Does size matter?Room size know any good acousticians?

FOURTHTUNZ · 26th October 2002

I am looking to move to a larger building but have been wondering what size rooms I should be shooting for, that is what kind of return will I get? My drum room is about 23*13*9.5 and my control room is 15*13.
So those of you that have moved up to larger rooms, was it worth it? Was your drum sound better going up to a space 22*34 or larger, did the mixes end up better mixed in a larger space?
I am wondering if my money would be better spent staying where I am?
Can you get anybody to design anything for under 20k?
Daniel

Wiggy Neve Slut · 26th October 2002

If you manage to wade through some books and websites.. you can get a general understanding of how things work. so when u actually do call someone that costs!!!! you have 1/2 an idea of what they are on about.. Its also help to understand how sound works and will make postive impact upon your engineering skills as well.

I was doing a bulding degree a few yrs ago and we spent a semester doing internal sound dynamics and accoustics... im no expert (theres a reason they cost so much these ppl!.. and its cos they are so pedantic and anal and so maths based it bores me shitless.. but i digress) but it did make me think again when i was engineering afterwards like where i set up mic etc. I also asked the lecturer so many questions about studio shit she treatened to make me pay her for more info... lol

PEACE
Wiggy

thethrillfactor · 26th October 2002

If you are looking to record drums in your new space, your problem will be your ceiling height. Sound naturally wants to go up more than sideways.(where you have plenty of room). The best drum rooms in the world(for eg Avatar/Power Station) have tall ceilings and its not gigantic(L x W). Your best bet is to use your control room space for drums(taller ceilings) and use the live room space for the control room(you can get away with a lower ceiling).

And to answer your other question, yeah I am sure you can get someone to design it for your price. The big costs will be in labor/construction and materials, not to mention your HVAC system.

You can always hire someone in town to build it with the acoustician designs. You would just have to serve as your own foreman and watch there work carefully.

FOURTHTUNZ · 26th October 2002

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thethrillfactor
[B]If you are looking to record drums in your new space, your problem will be your ceiling height. Sound naturally wants to go up more than sideways.(where you have plenty of room). The best drum rooms in the world(for eg Avatar/Power Station) have tall ceilings and its not gigantic(L x W). Your best bet is to use your control room space for drums(taller ceilings) and use the live room space for the control room(you can get away with a lower ceiling).

Wiggy, I have a little knowledge about acoustics but you know what hey say about that...
Thrill,I guess I forgot to give the ceiling height in my control room
it also has a 9.5 ft ceiling that has been lowered to an 8ft suspended ceiling, I guess the idea was to use the dead space above the ceiling as a bass trap? I could expand the drum room a little where I am from 22*13*9.5 to say 26*17*9.5 I guess the ceiling could be brougt up to 14.5 if I tear out the ceiling and go rightup to the roof but... It seems to me the better studios have larger demensions for the kit room and the control room like
34*22*16 or so. I guess part of this was finding out from people like you that are recording big bands in real world, how small a drum room can be and still get a "commercial" sound. I have a chance to buy a barn that has been converted into a house that has been in my family for about 100 years, my Great Grandfather helped bootleggers during prohibition by storing and transporting booze there, so its got a neat history, even though he got
busted

This barn still has a room that is 20*45 and goes right up to the room beams about 50 ft at the peak! Anyway this would cost some major$$ to get the way that I want so I wonder if I should just stay where I am,sorry about the ramble
Danielgrggt grggt

hollywood_steve · 26th October 2002

This barn still has a room that is 20*45 and goes right up to the room beams about 50 ft at the peak! Anyway this would cost some major$$ to get the way that I want so I wonder if I should just stay where I am
*******************************

Personally, I'd sell my soul tomorrow for a space like that. We are just coming on line in our new studio and lack of room size is a big issue for me. OUr control room is a good size for a low budget room (20x17x10) but the live room (which was originally 30x17x10) has been broken up into 3 smaller rooms. As someone who likes to record as "live" as possible, size is hugely important. But we all gotta make do.....

Except you! you have an incredible opportunity, but only you can decide if its right for you.

good luck

steve
lex125@pacbell.net
http://home.pacbell.net/sjp/

thethrillfactor · 27th October 2002

My rule of thumb on live rooms is "the taller the better". Heck you don't need such a wide room(it helps though especially if you are recording a lot of people at once). For a great drum booth a tall ceiling is crucial and essential. As for the control room, nowadays because of space limitations we are starting to see a lot of "low ceiling" control rooms(as low as 8ft) even in the big studios. You do need a lot of front end dissipation though(for eg ceiling to the console) but it can be done. I think Bob Clearmountains control room at his MIX THIS studio is like this. The reason for such wide control rooms is for comfortability if anything(when you have a lot of people). The Barn thing sounds interesting. I saw in one of the last issues of MIX a guy who did the same thing, turned his barn into a studio and it was beautiful. Itn didn't sound like it was super expensive.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
[B]

