amek 9098 mic pres are they comparable to other neve stuff?

[Studio Addict]

It's a fukking mic pre; buy it, use it, and move on. If things sound bad, it's the performance or the performer. The best records in the history of the universe were done without a single care about which mic pre was used.

[The Byre]

Are you trying to tell us that a vintage Amek pre will NOT get me a Grammy?

[walth]

Originally Posted by deve

A two channel amek 9098 pre poped up in my area for a good price. How is its character? Is it comparable to great river?(that's the only neve clone I've worked with) And for what type of music would it be suitable?

they're very clean sounding and the eq is great. quality stuff. they have a single channel with eq and a two channel 1r preamp.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Are you trying to tell us that a vintage Amek pre will NOT get me a Grammy?

A great song and performance might get you a Grammy. Even on a Mackie board. But this is just a discussion about what WE can do to make that song sound its best. I owned that mic pre, and I've owned a lot of them, and plenty of cheap ones. The 9098 actually stands out in my memory as sounding pretty bad.

[rocksure]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

The 9098 actually stands out in my memory as sounding pretty bad.

I've already stated earlier that I like them...specially the EQ. Plenty of other people on here like them. Interestingly, some people, like you don't like them.

What this shows is that we are all different in what we look for and how we hear things.
Which leads to the questions.......for somebody looking to buy a preamp, who's opinion should they believe? and...just how useful are opinions on forums for people looking to purchase gear?
I guess in the end it's an individual thing, opinions need to be taken with a pinch of salt, and the only real way to know if you will like something is to try it yourself and see if YOU like it rather than just relying on other opinions. Use forum opinions as only a rough gauge.

[Slipperman]

I think the rack units sound pretty good.

The desk sounds AMAZING.

I did EXTENSIVE shootout of the 9098i desk pre's against a BEWILDERING array of outboard pre's of all vintages and types with Fletcher for MONTHS back in 2003.

Something like 70 of them.

70.

Including weirdo boutique stuff none of you guys are EVER gonna get yer mitts on. That's because we had the only existing beta units here and the actual models were never manufactured.

Like the 5 channel Hamptone prototype. Which sounded brutal but had a tendency to CATCH ON FIRE. True story.

Anyhoo.

Across MONTHS of recording: The 9098i pre's were not ALWAYS the best pre for any job... But they were always better than respectable compared to ANYTHING we tested...

And they WERE the best pre more often than any other single pre we tested.

Absolutely SHAMING many pre's people laud endlessly here on GS in a myriad of applications.

Sorry, but if you can't get a totally usable sound out of a 9098 pre on just about any conceivable sound source...

I pity you.

No really.

Pity.

As a side note:

Jim Williams is to be wholly ignored as he has a grudge/pissing match with AMEK that stretches back 20 years.

He simply can't let go of it.

Don't take MY WORD FOR IT:

Do a forum search by author and AMEK... you'll laugh yer ass off.

He tells the same hackneyed, self-aggrandizing story about his battle with company testing the old Mozart RN back in the early 90's quite a few times.

Apparently... he views himself as JW/David vs. AMEK/Goliath.

It's a sad, boring, egregious and vindictive AGENDA as far as I can tell.

It matters not.

When the last of the silly GS fashion police/rumor mill, and AES buzz word BS fades... the 9098i will stand up as one of, if not THE most, impressive achievement in the HISTORY of the "modern style/full function" LFAC.

I'm certainly planning on having mine as long as I'm still breathing.

Hafta see how that goes.

And for that time, however long it is... I'll be using it to go places I wholeheartedly believe others will NEVER BE ABLE TO GET TO utilizing inferior technology.


Sorry to bust the GS mantra bubble...

But, all indians being created equal:

It's the INDIAN WITH THE BEST ARROWS.

Not a f*cking thing anybody can do to stop that.

HOHOHO.

Kinda.

SM.

[kbshearer]

Never stop posting. Ever.


Kirt Shearer

[Sounds Great]

Of course the desk pres' are not the same as the rack unit.

