to use them. There are different ways to get things done in mastering that don't involve compression one bit. This is one thing that seperates the good ME's from the bad one's.

The bad one's will try to enforce their ideas and fix what they think is broken.

The good one's highlight what's great about the mixes and do it in ways where it doesn't compromise all the hard work that took to get them there.

And on my last major (large budget) project, the mastering engineer (probably considered a "top 5" and is in LA as well (narrowing it down to two)) said he has only touched his compressor ONCE in the last two years and that everything coming in now days has "plenty" of compression. He is also what some consider to be one of the biggest "loudness offenders". He didn't touch a compressor, nor did he make the project "too loud".....probably because I didn't ask him to....go figure....

[Tony Shepperd]

Mix the way you hear it.
If you hear it with compression, then get it sounding the way you want.

Typically when I deliver a track to an ME I just want him to check the top and bottom of the mixes and to make it loud.

The mix should sound the way you want it to sound.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by doug_hti

He didn't touch a compressor, nor did he make the project "too loud".....probably because I didn't ask him to....go figure....

That's actually really nice to hear and gives the future hope. To think he didn't do his "Big budget top 5 ME preset" on your mixes is a good thing. I have heard the opposite at times on major projects done here in the city. Never understood it.

And the funny part is when you mention to the client to take the project back and have them re do it you get this expression...

Its like "how dare i question the powers that be"? I am just a lowly peon.

And why the forumn is so obsessed with compression is mind numbing.

Its like a record is not right if there isn't any compression involved somewhere.

How the hell did they ever make records before compression became such a fad is beyond me?

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

How the hell did they ever make records before compression became such a fad is beyond me?

that was before global warming. temperatures were lower, so the air molecules moved more slowly, creating a sort of natural, "air compression".

the great irony is that, though the temperature was cooler, the sound was "warmer".

[patrox247]

Originally Posted by zimv20

that was before global warming. temperatures were lower, so the air molecules moved more slowly, creating a sort of natural, "air compression".

the great irony is that, though the temperature was cooler, the sound was "warmer".

LOL

[Drumsound]

I agree with the others. Deliver the mix the way you want it to be. There's and ME I like that doesn't compress my mixes because I've handled that before he hears it. He does what a ME is supposed to. He takes the project the last 5%. A bit of EQ on the top, make the mids match from song to song, keep the low end where it should be. Limit it some and sequence it, adjust spacing etc...

[stevep]

Why compress 2Bus if going for TOP Level Mastering ?

Because i want the sound i rarely use the 2buss comp where i cant hear it working


A MBC is no substitute for a good mix. I recommend mixing without one till your mixes are sounding great without compression. Then when you start to use one you will hear what it does to the mix, and then use it as another color/sound

I was told by a TOP level mastering engineer to NOT bother compressing the 2 bus, and that the most important thing to him was that 4-6 db of headroom was available so he could do his super smash treatment for maximum loudness.

I would Run away from this guy

Is it really beneficial if you are going to have it mastered later; or is it potentially a disadvantage ? If beneficial , please explain why ?

The benefit to me is the sound i get from my 384
any gained loudness is a by product, not the goal

The potential disadvantage is it could ruin the dynamics and turn your mix into narrow mush

But it is YOUR mix, and i wouldn't let a ME tell me how my mix should sound.

Who knows ...... maybe i wanted that crushed narrow sound,... leave mixing up to the mixer.

[picksail]

I typically mix from the onset with an SSL 384 compressor. It has a sound that I like.

When I finish a mix, from my perspective, it is done.
Of course, it isn't myself who has the final say. If the other entities involved approve of the mix then I suppose that's when it's really done.

Anything that is left to the mastering engineer is icing on the cake. I take it as far as possible then hand it over to them.

There are a few mastering engineers, who I've come across, that don't try to radically change the mix just to feel they've had some creative input. Those are the guys that I like.
I do, however, feel there are those who truly want the very best for the project and want to contribute some level of artistry. In some cases I'm all for it.
But I certainly don't rely on a mastering engineer to choose the proper buss compression for my mix. I can't even fathom how it could be possible. They aren't even present for the mix.

If the mix needs significant work at mastering then it's not mixed.

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by doug_hti

He is also what some consider to be one of the biggest "loudness offenders". He didn't touch a compressor, nor did he make the project "too loud".....probably because I didn't ask him to....go figure....

But did he touch the limiter? I find most mastering engineers are using compression for Euphonics, limiters for loudness.

