What do you use when the singer sucks?

[DoMD]

Thank you to those suggesting specific hardware. I'm following with interest. This project is for myself, for fun, so no sense telling me to quit. Cost isn't much of an obstacle, just threw out that $5K budget so I don't go too crazy. I've lurked long enough that I understand all the caveats.

[roger]

if it's just for fun then enjoy! - post some before and afters for our amusement also!
as a producer your job is to capture and recognise that golden take/performance....if mr cohen/zomby is incapable of giving you any gold whatsoever then i don't think you are gonna have much fun....but maybe that's just me....you may just have a blast polishing his turd.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Everybody smoke a big fattie. Then he (and everyone) will sound great!

[MooWahmBah]

Well ..you could approach the arrangements and instrumentation with a bizarre .....hey "this bad singer sounds good like this "...that is , if you want to work that hard and the "artist" is open to it ...
If we can tune it ....the next question for me is ....does he make you believe the lyrics ? ....if that`s on the table as a starting point ...... twist and mangle the arrangements until his voice sounds like it was supposed to go that direction ....If he `s not credible as an interpreter of song .... well ....then he`s just lousy ...go karaoke on the sucker

[Kestral]

"Good singing" to me falls under two categories:

1. Technically good (ie. Jeff Buckley, Chris Martin, Morrisey)

2. "Character" good (ie. Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan)

They are not mutually exclusive as there's singers that have a mix of both (ie. Bono, Frank Sinatra, Elvis)

imo, given you have to work with what you have, if the "technicals" are lacking, then it's time to pile on the character.

For me, I find that overdriving and overcompressing (ie. overdrive a Neve preamp and then slam it into an 1176/LA2A) adds tons of character to a sound, especially thin vocals.

Also, I like using a bandpass filter, this makes the midrange more present, upfront and in-your-face.

Another thing I've done is to get another singer to sing under the vocal and then blend them in a way that it reinforces the original singer, filling in the missing frequencies.

[tmcconnell]

Some people would say its not your problem. Others would say find the the weak spot (its either tonality, texture, or passion/delivery) and fix it.

I would say become a vocal coach. almost anyone can sing. Find one note thay can sing and make them stay on it, and create movement with the accompanyment. Tell them to sing like they will die in 5 minutes - the last sound they will ever make. Sinatra had questionable tonality, mose allison has whitebread texture, and madonna had no passion (imo of course). It didn't stop them. The huge mistake is to think you can fix it with gear. Yes, a pitch correction can rescue the song, the blood and guts passion can transcend that. Only give up if they don't mean it.

At that point, you say - "GREAT TAKE! We're done now. What's your address, I'll email you the mix. man, you rock! Did you bring your checkbook? What's your myspace page?"

[DoMD]

Ok, so after vocal lessons and pot smoking and years of engineering experience ...

If you're starting with nothing, and needed to buy something (singing directly into the harddrive doesn't work), what would you buy for this voice? (rob zombie covering leonard cohen is as accurate a description as I can come up with) Assuming it's the only thing you want to record.

So far I think the only mic suggested is the SM7 and for pre's we've got Avalon vt737 or UA 610 then LA-2A (good as LA-610 combo?), or 1176, or Distressor compression. Short list. Not necessarily a bad thing if that's the consensus but I'd love to hear more gear-specific opinions before I go shopping.

[roger]

you certainly don't want to go 'hi fi' so the sm7 and the 610 are good choices - it will be a pretty noisy little chain - no matter what compressor you pump it through coz the sm7 needs a bit of juice and the 610 hasn't got a lot to spare....noise may be the least of your worries though and in fact may be kinda cool. are you sure your 'friend' isn't actually yourself mr DoMD? me-myself-and rob zombie?!

[u b k]

Originally Posted by DoMD

So far I think the only mic suggested is the SM7 and for pre's we've got Avalon vt737 or UA 610 then LA-2A (good as LA-610 combo?), or 1176, or Distressor compression. Short list.

it's a short list that contains 2 of the most versatile compressors on the planet, and the third is impossible to get a bad sound out of.

your request is a tad on the absurd tip. matching a mic to a voice is probably the most specialized, in-the-moment, can't-tell-til-you-hear-it task any engineer can face. once i've heard the actual voice, i have a good sense of which piece in the locker stands a chance of working, but even then the potential for surprise is large.

the safest tip is to nab a workhorse --- sm7 is good, u47 clones are good, r84 is good --- plug it into another workhorse --- 512, 1073 --- and move on. you want specificity on a level that is impossible to give without simply shooting in the dark. anyone here can do that, but it's really no better than choosing something by throwing darts at a poster.

there is no piece of gear that will make an unpalatable voice palatable. as others have rightly said, the arrangement can help to mitigate the crap, as can production choices. but the real solution lays in changing the source itself, your voice.

or not. maybe everything is perfect just as it is, and your job is to simply capture the music and get on with life.


gregoire
del
ubk
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[Absolute]

Just do many many takes and piece it together. You may end up only using a few words from each take on a crappy singer. You dont have time to teach him

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by tmcconnell

I would say become a vocal coach. almost anyone can sing. Find one note thay can sing and make them stay on it, and create movement with the accompanyment. Tell them to sing like they will die in 5 minutes - the last sound they will ever make. Sinatra had questionable tonality, mose allison has whitebread texture, and madonna had no passion (imo of course). It didn't stop them.

Well, I've learned something about the art of singing today, much easier than I thaught it was !...

[liquidorange]

i have the answer!!!!!!! eBay: Be Next American Idol VOICE COACH DVD learn sing Abdul (item 260124722010 end time Jul-01-07 17:43:05 PDT)

[gabetx26]

Originally Posted by DoMD

Ok, so after vocal lessons and pot smoking and years of engineering experience ...