Ty Ford once made a recommendation of the 9098 Pre/eq unit together with a Gefell M900 mic sounding amazing on electric guitar amp. I took a chance and spent quite a bit to try this combo. I ended up loving that mic on the cabinet but the pre not so much, sounded kind of rubbery or gooy to my ear. Then I ended up with a Hardy M1 and that mic and it truly is a beautiful thing. But of course as always, ymmv.

[rocksure]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Of course the desk pres' are not the same as the rack unit.

Ty Ford once made a recommendation of the 9098 Pre/eq unit together with a Gefell M900 mic sounding amazing on electric guitar amp. I took a chance and spent quite a bit to try this combo. I ended up loving that mic on the cabinet but the pre not so much, sounded kind of rubbery or gooy to my ear. Then I ended up with a Hardy M1 and that mic and it truly is a beautiful thing. But of course as always, ymmv.

So did you try it on other sources or was that the only one? They would not be my first choice preamp on an electric guitar amp...but I have used them for that and they do a good job of it all the same.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by rocksure

So did you try it on other sources or was that the only one? They would not be my first choice preamp on an electric guitar amp...but I have used them for that and they do a good job of it all the same.

No, at those times I usually had one high end pre at a time, so I used it for lots of stuff with different microphones. Previous I had Aphex, API, TL Audio and others as well as different low end board preamps. And after I had Hardy and Millennia. Never noticed this spongy effect from anything else.

[Studio507]

I used a 9098 rackmount with a neuman tlm 103 every day for years and recorded nearly every rapper you can name on it as well as guitars (elec & acoustic) and upright bass. Never disappointed me. Great piece of gear.

[rocksure]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

No, at those times I usually had one high end pre at a time, so I used it for lots of stuff with different microphones. Previous I had Aphex, API, TL Audio and others as well as different low end board preamps. And after I had Hardy and Millennia. Never noticed this spongy effect from anything else.

OK fair enough.....one man's meat is another man's poison. That's what makes the world of audio interesting I guess.

[Doc_]

Fletcher and Slipper speak the truth...if you can't make it happen with 9098 your broken!

9098 sounds as good a desk EVER made...mind blowing really...


the channel is..well... a channel...

[Pgraf88]

The eq on the channel strip is fantastic, worth the price of admission alone, saved my butt on more than one occasion.

[oudplayer]

Just used a pair of the EQs for a tough mixing project where no other EQ seemed to work well; the massive passive made this particular source (an oud) sound too mushy; the LilFreQ (which I normally love) exacerbated some mild harshness in the 4-6k band, and ISA110s (originals) sounded horrible. These are all EQs I've used successfully on other sound sources, but I still can always find a use for 9098 rackmount EQs. The pres are decent (and I've used them plenty), but can sound a bit sterile or harsh on sound sources with a ton of high transient stuff going on. But for $1250 (what they seem to go for these days), you're basically buying an excellent EQ with a bonus utility preamp that works great on many sources and can be made to work for almost anything; I'd always prefer a John Hardy or Gordon or GML, but those are significantly more expensive.

[Upfront2K]

Originally Posted by oudplayer

Just used a pair of the EQs for a tough mixing project where no other EQ seemed to work well; the massive passive made this particular source (an oud) sound too mushy; the LilFreQ (which I normally love) exacerbated some mild harshness in the 4-6k band, and ISA110s (originals) sounded horrible. These are all EQs I've used successfully on other sound sources, but I still can always find a use for 9098 rackmount EQs. The pres are decent (and I've used them plenty), but can sound a bit sterile or harsh on sound sources with a ton of high transient stuff going on. But for $1250 (what they seem to go for these days), you're basically buying an excellent EQ with a bonus utility preamp that works great on many sources and can be made to work for almost anything; I'd always prefer a John Hardy or Gordon or GML, but those are significantly more expensive.

