Crane Song HEDD 192 as an ideal interface for ripping vinyl then remixing ITB?

[NuMystic]

Just taking my first steps into digital audio. So, please accept my apologies for the long post and any misunderstandings in how things work...


I'm currently using an iMac G5 (Mac Pro upgrade in 5 months) and learning my way around Ableton Live and Reason. Once I have a decent grasp on these I'll be adding Logic to the arsenal.


Been a pro DJ for 15 years and my immediate focus is strictly on remixing with plans of working almost entirely in the box.

My first major project is going to be transferring a good size chunk of my 3000+ record collection into 24/96 audio files. I'll be using these as source material for custom edits/remixes.

(no need for a tangent on the analog recording chain... already know how important stylus, cartridge alignment, tonearm, turntable, damping and phono stage is for top quality rips)


So... my next major investment is an audio interface. Quality A/D conversion is my number one priority. Mic-pre's aren't, as any live recording for overdubs will be done at an outside studio geared towards live recording.

The RME FireFace 400 and Metric Halo ULN-2 were both looking like good candidates but I'm really clear now that I want to go a bit higher end into the Apogee/Lynx/Lavry Blue realm of quality.

Countless people have sung the praises of the Crane Song HEDD. The analog emulation seems especially attractive as a way of balancing the entirely ITB processing I'll be doing. Also I imagine it would be fantastic for warming up the output when I DJ with digital material?

The only outboard gear I am thinking about getting are a desktop controller for Ableton/Reason/Live and a full stroke midi keyboard. (will be taking piano lessons) Down the road I'll also invest in a synth workstation like a Nord Lead or Virus TI.



On to my utterly newbie questions...

1) For the same price as the HEDD could I be getting dramatically better A/D/A conversion without the tape emulation effects?

2) Now that I'm foregoing an all-in-one audio/midi interface solution like the FireFace what's the best way to connect the HEDD to my iMac without a loss of quality? (the iMac only has USB and Firewire 400 connections, no PCI slots)

3) How would I be able to take advantage of the HEDD's effects when working in the box? Is there a way for me to send tracks out to the HEDD and back in to the mix without going through D/A and A/D conversion each time?

4) Provided my desktop controller and midi keyboard have a built in midi interface with firewire or USB out, is there any reason to be concerned about giving up the built in MIDI I/O that the FireFace has in favour of the much higher quality HEDD unit?

5) Given the stated goals and proposed set up above is there any reason why I would need more inputs and outputs than the HEDD offers?

6) Is there anything else that I am completely overlooking in my complete lack of understanding and newbie-ness.


Thanks for your patience with the long post and for any insights you can share!

[Jules]

Originally Posted by NuMystic

My first major project is going to be transferring a good size chunk of my 3000+ record collection into 24/96 audio files. I'll be using these as source material for custom edits/remixes.

Also I imagine it would be fantastic for warming up the output when I DJ with digital material?

6) Is there anything else that I am completely overlooking in my complete lack of understanding and newbie-ness.

There is a subtle dilemma here, if you find you are processing your I DJ output with the Hedd's tape processes, you might find yourself 'double processing" when you play the music you processed when importing your record collection. (Hedd owners will know what I mean, its not unusual to regret processing individual tracks, when you want using the process again - ie - over the whole mix.)

But that is a pedantic power-user hair splitting point..

You might get an experienced overview on whether its wise to import your entire record collection at 24/96 or 24/44.1

I am a big fan of 96k but with that many records and it all having to end up 44.1k on an Ipod for your DJ gigs, you have various issues to wrestle with like file storage space and sample rate conversion processes to think about.

Also if you are thinking about dropping lots of $$$$ on a nice converter, I would think you would want to make sure the record player you use to import your records was top notch. It may well be DJ decks for club use might be way down there in terms of reproduction quaity (perhaps they and the stylus' used are used more for their ability to withstand hours of use / scratching etc) and you might want to borrow or buy a top grade hi fi turntable and fit it with a top grade stylus and use a great record deck pre amp.....

Anyway lots to think about...

Carry on...

[NuMystic]

Originally Posted by Jules

There is a subtle dilemma here, if you find you are processing your I DJ output with the Hedd's tape processes, you might find yourself 'double processing" when you play the music you processed when importing your record collection.