If you're starting with nothing, and needed to buy something (singing directly into the harddrive doesn't work), what would you buy for this voice? (rob zombie covering leonard cohen is as accurate a description as I can come up with) Assuming it's the only thing you want to record.

So far I think the only mic suggested is the SM7 and for pre's we've got Avalon vt737 or UA 610 then LA-2A (good as LA-610 combo?), or 1176, or Distressor compression. Short list. Not necessarily a bad thing if that's the consensus but I'd love to hear more gear-specific opinions before I go shopping.

This is the gear I would recommend if you go with the approach of tracking with the best quality possible and wait to mangle until the mixdown.

Pearlman TM-1=$1600(warm switch enabled) > Great River ME-1NV=$1075.00 (cranked almost into the red) > Purple MC77=$1650.00 (12:1 attack 5 release 7 input slammed around 36) total cost=$4325 before shipping. You end up under budget and have some great gear that will sound even better when you have a chance to put a GREAT singer in front of it .

[Grizzly]

Buying such expensive gear just to please a pitiful singer sounds really weird in my world, but after all...

[Sid Viscous]

I go for performance and move on.

[macleodgrant]

i would in this case double track everything, maybe even 3 times so it sounds very chorus like. i think mic and preamp choice are irrelevant

[drundall]

Originally Posted by DoMD

So I have this, erm .. friend ... yeah, and he's got a real lousy voice. Think Leonard Cohen doing a drunken duet with Rob Zombie. What would you put between him and the harddrive to make this abomination tolerable to an audience? Just your first instinct for a mic/pre/comp/eq chain. Got about a $5K budget. Not looking for miracles from any magic box, just to start with some good tools to try and polish this particular turd.

Is this for YOU then?

5K can buy a lot of singing lessons. That's your best investment, and the only wise choice. Barring wisdom, I'd go with the heavy metal pedal idea. Distort the piss out of it. You can do a lot with Melodyne, but it's not gonna sound right if it's way out of the ballpark to begin with. This is experience talking...

[kevbrowne]

Hi,I have found that when working with "challenging" vocalists,I dont think the specific gear is the issue. warm and crunchy is the direction to head.having said that I have found the s.e gemini to be very flattering. The best way to get a tune out is to have the vocal parts playing on a rhodes or something else friendly sounding and only attempt recording one melodic part at a time. Once the vocals are down,put the different parts on seperate tracks and set the autotune to only allow the notes in the melody to come through.
obviously tracking up the vocals makes all the difference,but try to keep the verses single tracked as it is nice to keep some personality and get the lyric across.
Dont forget to stand up,warm up and dont be afraid to sing out of tune at volume for a bit.
good luck!

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by edvdr76

I say get another singer......

+1...

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by DoMD

Ok, "fire him", "go practice", etc might be wise advice, but this is gearslutz.com so c'mon and ***** some hardware. I'm sure lots of you have been in this situation before ... What would you reach for if it was some spoiled punk kid with a rich father paying your bills?

The handle to my front door.........there is no happiness in wh*ring yourself out to spoilt punk kids with rich fathers and no talent. If they're generally nice people maybe give them a number to take away for some other bod/friend that is still happily wh*ring away....

[vernier]

This problem is old hat, and the way to fix is record lots of tracks, listen along the way and give constructive comments, record a ton more tracks, then spend a jillion hours comping.

You'll then have the best you can have.

[AB3]

A vocoder.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by vernier

This problem is old hat, and the way to fix is record lots of tracks, listen along the way and give constructive comments, record a ton more tracks, then spend a jillion hours comping.

You'll then have the best you can have.

oy...i'm getting tired just thinking about all that work.

i used to do it without even batting a lid -
so many millions of tracking and editing hours....oy

[Sharkus]

I would check the band first.
If they aren't really playing in a key and telling the singer what key it is, how is he supposed to follow anything.
All good singing is is do rae me fa so la ti do in a key.
usually the band doesn't know how to play in key and they blame the singer.

[Me_Likey]

Originally Posted by DoMD

So I have this, erm .. friend ... yeah, and he's got a real lousy voice. Think Leonard Cohen doing a drunken duet with Rob Zombie. What would you put between him and the harddrive to make this abomination tolerable to an audience? Just your first instinct for a mic/pre/comp/eq chain. Got about a $5K budget. Not looking for miracles from any magic box, just to start with some good tools to try and polish this particular turd.

If you're doing this for free, then stop. If you're getting paid then either grin and bear it or send him off to another, hungrier studio. Personally, I would rather dig ditches then put up with a CDs worth of sessions with an unlistenable singer. Been there, done that, life's too short.

[u b k]

whatever i got.

someone said they go for performance, i agree 100%. all the stacking and eventiding and delays wouldn't have mattered one damn bit if perry farrell wasn't so outrageously giving over on the jane's records.


gregoire
del
ubk
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[lordnielson]

[Kappi]

MY Solution....

[Unclenny]

Sing it....record it.

It is what it is.

The Train

[CasadeBomba]

There is no "right" way. However spending time on the song making sure it is a "good" song and the key is good for the singer will take you a long way.


Honesty with out being harsh is probably your best bet. I have no problem telling a client the truth about there ability. However I point to the guys that have gotten better over time and are doing great work now. So I ask "what are you doing to make your self better?". Sounds goofy but it works.

If I don't tell them I know eventually a producer down the line will tell them not so nicely.


If it just plain stinks walk them thru the song phrase by phrase and word by word if you have to. This usually will have them cussing you by the end of the evening. Send them home and melodyne it. Make it the best you can.


Good Luck,


Ric