I agree with you. I bought two brand new in a box 9098's yrs ago from a guy in Chicago for two grand. I consider it one of the best deals I've ever made and I never ever thought of selling them nor would I. The EQ alone as many have pointed out is worth the price of admission. Love my 9098's they're fantastic.

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Not to me, that was quite a long time ago. I don't ever need to bring that back up because you do for me, regularly. I can count on it about every 3 months or so. You got to let that go, it's eating you up insides.

Jim. It's a constant source of real hilarity to me.

Don't ever stop.

Here's a little compilation of some of my faves.

One as recent as a coupla weeks ago!!

ENJOY!

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I've also measured an AMEK Mozart RN at -44 db stereo crosstalk, that console sold for around $180k.

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I wrote the review of the "new" Mozart RN for REP magazine back in the early 1990's.

My experience is with the RN installed at the Bakery in North Hollywood, CA, a block from AMEK USA. I used Audio Precision hardware to test and measure the console. AMEK sent along their USA head tech to "be sure" everything was tested properly. It was.

Results showed -44 db stereo crosstalk at 10k hz. Group to group crosstalk was very good, around -80 db at 10k hz. Ringing was measured in the RN mic preamps. The AMEK tech had no answers but said he would get some. I never got a response from AMEK. The article was published and AMEK lost a multi-million dollar console sale to Paramount Pictures in North Carolina. Yes, all the Audio Precision plots are also published in that article if you want to look it up.

Yes, AMEK was not happy. They called the editor and threatend to never advertize again in REP, the editor stood by me and told them they never bought ads anyway. Then Rupert Neve calls the editor and gives a CYA explanation on how he wasn't responsible for that design, even though it has his name attached to it. I offered to modem over (pre internot) the test files so AMEK could load them into their floor Audio Precision analyzer to repeat the tests, they declined that offer.

In as I've not seen another RN since, I can't say if those problems were corrected in later releases. All I know is the Bakery's console had problems and it was showcased as the best AMEK had to offer at that time.

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Some like the AMEK Mozart RN version measured only -44 db stereo crosstalk at 10k hz, the most offending frequency. Some like my Soundcraft reach -90 db at 10k hz. Most sit at around -60 db at 10k hz.

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

If you can, run a wide frequency sweep of those Mozart mic inputs. When I did the review on it for REP magazine I found a ringing/rising hf response above 50k hz. I'm wondering if they ever fixed that.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I found the RN designed mic pre's did have hf ringing, a design flaw. The biggest problem I found was the stereo crosstalk, it measured only -44 db at 10k hz. It did cause a bit of a stink with Amek after the REP review came out, they wouldn't talk to me for several years. It was the Audio Precision plots I printed in the review that they probably didn't like, it's hard to argue with a test plot. The factory told me they were aware of these problems and were fixing it. I don't know if they ever did or not. Rupert did make a CYA call to REP after it came out.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Anyone considering the purchase of an RN Mozart should review the article I did on it for the defunct REP magazine back in '94. I found a few design flaws that could not be explained by AMEK or Rupert.

First, the RN input modules preamp has a design flaw that caused a 6~8 db ringing above 100k hz. I never got an explanation for that. The RN master module measured the worst stereo crosstalk I've ever measured in a large format console, it was -44 db. This was testing Andy Baker's console a block away from AMEK USA headquarters. They even sent their top tech along just to be sure everything was done "properly".

Rupert did call REP to explain he had nothing to do with the master module design, a CYA call for sure. He did not address the problems in the mic preamp.
AMEK called REP after publication and threated to sue the magazine for the facts and AP plots that were published. After I offered to modem over my test results so they could load them on their AP and duplicate the tests, I didn't ever hear back from them.

Paramount Pictures had 3 large, fully loaded RN's on order for their new Wilmington, NC facility. After they read the review, they cancelled the million dollar order from AMEK. That pissed off AMEK so much they didn't talk to me for years after that.