"I DJ" isn't a piece of hardware. I meant "when I am deejaying".

That is to say I'm excited about the prospect of using the HEDD in between the laptop's out and the main club system to warm up digital audio files that have never been processed by the HEDD.

I don't plan on using the the HEDD's tape emulators at all when actually ripping from vinyl to disk for the very reasons you suggested. I would only be treating the audio with the HEDD when I've done remixes involving extensive edits and digital effects "in the box".

Originally Posted by Jules

I am a big fan of 96k but with that many records and it all having to end up 44.1k on an Ipod for your DJ gigs, you have various issues to wrestle with like file storage space and sample rate conversion processes to think about.

I would never dream of DJ'ing off of an ipod and try to avoid even CDs whenever possible. For digital files I would either work off a laptop with external hard drive playing the 24/96 files directly, or use the new Pioneer VDJ units which support DVD-Audio.

Granted, even many "pro" soundsystems are far from great, but I do get the opportunity to play on truly outstanding systems often enough to care about the extra fidelity.

Originally Posted by Jules

I would think you would want to make sure the record player you use to import your records was top notch.

Absolutely! As per my statement above:

Originally Posted by NuMystic

(no need for a tangent on the analog recording chain... already know how important stylus, cartridge alignment, tonearm, turntable, damping and phono stage is for top quality rips)

I wouldn't even think of skimping on the front end given the hundreds of hours I'll be devoting to ripping the vinyl alone.

Didn't want to sidetrack my questions regarding the HEDD itself with the vinyl-phile end of things since there are entire forums engaged in absurdly heated debate on that subject alone.

[FULL-DUPLEX]

Jules nailed it. If you want to spend a lot of bucks into a high end convertor, you should also invest into a high class turntable with the right cartridge and a nice preamp!

To digitise your records I would look for a turntable from brands like Thorens and EMT!

The Technics 1200 /1210 was developed to be a "HiFi" player but a competition between the Technics and for example the Thorens TD 126 MKIII is unfair... The Thorens kicks the Technics a long way away...

[Jules]

Well cool then!

Hats off to ya for playing 24/96 files in a club!

I think 24/96 done well is GREAT sounding..

For reference here is a thread where high end equipment & club DJ'ing gets discussed....

I was talking to a DJ friend of mine today..

[NuMystic]

Originally Posted by Jules

Well cool then!

Hats off to ya for playing 24/96 files in a club!

I think 24/96 done well is GREAT sounding..

For reference here is a thread where high end equipment & club DJ'ing gets discussed....

I was talking to a DJ friend of mine today..

Thanks Jules! thumbsup

Been following that thread since it began, and agree wholeheartedly with many of the sentiments expressed. Having played on a few of the world's most legendary club systems I can assure you my standards are ridiculously high.

Originally Posted by FULL-DUPLEX

Jules nailed it. If you want to spend a lot of bucks into a high end convertor, you should also invest into a high class turntable with the right cartridge and a nice preamp!

Decided that long ago.

Really.

As mentioned in my original post, you're preaching to the choir regarding turntable, stylus, etc.

While I'm not ready to invest in a $100,000 Clearaudio Statement rig, I can assure you the vinyl playback system itself will be painstakingly selected, well tweaked, and properly configured long before I begin encoding.

So, that said...

Any gearslutz on hand to offer informed perspectives on my actual questions regarding the Crane Song HEDD?

Pretty please?

[Jules]

Originally Posted by NuMystic

So, that said...

Any gearslutz on hand to offer informed perspectives on my actual questions regarding the Crane Song HEDD?

Pretty please?

Er.... can we get in on the guest list?

[AnalogBob]

I have recorded plenty of records and the pre/converters provided it's of pro quality and transparent I don't think will make or break the proccess. Remember the source being vinyl is already very warm, so there not really much need to add much to the source just capturing it well. The Hedd's tape/tube features would probably be redundant on capturing vinyl. The sound of the 1200 as I am sure you know has been tried a tested so maybee a somewhat lo fi solution might not be too bad it is vinyl after all.