Quote:

[i]
Wiggy, I have a little knowledge about acoustics but you know what hey say about that...
Thrill,I guess I forgot to give the ceiling height in my control room
it also has a 9.5 ft ceiling that has been lowered to an 8ft suspended ceiling, I guess the idea was to use the dead space above the ceiling as a bass trap? I could expand the drum room a little where I am from 22*13*9.5 to say 26*17*9.5 I guess the ceiling could be brougt up to 14.5 if I tear out the ceiling and go rightup to the roof but... It seems to me the better studios have larger demensions for the kit room and the control room like
34*22*16 or so. I guess part of this was finding out from people like you that are recording big bands in real world, how small a drum room can be and still get a "commercial" sound. I have a chance to buy a barn that has been converted into a house that has been in my family for about 100 years, my Great Grandfather helped bootleggers during prohibition by storing and transporting booze there, so its got a neat history, even though he got
busted
This barn still has a room that is 20*45 and goes right up to the room beams about 50 ft at the peak! Anyway this would cost some major$$ to get the way that I want so I wonder if I should just stay where I am,sorry about the ramble
Danielgrggt grggt

Henchman · 27th October 2002

Height is definitely important. Go as high as you can. This will keep all of the bad reflections out of the overhead mics.

FOURTHTUNZ · 28th October 2002

Who do you guys recommend for design? East Coast USA
Thanks
Daniel

FOURTHTUNZ · 1st November 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by Henchman
Height is definitely important. Go as high as you can. This will keep all of the bad reflections out of the overhead mics.

Ok, but how high is too high or high enough? I recorded my crap band in the barn I speak of last summer and ran my overheads about 4ft over the cymbals,which would have left about 40 ft above them and the sound was good but I don't think I would have wanted to run the mics any higher. Them room was untreated,but I can't stop thinking about how cool it would be to have it for a live room! The garage in this place is about 20*80 with a sloped roof that goes from 12 up to maybe 20 ft at the highest, maybe that would be a better spot for a studio?
How high is the ceiling in your live room, is it sloped?
Who do you recommend for studio design?
I do wish to state that I am not wealthy, that I am not in a large market and that this larger better studio will require me to work until I am put in the ground and may cause my wife to help me have an "accident" but for the most part I'd like to see what it sounds like cranked to 11.

Daniel

Henchman · 1st November 2002

It's not a matter of placing the mic's higher. The issue is reflections bouncing off of the ceiling and getting picked up by the mic's. If you have a low ceiling, you can always hear it intespecially the overheads.

FOURTHTUNZ · 1st November 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by Henchman
It's not a matter of placing the mic's higher. The issue is reflections bouncing off of the ceiling and getting picked up by the mic's. If you have a low ceiling, you can always hear it intespecially the overheads.

Oh yeah, I agree, I'm just trying to find out what the big boys do!
I visited your site, looks really good! Your ceilings are 12' do you do alot of drums there? I've been limited to 9.5' ceilings for the last 12 years and I have found that how the drummer interacts with the kit and my learning how they interact with it to be very key in placing the kit mics but especially the overheads.
So I'm on a visionquest for a new recording space

Daniel

Henchman · 2nd November 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ

Oh yeah, I agree, I'm just trying to find out what the big boys do!
I visited your site, looks really good! Your ceilings are 12' do you do alot of drums there?

Her's a link to some MP3's of drums recorded int he room.

Omnichord

groundcontrol · 2nd November 2002

The best drum room I recorded in was also the tallest. It had a 26' ceiling with wood diffusors on it as well as a giant kick-ass bass trap in one end of the room and a well mixed variety of wood (mainly)/glass/stone/sheet rock with soft surfaces thrown in. (And thick curtains over mirror/windows that you could open/close to change the hi-end response of the room.) Quite nice!

Daniel, I'd be happy to get only the garage part. Tell me if you want to sell it... It might cost a bit for shipping though.

FOURTHTUNZ · 2nd November 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by Henchman

Her's a link to some MP3's of drums recorded int he room.

Omnichord

Henchman, they sound great! What are the demensions of your drum room? Do you mind sharing what the micing techniques were? It looks like your space is a pro design? Was it worth the money?

"Daniel, I'd be happy to get only the garage part. Tell me if you want to sell it... It might cost a bit for shipping though"

Groundcontrol, I don't own this building yet, its been a dream for a long time, but I'm not sure I want to go that far into debt!
Thanks guys, Daniel

Henchman · 2nd November 2002

Actually, the place was designed by my business partner and myself. The ceiling is about 12 feet high.