It's OK, I'm used to that. No one likes the party spoiler, do they?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

-50~55 db, not so good. That's worse than a Tascam Portastudio. The worse I measued in high end stuff was -44 db in a Rupert Neve AMEK Mozart.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I've already given Mr. Langley some design tips in private conversations, thank you. Rupert is still mad at me for the scathing but accurate review of the disasterous AMEK Mozart console I did for REP magazine in the early 90's.

Yes, not the mic pre input, (which can use better transistors and opamps) but the outputs use them. Although the bandwidth measured ok on the Audio Precision, the slop and phase response was not very good. I'm sure Bill Whitlock could also rip these a new one if he ran them through his comtran software analysis program. These transformers sound funny to me, that usually means they won't test too well either. The 5534/33079 opamps also sound like squat to me, Hello Rupert, there's some better stuff out there.

Then again, I'm the first to say that lot's of recordists like a certain amount and flavor of dirt with their music.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

REP magazine used to do honest reviews, I know, I did a few. I would review the features, comment on the sonics and then rip it apart with the Audio Precision analyzer. Sometimes it didn't look too good. I would always contact the manufacturer if I found serious problems first for comments or potential corrections. If they blew me off, I would run it as is.

I once found bad design flaws on the AMEK Mozart console. I ran it honest and they wouldn't talk to me for years. They threatend to sue, I offered to modem over the test results, they then shut up about it. They lost a multi million dollar sale to Paramount Pictures as a result of that review. I still feel good about that today.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Yeah, those were the days... I loved that mag. I ended up writing for them the last few years they were around. I got to do some stinging reviews. One I did on the AMEK Mozart RN and found some disturbing test results with the Audio Precision. The editor printed it accuractly and it really pissed AMEK off. They threatend not to advertise, sue, etc. until I offered to modem over the AP test results so they could run them on the factory floor. Even Rupert the Neve called and said it wasn't "my fault". AMEK wouldn't talk to me for several years after that.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Ameks like the Mozart offer -80 db crosstalk on the groups, but the RN master measures only -45 db, not too good.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

That Mozart RN pre has a serious design flaw, like 6+ db peaking at 200k hz! Don't forget the 44db stereo crosstalk. Don't forget the custom AMEK bullet he did some work on, (that he conveniently forgot to write up schematics on). That mic pre is also a disaster with it's thick film construction as is the Rupert thick film EQ circuit with it's wonderful sounding ceramic EQ caps. Those 9098 pre's can also be mucho improved as Rupert the Neve seems to be stuck in using chip designs older than many of you reading this.

HEY! It's not 1975 anymore.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

You can believe the AP test results. They don't spin nor lie. I still have them saved to disc if you want to load them in a System One and re-test yourself. Amek was so nervous about me doing these tests that they insisted that their head US tech go along so "it would be done properly". The Amek tech saw the same results and was as mystified as I was. He said he would call England and find out what the deal was. The answer they fed him was "Rupert is working on it". Right. It was never fixed. If you don't think -44 db stereo crosstalk is a problem, you must be mixing in mono.

Try this test: Run a 400 hz oscillator into a RN input module. Bring up the level until the peak light stays on. You should now be clipping the tops of the waveform. Now, buss the signal to the stereo mix. Pan it hard left. Now, bring up only the right side and crank it into the monitors. Listen. Hear that? It's called capacitive crosstalk and you will hear it only 44 db down from the reference output.

Do the same test on my Soundcrafts and you will hear nothing, just a tiny bit of hiss. Tests confirm this as it measures - 90 db crosstalk. Don't know about the rest of you but I like wide stereo.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Anyone considering an Amek Mozart should read the review I wrote for REP magazine in 1994 on it. It was an extensive review which covered all the features, listening tests and full Audio Precision tests.

The last part is what caused all the trouble. I measured a 6 db rise at 200k in the "Rupert" mic pre's. Stereo crosstalk was measured at -44 db. This is the worst crosstalk measurment I've ever done, far worse than the standard in Brit consoles, -60 db.