[NuMystic]

Originally Posted by Jules

Er.... can we get in on the guest list?

Hah! Add a dedicated gearslutz guest list to my rider? I've asked for stranger things.

Originally Posted by AnalogBob

The Hedd's tape/tube features would probably be redundant on capturing vinyl.

Okay. Given the length of the original post and replies, I guess it's understandable that folks aren't actually reading the whole thing.

Cut and pasted from above...

Originally Posted by NuMystic

I don't plan on using the the HEDD's tape emulators at all when actually ripping from vinyl to disk... I would only be treating the audio with the HEDD when I've done remixes involving extensive edits and digital effects "in the box".

Even so, I appreciate the time everyone has taken in sharing their thoughts!

Sooooooooo... Here are the questions I am actually most needing feedback on:

1) For the same price as the HEDD could I be getting dramatically better A/D/A conversion without the tape emulation effects?

2) Now that I'm foregoing an all-in-one audio/midi interface solution like the FireFace what's the best way to connect the HEDD to my iMac without a loss of quality? (the iMac only has USB and Firewire 400 connections, no PCI slots)

3) How would I be able to take advantage of the HEDD's effects when working in the box? Is there a way for me to send tracks out to the HEDD and back in to the mix without going through D/A and A/D conversion each time?

4) Provided my desktop controller and midi keyboard have a built in midi interface with firewire or USB out, is there any reason to be concerned about giving up the built in MIDI I/O that the FireFace has in favour of the much higher quality HEDD unit?

5) Given the stated goals and proposed set up above is there any reason why I would need more inputs and outputs than the HEDD offers?

6) Is there anything else that I am completely overlooking in my complete lack of understanding and newbie-ness.

[Mike H]

Regarding (1), I would purchase Lavry Blue converters instead of a HEDD for more accurate conversion. By accurate, I mean close reproduction of the original material.

I owned the HEDD for several years and A/B'ed it against the Blues, then bought all Blues and sold the HEDD.

IMHO, the HEDD converters add a slight rounding to the material that some people like. There is a slight loss of clarity, to my ears. They are good converters, but you are stuck with that added quality if this is your go-to converter. This effect would be even less desirable for vinyl material that is already warmed and "rounded".

The HEDD digital processing adds more fuzziness, to my ears, kind of balloons the sound. Certainly not subtle like tape. It is more an effect that maybe you would want sometimes, but not very often.

I know a lot of people like the HEDD and will strongly disagree and blast me. It is all a matter of personal preference. I wanted to keep mine as an option, but it just kept irritating me when I'd switch to it from the Blues.

I would go for accuracy in conversion, and the Lavry Blues are the best affordable converters for accurate reproduction, IMHO. I have 24 of 'em, nothing else.

[moogus]

Hey NM, heres my take on answering yr questions.

1 - No. Even if the Lavry Blues (the only other real competitor IMO) were better convertors, they dont have the tape/tube fx. So that one is pretty straight forward.

2 - I dont know if the imac has any native digital I/O but ill assume not. In that case you need some kind of USB/Firewire interface that has either SPDIF or AES connections. Lots of cheap ones are available that have SPDIF i/o and I dont know of any reason why any would be higher quality if youre doing your conversion externally and your cable runs are short and you use proper RF coax. So perhaps just pick one and see if it works, and go from there.

3 - The HEDD has a digital to digital process mode that allows you to run signal thru its DSP without going thru the ADA convertors. Easy.

4 - Not sure I totally understand what you mean, the HEDD has no midi connections at all, that will have to be handled by your audio+midi interface. The only other thing Ill say on this is be careful about the quality and length of the USB/firewire cable feeding your midi box. Mine is quite long (5m) and until I got one of those self powered USB booster cable extenders, I was having major trouble with midi timing, even though the interface still seemed to work ok.

5 - Not that I can think of at the moment...

6 - Appart from how insane you will be after youve finished recording all that vinyl, no.


