DAV preamps now, or keep saving up?

[davebl@dircon.c]

Originally Posted by invinco

So I'm about to start on a new project (my studio is mostly a home/not too ambitious setup at this point) and I might have a little bit of cash to drop on a mid-priced preamp.

I need to record a drum kit and at the moment I've only got three outboard channels... two from a Toft ATC-2 and one TAB-Funkenwerk v78. There are also the mic channels in my MOTU 828 which should be getting modded by Black Lion in a week or two.

There's also the mic pres in my mixer, which is really more of a piece of furniture than anything I actively use... it's a yamaha rm2401. The preamps sound nasty and clip easily but in my experience they're still more useful than the stock pres in a 001 or 828.

So for a quick fix I've looked at stuff from Grace, A Designs, DAV and Sytek. On the tube-having side of things I've considered Sebatron, Summit or the Groove Tubes brick. There are clearly a lot of options but I plan on significantly upgrading my setup over the coming year, so I don't want to blow any cash on stuff I won't want to keep around in the future.

I can't justify spending more than $800 per channel at this point unless there's some nice EQ or compression in the package. I'd like a good balance of "color" pres and fast, transparent ones. Super-extended high end is definitely not a necessity at this point.

Dav stuff like the BG-1 seems to be pretty fairly priced per channel, and from the descriptions I've read it sounds like it can hold its own with some of the $1000+ channels... But multi-channel boxes like the Sytek MPX sound enticing as well.
Any thoughts on options that won't get muscled out once I get a little bit more money together?

Obviously only I can decide whether I like how something sounds, but I don't have a lot of opportunity for A/B comparison here so I'll have to rely on the wisdom of those with more experience.

Sorry, my posts tend to be fairly long.

DAV's are great, they are clean but have a euphonic quality to them. The are able to see off Pres at 4 times the cost. The only way is to have a listen to which ever pre's you are considering.

[matta]

Invinco,

Have you thought about looking into getting a API 500 series rack? I think it might be the way to go if you want to 'blend' up colours, sounds etc.

If you go for the bigger rack from API you will be able to get 10 channels into just 3U's of space and it will allow you to buy/sell modules as an when you can afford to. Obviously the biggest hurdle is the rack itself, but I think it is competitively price for what it offers.

There are a TON of options right now, just search for posts on the 500 series and you will see what I mean.

Things are hotting up with designers thinking outside of the box and offering new designs like Dan K's new Great River Pre for the 500 series, a 'Nevesque' type design running off single +24V rail (what makes this special is that the API rack is a bipolar 16V design and requires some clever design/thought to get the voltages you need without compromising the design) as well as Scott L's new Tube PRE/EQ running on an HV of +250VDC!!!

Each module is priced to market and most pres for the 500 series are less than $800 a channel.

In partnership with another boutique audio company we have a DAV type pre (When I say type I mean IC based, clean gain, +60dB, transparent sounding etc) coming out towards the end of the year in the 500 series format which SHOULD retail around $500 - $600 a channel.

I hope that helps.

Cheers

Matt

[Norman Lindsey]

I think you’ll get the most value out of the sebatron preamps.They can go from colored to clean if you need to and have a character that although is subtle can make the real difference to a track.
The EQ is real handy too.

[Plush]

"The DAV Electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 is the best mic amp in the world." (sm)

[matyas]

A few months ago I was trying to decide between a Sytek and DAV. The Sytek ended up winning, because I could get 4 channels for what 2 channels of DAV would cost me, and one popped up available used (but in basically brand-new condition) in my area. I still think I'll end up getting a DAV sooner or later, because I think it would be good for the classical gigs I do, but the Sytek is good for rock and it's clean enough that it gets used for classical as well. Basically, given the choice between those two, I don't think you could go wrong. Sytek is still on the clean side, but has a little more "color", especially on th Burr-Brown channels.

[YRLK]

Greetings Friend.

As an owner of both the DAV BG-1 and API 512c's, I have a few things to say that might help you.

First of all, I consider both the BG-1 and 512c's to be fantastic, full, very 3 dimensional sounding preamps. I am happy with both, and I use them both for different things.

However, if I had to go with one of them for most modern music, it would be the API's.

Keep in mind that, basically... in the 60's, there were two types of preamp: API or NEVE. *Of course, there was the Quad8, but it was lesser known and thus lesser used, even if some do consider it to be better.

SO... it is my most sound advice to recommend that each person sticks to what he/she knows works, which I would translate as this:

1) 1 high quality piece of equipment is going to be far more satisfying than 2-3 lesser quality pieces of equipment that one paid the same amount for.

2) The tested and true should generally be where one starts.

Now... if two is followed, the it is almost equally safe to say that a DAV pre will be every bit as satisfying as an API, based on the history and experience of the people who designed these preamps. However, which have you heard on more records that sound incredible? The API.

So again... for most modern music, grab any API or Neve or anything in between (or even totally different), but start with the basics: what are you going for?

...

Now for a sound comparison observation...

API's. You get punchy, very music mids, and a pretty full response. They are definitely a musically colored sound, meaning they are not super transparent.

The DAV's, in my opinion, are not so transparent either, and they also tend to hold onto notes which sustain themselves. Furthermore, there is definitely an accentuation in the low end, designed for distance micing, I'd wager.

When I mic a kit, I use API's on kick and snare and DAV's for over heads, because both of them slam for this purpose. And when I mic an acoustic guitar, I run an SM81 (or 2) right into those DAV's, and man... as long as I make sure the low cut's on the SM81's, do they ever sound good as gold.

But if I had to have one, I'd stick with an API. Furthermore, keep in mind that API lunchboxes (or racks) such as the one I have are very versatile and expandable. DAV's (if layered over and over again) seem to pick up almost too much of an instrument to be layered, while API's seem to be more blend-able over and over (though nothing truly is, of course).