After the editor informed Amek of this problem, they said Rupert was working on it. Later after the magazine was published, Amek made an angry call to REP saying it was all lies and that they would sue and never advertise again. Rupert made a CYA call himself. (Don't shoot the piano player).

This quicky quieted down when I offered to modem over my AP test results so they could run the same tests on a Mozart on the factory floor. I guess they knew about it all along.

What really pissed off the Amek folks was that Paramount had a 1 million $ order for 3 full loaded consoles for their new facility in N.C. Once they read the review, they cancelled the order.

They would't talk to me at trade shows for years after that. I'm still proud of the fact that the truth about it came out and the emperor was wearing no clothes.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I made some real trouble for a few companies by being honest and objective. Paramount Pictures cancelled a million dollar order for three fully loaded Amek Mozart RN consoles after they read the article in which I took Amek to task for poor performing modules and piss poor crosstalk measurements.

Rupert Neve even called to say it wasn't any of HIS fault!
"Don't shoot me, I'm just the piano player"

Needless to say, the Amek folks didn't want to talk to me at trade shows. They threatend to cancel any future advertising with REP. The editor told me not to worry as Amek didn't advertise much anyway and the mag got some needed respect out of it.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Ahh me. Yer right Jim!

Certainly doesn't look like a grudge agenda to me.

Tell the JW/David vs. AMEK/Goliath story again Uncle Jim!

Pretty please with peaches on top!?

SM.

[rocksure]

Ah..the return of the Slipperman v Jim Williams duel!

Pistols at dawn I say!!

Only if he is shot, and the mask was removed could we ever know who the mysterious slipperman is!...................................................

But then that only happens in movies......................so we are left to wonder for another year who the man in the mask actually is.........


but he gets my thumbs up on the 9098

[DaveUK]

Takes about 1 minute to find out:+)

[rocksure]

Originally Posted by DaveUK

Takes about 1 minute to find out:+)

Actually it took me a little bit more than a minute.....and the 9098i in there looks great!

[RFZ DUDE]

as soon as the gain switch on the 9098 goes bad you are f****.
no replacements available.
they can sound good though.

[skybluerental]

Originally Posted by Slipperman

Jim. It's a constant source of real hilarity to me.

Don't ever stop.

Here's a little compilation of some of my faves.

One as recent as a coupla weeks ago!!

ENJOY!

Ahh me. Yer right Jim!

Certainly doesn't look like a grudge agenda to me.

Tell the JW/David vs. AMEK/Goliath story again Uncle Jim!

Pretty please with peaches on top!?

SM.

whats your point?

the guy did some tests on a console and thought there were problems.
said results were published in a rag and ruffled some feathers.

there is nothing wrong with him sharing his findings with other perspective buyers/users on GS.
that is why some people come here.

one thing i notice in all these quotes is that he is very consistent in his comments.
it hardly seems like a personal attack on Amek with no substance.

on the other hand, YOU seem quite obsessed with the whole thing........

kind of stalker style.

hmmmmmm.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by rocksure

Ah..the return of the Slipperman v Jim Williams duel!

Pistols at dawn I say!!

Only if he is shot, and the mask was removed could we ever know who the mysterious slipperman is!...................................................

But then that only happens in movies......................so we are left to wonder for another year who the man in the mask actually is.........


but he gets my thumbs up on the 9098

It's really no mystery who Slippy is

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

How do you ever have any time left over for mixing?

3am. Laying in bed on the laptop. After a 14 billable hour day.

You joined the site a coupla years after me... and you have more than 5 times as many posts as I do. I'm sorry... What?

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

As to funny, most jokes are only funny once. HO HO HO.

No. No. No. The really great jokes are wholly inadvertent and just get BETTER and BETTER every time ya see/tell them.

Your aforementioned posts are a case in point.

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

However, I did enjoy reading my old comments. Spot on and I wouldn't change a word.

Hey! I was happy to spend 10 minutes rounding them up for posterity's sake.
The wife was out like a light and I was working on my carpel tunnel on the laptop!