Ive owned my HEDD 192 for about 18 months now and absolutely love it. Its been flawless appart from an issue with the power transformer bolt touching the case and burning out. Hopefully theyve fixed this problem now, they sent me out a new transformer promptly and free of charge though.
Ive used it to record vinyl a few times and Ive always been completely happy with the results - nearly indistinguishable from the real thing. This is definitely not the case when using cheaper convertors (ie Fireface/002 etc) and Id have to dissagree with a previous poster on this point.
So, I can pretty much personally gaurentee you wont be dissapointed with it for this application or for anything that involves its A-D or D-A convertors.
Also its meters are GREAT and worth an extra $1000 on their own IMO.

Id advise you to look on the tape/tube fx as an extra bonus that will be useful sometimes but certainly not what youll want to run everything through, especially not your records! I find I never use them in tracking and only occasionally when mixing, but quite often when Im mastering, especially when the material Im working on isnt quite up to scratch. If a mix sounds great already (which always should be the aim) the HEDD's tape fx arent going to help it at all.
BUT the rest of the HEDD's good points make it a sure bet even if you never use the fx at all.

Hope this helps,

M@

[NuMystic]

Mike, thanks so much for sharing your experience with the Lavry Blues! I've never heard a bad word about them yet so I'm not surprised about the glowing testimonial.

Moogus, I REALLY appreciate your taking the time to address each of my questions in turn.

So if I go with a unit like the Lavry Blue or HEDD I will still need to purchase a separate dedicated audio interface.

Will any inexpensive (M Audio / MOTU) interface suffice without degrading the quality of the HEDD/Lavry output as long as it has FireWire out and AES/SPDIF input?

The most often recommended all-in-one interfaces for the mac seem to be the Metric Halos. I've seen endless praise for them here on Gearslutz, though I haven't seen anyone comparing it directly to external converters like the Lavry/Crane.

For my particular needs can anyone tell me whether the Lavry or Crane is likely to make a dramatically noticeable improvement over the quality of the Metric Halo ULN-2 or 2882?

Once I figure in an additional interface the Lavry or HEDD is going to run me between $2800-$3500 new vs. the MH ULN-2 $1500.

I'm not against paying twice as much for dedicated conversion if I'm really getting twice the quality. But is this is an area of significantly diminishing returns?

I don't want to pay $1500-$2000 for a 5% difference in overall sound quality if that same money could potentially bring a much greater enhancement in fidelity if it's invested (for example) in upgrading from a "very good" stylus to a truly "superb" stylus.

That kind of money could mean the difference between a Denon DL-103R / AT150MLX vs. an Ortofon Kontrapunkt / Sumiko Blackbird stylus and a Rega RB300 vs RB700 tonearm. If these models mean nothing to you, think of it as the difference between a widely regarded entry level mic/pre combo and a mid level pro combo.

So much for keeping the thread focused on conversion rather than audiophile vinyl playback.

Okay, even if this gets the vinyl nuts crawling out of the woodwork, first and foremost I could really use a critical and qualitative comparison between the MH ULN-2 and the Lavry/HEDD at twice the price from those that have worked with both.

I already know that the consensus is the Lavry converters are "better" than pretty much everything below them in price. My question is (when compared to the MH-ULN-2) just how much better are we talking here?

Night and day?

Subtle, but noticeable to all?

or

Mastering Engineers would never miss it, but the average listener doing a blind test on a great system probably wouldn't know the difference?

If you've actually read this far, thank you SO much for doing some hand-holding with this wide eyed neophyte. Any and all insights are appreciated.


P.S.

1) I know that either way I can upgrade in the future (conveter/interface vs stylus/tonearm/preamp) BUT that's not going to happen until after I've transcribed 1000+ records and I'm not about to repeat this absurd task everytime I improve one piece of the signal chain.

2) Going out to demo the units first hand is simply not an option at the moment as I am typing this from South Africa so finding the MH and Lavry units is going to be hard enough, let alone finding them in the same place!

[sweetjesus]

Originally Posted by NuMystic

Mike, thanks so much for sharing your experience with the Lavry Blues! I've never heard a bad word about them yet so I'm not surprised about the glowing testimonial.

Moogus, I REALLY appreciate your taking the time to address each of my questions in turn.

So if I go with a unit like the Lavry Blue or HEDD I will still need to purchase a separate dedicated audio interface.

Will any inexpensive (M Audio / MOTU) interface suffice without degrading the quality of the HEDD/Lavry output as long as it has FireWire out and AES/SPDIF input?