Now to sage's questions. My guess from the nature of your post is that you are still a bit new to mixing. My recommendation would be leave the compressor off for now if you have a chance to get it mastered by a good mastering engineer. I agree with everyones sentiments about getting it the way you want it to sound, but compression on the 2-bus is an easy thing to screw up. at the very least I would print mixes with and without compression to bring to mastering. It will be a real shame if you get a chance to work with a good ME and their hands are tied.

I compress all my mixes, but rarely more than one or two dB, and if I do not have one of my fave mix compressors I just leave off the compression.

[Samc]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Its like a record is not right if there isn't any compression involved somewhere.

Obviously you didn't get the memo................

[ScumBum]

At what time during the mixing process do you guys start to mix into the 2 Bus ?

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by MushroomKingdom

At what time during the mixing process do you guys start to mix into the 2 Bus ?

The whole time!?!.

The stereo feed you listen to, should be (key words are "should be") the 2-buss.

[kats]

****, and I had my monitors connected to the FX returns

[stevep]

Originally Posted by MushroomKingdom

At what time during the mixing process do you guys start to mix into the 2 Bus ?

From the start

[kellyd]

I've heard MEs say they didn't use any compression yet the mixes are 10db+ louder. Sometimes you can hear the release on louder sections. That wonderful sag when the chorus comes in 2 db hotter. Splitting hairs, limiting is compression and I don't see any other way of making things as frikkin hot as they are today. I haven't met an eng who delivers his mixes averaging around -8dbfs at least not if they are going to a mastering house. I'm not saying people don't do this but I haven't met any. Maybe that's why so many MEs are paranoid.
I mix thru a C2 but don't hammer the hell out of it. Max 2db of compression.slow attack(indv tracks have their own compression). If you can control your mixes enough to have them stand up to the extreme mastering approaches of today you have a better chance of getting back a master that sounds like the mix. It's not easy and you can easily destroy your mix beyond what ME can do to save it. If you haven't done it a lot I would suggest not doing it and leaving it for the ME. I can't live without my C2 but don't abuse it. Matter of fact I've tried to cook it loud enough to not need mastering. I find a good mastering limiter does a better job of cranking the level without killing it completely.

[sage691]

Originally Posted by rcm

But did he touch the limiter? I find most mastering engineers are using compression for Euphonics, limiters for loudness.

Now to sage's questions. My guess from the nature of your post is that you are still a bit new to mixing. My recommendation would be leave the compressor off for now if you have a chance to get it mastered by a good mastering engineer. I agree with everyones sentiments about getting it the way you want it to sound, but compression on the 2-bus is an easy thing to screw up. at the very least I would print mixes with and without compression to bring to mastering. It will be a real shame if you get a chance to work with a good ME and their hands are tied.

I compress all my mixes, but rarely more than one or two dB, and if I do not have one of my fave mix compressors I just leave off the compression.

OK, so is there anyone else out there using a Focusrite Red 3 as a 2 bus compressor ?

If so, any suggestions on settings for this unit ? I have a Trident Series 80, and I'm figuring that I'll connect to the stereo bus inserts(send & return) on the patchbay so that I'll be mixing into the unit from the start.

I'm assuming that the settings should be gentle, like no more than 2-3 db of gain reduction.

I just thought to ask to see if somone more experienced with a Red 3 as a 2Bus compressor might have some helpful info. on how they set it.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by patrox247

Mxing into a 2 buss comp is very different than compressing the final mix. Having a comp on the 2 buss pulls things together rather quickly and if used correctly can somewhat help things gell (I hate the word glue). A lot of mastering engineers have seen the abuse of this (which leaves them screwed), and thus prefer mix engineers to be conservative. If you want that "crush everything to death with an SSL comp" sound, you are going to have to do that during the mix and not in mastering. During the mix, you are mixing "INTO" the comp.

+1 on the replies.
I agree. I use it as a mix tool, not mastering. different thing alltogether.

[ScumBum]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell;

The whole time!?!.

The stereo feed you listen to, should be (key words are "should be") the 2-buss.

Sorry guys I just woke up when I posted that


I meant to say when your mixing , when do you start mixing through the 2 bus COMPRESSOR !!

sorry forgot that last word ,

[Musiclab]

Absolutely positively on from the start

[patrox247]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Absolutely positively on from the start

I like to count to ten first.

[Resonant Alien]

Originally Posted by sage691

I was told by a TOP level mastering engineer to NOT bother compressing the 2 bus, and that the most important thing to him was that 4-6 db of headroom was available so he could do his super smash treatment for maximum loudness.

Is this the primary goal you want to achieve from the mastering process? If so, I wouldn't sweat it too much either way on using the comp during mixing because whatever glue or dyanmics you achieve with the buss comp will be destroyed by the super smash treatment anyway.