The room is about 15X20. However, when I worked at The Plant in Sausalito, they had a smallish Iso booth/Hallway with high ceilings and all hard drywall and stone surfaces, that sounded amazing.

Remeber, you can always upgrade gear. Once you build a shitty room, you're stuck with it.

FOURTHTUNZ · 2nd November 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by Henchman
Actually, the place was designed by my business partner and myself. The ceiling is about 12 feet high.

The room is about 15X20. However, when I worked at The Plant in Sausalito, they had a smallish Iso booth/Hallway with high ceilings and all hard drywall and stone surfaces, that sounded amazing.

Remeber, you can always upgrade gear. Once you build a shitty room, you're stuck with it.

Henchman, thanks for the input! I'm going to focus more on my current room now that I've heard your stuff!
I'm going to get someone in here to see whats possible.
I don't have as much gear as some places but I'm getting a pretty good sound now and I think I'm at the end of the rainbow as far buying much more gear

If I can improve my rooms I think it'll be a good investment, thanks again
daniel

26th October 2002	#1
FOURTHTUNZ Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: MAINE Posts: 754 Thread Starter	Does size matter?Room size know any good acousticians? I am looking to move to a larger building but have been wondering what size rooms I should be shooting for, that is what kind of return will I get? My drum room is about 23139.5 and my control room is 1513. So those of you that have moved up to larger rooms, was it worth it? Was your drum sound better going up to a space 2234 or larger, did the mixes end up better mixed in a larger space? I am wondering if my money would be better spent staying where I am? Can you get anybody to design anything for under 20k? Daniel

26th October 2002	#5
hollywood_steve Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: uh..... Hollywood Posts: 1,242	room size This barn still has a room that is 2045 and goes right up to the room beams about 50 ft at the peak! Anyway this would cost some major$$ to get the way that I want so I wonder if I should just stay where I am ****************************** Personally, I'd sell my soul tomorrow for a space like that. We are just coming on line in our new studio and lack of room size is a big issue for me. OUr control room is a good size for a low budget room (20x17x10) but the live room (which was originally 30x17x10) has been broken up into 3 smaller rooms. As someone who likes to record as "live" as possible, size is hugely important. But we all gotta make do..... Except you! you have an incredible opportunity, but only you can decide if its right for you. good luck steve lex125@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/sjp/

27th October 2002	#7
Henchman Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: LA, USA Posts: 6,709	Height is definitely important. Go as high as you can. This will keep all of the bad reflections out of the overhead mics. __________________ www.markhensley.tv IMDB Credits

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26th October 2002	#2
Wiggy Neve Slut Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,194	If you manage to wade through some books and websites.. you can get a general understanding of how things work. so when u actually do call someone that costs!!!! you have 1/2 an idea of what they are on about.. Its also help to understand how sound works and will make postive impact upon your engineering skills as well. I was doing a bulding degree a few yrs ago and we spent a semester doing internal sound dynamics and accoustics... im no expert (theres a reason they cost so much these ppl!.. and its cos they are so pedantic and anal and so maths based it bores me shitless.. but i digress) but it did make me think again when i was engineering afterwards like where i set up mic etc. I also asked the lecturer so many questions about studio shit she treatened to make me pay her for more info... lol PEACE Wiggy

26th October 2002	#3
thethrillfactor Gear Guru Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 14,176	If you are looking to record drums in your new space, your problem will be your ceiling height. Sound naturally wants to go up more than sideways.(where you have plenty of room). The best drum rooms in the world(for eg Avatar/Power Station) have tall ceilings and its not gigantic(L x W). Your best bet is to use your control room space for drums(taller ceilings) and use the live room space for the control room(you can get away with a lower ceiling). And to answer your other question, yeah I am sure you can get someone to design it for your price. The big costs will be in labor/construction and materials, not to mention your HVAC system. You can always hire someone in town to build it with the acoustician designs. You would just have to serve as your own foreman and watch there work carefully.

28th October 2002	#8
FOURTHTUNZ Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: MAINE Posts: 754 Thread Starter	Who do you guys recommend for design? East Coast USA Thanks Daniel

1st November 2002	#10
Henchman Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: LA, USA Posts: 6,709	It's not a matter of placing the mic's higher. The issue is reflections bouncing off of the ceiling and getting picked up by the mic's. If you have a low ceiling, you can always hear it intespecially the overheads.

2nd November 2002	#13
groundcontrol Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 504	The best drum room I recorded in was also the tallest. It had a 26' ceiling with wood diffusors on it as well as a giant kick-ass bass trap in one end of the room and a well mixed variety of wood (mainly)/glass/stone/sheet rock with soft surfaces thrown in. (And thick curtains over mirror/windows that you could open/close to change the hi-end response of the room.) Quite nice! Daniel, I'd be happy to get only the garage part. Tell me if you want to sell it... It might cost a bit for shipping though.