Originally Posted by skybluerental

whats your point?

the guy did some tests on a console and thought there were problems.
said results were published in a rag and ruffled some feathers.

there is nothing wrong with him sharing his findings with other perspective buyers/users on GS.
that is why some people come here.

one thing i notice in all these quotes is that he is very consistent in his comments.
it hardly seems like a personal attack on Amek with no substance.

on the other hand, YOU seem quite obsessed with the whole thing........

kind of stalker style.

hmmmmmm.

Yer right, I'm internot-stalking some DigiKey/Mouser-nerd who's gonna solve world poverty with hi-speed video op-amps.

...

Happy to add you to the stalker list if you'd like?

Anyhoo.

My point is, in my humble estimation, old Jimbo-Jum needs a good shoe in the nads every once in a while to at least make SOME effort to keep him in line, and I'm just the man for the job.

See... For a guy who's designed and marketed ONE TINY pre-amp circuit in his career... He has a long history of talking a ton of sh*t about manufactured audio products, and by proxy THE FOLKS WHO DEVISE THEM as though he is some kinda expert in anything regarding the DESIGN, MANUFACTURE, AND MARKETING of such audio devices.

A very different world than "slap some more expensive components in there after the fact, break yer arm patting yerself on the back, and marvel at the improvements on the AP printout".

Do a little searching around here in the various threads Jim has posted in(THOUSANDS of them)... I am HARDLY ALONE in this assessment.

I'm just somebody who doesn't give a f*ck about calling people out on nitwit BS on GS.

Hey! It's entirely possible Jim and I suffer from 2 different flavors of the same delusion.

HOHOHO.

Best regards,


SM.

[rocksure]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

It's really no mystery who Slippy is

On one side of this argument you have a person who may have an unreasonable bias against Amek, which perhaps translates to their dislike of the 9098, and on the other side you have someone with a facility that has 3 Ameks, including the Mozart and a 9098 so is obviously an Amek fan.

The intersting thing to me, and questions that I haven't seen answered (or have I missed it in another thread somewhere?) is whether the JW assessment of the Mozart in an old magazine was correct or not, and if so was the issue ever addressed by Amek, or does nobody really care because it worked fine as it was?

[skybluerental]

Originally Posted by Slipperman

Yer right, I'm internot-stalking some DigiKey/Mouser-nerd who's gonna solve world poverty with hi-speed video op-amps.

...

Happy to add you to the stalker list if you'd like?

Anyhoo.

My point is, in my humble estimation, old Jimbo-Jum needs a good shoe in the nads every once in a while to at least make SOME effort to keep him in line, and I'm just the man for the job.

See... For a guy who's designed and marketed ONE TINY pre-amp circuit in his career... He has a long history of talking a ton of sh*t about manufactured audio products, and by proxy THE FOLKS WHO DEVISE THEM as though he is some kinda expert in anything regarding the DESIGN, MANUFACTURE, AND MARKETING of such audio devices.

A very different world than "slap some more expensive components in there after the fact, break yer arm patting yerself on the back, and marvel at the improvements on the AP printout".

Do a little searching around here in the various threads Jim has posted in(THOUSANDS of them)... I am HARDLY ALONE in this assessment.

I'm just somebody who doesn't give a f*ck about calling people out on nitwit BS on GS.

Hey! It's entirely possible Jim and I suffer from 2 different flavors of the same delusion.

HOHOHO.

Best regards,


SM.

oh SM, you are a treasure.
i would be honored to be stalked by you any day.
: )

i dig.
keep em coming.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Maybe Slippy can whip out his Audio Precision and take a few minutes off his new job as Gearslutz "Post Recycler" and measure it for you.

I dont think so, i think he is too busy making records and using his ears rather than looking at the screen of an audio precision meter.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

And recycling old posts. He's got plenty of time for me.

That is true

[Geoff Poulton]

I guess it could depend on which 9098 you're talking about, the Amek 9098 or the Amek RCMA 9098.

[Barish]

I smell some brown envelope here, he.

B.