You can get a bunch of different sounds inside of one tiny box, and those sounds can be anything from really clear to super huge or really coloured or whatever.

Plus, if you know (or know somehow who knows) how to build things themselves, gosh... Eisen Audio. Guy's a flippin genius, and I'd wager that he can get you any sound you want in a very simple DIY kit for a few hundred bucks.

Anyway. DAV's... API's... everyone who's used either knows that these (among maaany other preamps available) are high quality, very useful tools. The question is this: what are you going to be recording, and what sounds/instruments will you typically be after?

For most, something more age proven and more classic in design - like an API - are a great performer that will seldom disappoint and likely be a lasting tool that just works. But then there are the DAV's, which in my opinion, are surprisingly good (regardless of cost) and up there with the rest, for an absurd price, honestly.

What would I do if I were in your shoes with the specific equipment you listed? I'd get a lunchbox and start with a few good pres there, honestly. For a single channel, while they may be 500-700 bucks, they're not going to cost you 1,000-1,500 bucks a channel, they are space efficient, and it allows you to start with something and build up as you want to. They're even portable, just like the DAV's.

There is no one answer to any problem or situation in audio... there are options that you decide work better for each one based on your personal opinions and what your ears hear. That said, especially if you can't test them first, start with something that you feel you should trust, and build from there.

As for me, I trust API, I trust Purple Audio, and I sure as heck trust Eisen. I'm not overly impressed with OSA so far based on samples that I've heard (don't shoot), but what I've heard of the Buzz Audio stuff sounds pretty great too. There's also the big P1 from A-Designs that everyone seems to be into, and I think it sounds good, but I'd take an API over it, honestly.

I'm not sure if this helped at all, nor am I sure that anyone enjoyed reading it... just some ideas.

[lynyrd]

If you are handy with the soldering iron I highly reccommend the Seventh Circle Audio preamps, prticularly the A12 model. The ones I have built sound great on everything but the A12s particularly shine on drums.

[gevermil]

" Keep in mind that, basically... in the 60's, there were two types of preamp: API or NEVE. *Of course, there was the Quad8, but it was lesser known and thus lesser used, even if some do consider it to be better. "


Really ?

[johnwayne]

Here's a track I did with the Dav BG-1 on the overheads.

I think it sounds great. http://johnwayne.learningguitarnow.c...20May%2017.mp3

[Neukoln]

Originally Posted by yrlk

Keep in mind that, basically... in the 60's, there were two types of preamp: API or NEVE. *Of course, there was the Quad8, but it was lesser known and thus lesser used, even if some do consider it to be better.

I thought I would just clarify that this is absolutely NOT TRUE.

Maybe this dude has got the 60's confused with the 70's and 80's.

The 60's - lets see; pretty much all the hits you hear from this period came from the following consoles; Helios, Universal Audio (or any Bill Putman design), REDD, Phillips, RCA, Spectrasonics, PYE etc etc.

Mostly in-house designs - that was the 60's sound my friend.

Sorry, it just had to be said.

[YRLK]

Ok. Forgive. I got the dates mixed up. And everyone likes all the Putnam stuff, but most of what I see getting used on a wider variety of instruments and vocals are the classic solid state API and NEVE stuff. I mean, everyone used to use tubes too... but nowdays, I feel I'm much more disenchanted with them - for most music that has several parts. Seems like stuff that's more based on solid designs of solid state OpAmps and Transformers blend better together sound-wise and avoid getting a ton of noise all over the place.

*Also... if you want to advise anyone on a minimal budget to start with a Helios channel, then let me know where you find them for 100 dollars. =) Dang. I love the 610 on bass guitar, but other than that, it's generally not my go-to pre for anything. As far as what's affordable, well gosh... a lot of people like those Focusrite producer packs, and I think those sound great too, but for my money (to so as to have options), I was happy to pick up a lunchbox (like my friends had been using and getting great sounds out of) and start filling it up little by little. I also have these ADM 780's, and I'm very happy with them. They sound fantastic on bass and as overheads or as a close mic for acoustic as well. They're smoother and coloured in the mid-range KINDA like an API, but I don't think they're as fast of a preamp... they seem to produce a little bit of a warm lag, if that makes any sense, which seems to make things thicker and deeper, to my ears.

The DAV's sound great in that clip... very warm. That was cool of you to post. (What mics did you use, and what was your positioning?) It seems that these were almost designed more exclusively for picking up room sounds and/or the ENTIRE sound of a given acoustic instrument. I did try running an electric bass through one though (via d.i.), and it just didn't do anything for me. Kinda seemed more "unfocused" even at closer proximities, if that makes any sense, but I'm not saying that's a bad thing... just not what I'd want to use on most instruments in a song, UNLESS the song was going to be comprised of a few tracks which recorded the bulk of the song, and I was using room mics to primarily pick up the sound that I was after.

Great thoughts.

[johnwayne]

Thanks. The mics were AT 4050's in spaced pair about 3ft above the drumset. It's a fairly small room but I do have a hanging cloud above the overheads. Also many bass traps 2" and 4" in the corners.

The Dav's really sound great on overheads and Acoustic guitars. I don't like it for bass or vocals too much. My 610 kills it for electric guitar, vox, and bass.

610 was on the kick by the way with a D112.

I'm trying to get some cash for some Api soon. I would love to put them on the kick and snare with the Dav on the overheads.

[Neukoln]

Originally Posted by yrlk

*Also... if you want to advise anyone on a minimal budget to start with a Helios channel, then let me know where you find them for 100 dollars. =)
.

Very cute, but you know that wasn't my point.

I was correcting you on your sweeping statement.

Neukoln.