The most often recommended all-in-one interfaces for the mac seem to be the Metric Halos. I've seen endless praise for them here on Gearslutz, though I haven't seen anyone comparing it directly to external converters like the Lavry/Crane.

For my particular needs can anyone tell me whether the Lavry or Crane is likely to make a dramatically noticeable improvement over the quality of the Metric Halo ULN-2 or 2882?

Once I figure in an additional interface the Lavry or HEDD is going to run me between $2800-$3500 new vs. the MH ULN-2 $1500.

I'm not against paying twice as much for dedicated conversion if I'm really getting twice the quality. But is this is an area of significantly diminishing returns?

I don't want to pay $1500-$2000 for a 5% difference in overall sound quality if that same money could potentially bring a much greater enhancement in fidelity if it's invested (for example) in upgrading from a "very good" stylus to a truly "superb" stylus.

That kind of money could mean the difference between a Denon DL-103R / AT150MLX vs. an Ortofon Kontrapunkt / Sumiko Blackbird stylus and a Rega RB300 vs RB700 tonearm. If these models mean nothing to you, think of it as the difference between a widely regarded entry level mic/pre combo and a mid level pro combo.

So much for keeping the thread focused on conversion rather than audiophile vinyl playback.

Okay, even if this gets the vinyl nuts crawling out of the woodwork, first and foremost I could really use a critical and qualitative comparison between the MH ULN-2 and the Lavry/HEDD at twice the price from those that have worked with both.

I already know that the consensus is the Lavry converters are "better" than pretty much everything below them in price. My question is (when compared to the MH-ULN-2) just how much better are we talking here?

Night and day?

Subtle, but noticeable to all?

or

Mastering Engineers would never miss it, but the average listener doing a blind test on a great system probably wouldn't know the difference?

If you've actually read this far, thank you SO much for doing some hand-holding with this wide eyed neophyte. Any and all insights are appreciated.


P.S.

1) I know that either way I can upgrade in the future (conveter/interface vs stylus/tonearm/preamp) BUT that's not going to happen until after I've transcribed 1000+ records and I'm not about to repeat this absurd task everytime I improve one piece of the signal chain.

2) Going out to demo the units first hand is simply not an option at the moment as I am typing this from South Africa so finding the MH and Lavry units is going to be hard enough, let alone finding them in the same place!

hey man, im big up on Live too
i mix purely ITB and I track one external synth.

i heard a shootout between RME Fireface and an Apogee Rosetta and the RME came out on top when it was using the Apogee for a clock source.

so perhaps keeping with your MH but purchasing a better clock may give you the results you are after.

If you are remixing, you are going to be twisting the sound a heck of a lot more than what it already is using eq's, filters and creative effects. I don't think a little bump in the convertor department will make a huge impact after you've given everything your own sound...


gimme a shout if u have any Live Q's.

peace

[cowrange]

Why not just get a high end converter that can do firewire or usb as well? Like the firewire option cards for Apogee's and Mytek's. They are in the same league, per say, of the Crane and you don't have to worry about clocking an "external" unit to a lesser interface. Unless of course there is a high importance placed on the saturation section of the HEDD.

[807Recordings]

I have not tried the Cranesong but I did use the Prism stuff and I found it to date the best sounding for pro use. Biggest problem I had going ITB is how many programs like Ableton live make everything song like a cheap MP3. All the money you spend on convertors will be lost with that program. Also used the RME fireface and various others and nothing came close to the prism stuff. Best playback convertors I ever had a chance to use was the Esoteric Audio stuff though its way beyond DJ price list.

I also did an experiement a few years back using audio research phono stages on all the channels of an analog board and the Linn K18 cartridges. To date nothing digital came close.

[sweetjesus]

Originally Posted by 807Recordings

I have not tried the Cranesong but I did use the Prism stuff and I found it to date the best sounding for pro use. Biggest problem I had going ITB is how many programs like Ableton live make everything song like a cheap MP3. All the money you spend on convertors will be lost with that program. Also used the RME fireface and various others and nothing came close to the prism stuff. Best playback convertors I ever had a chance to use was the Esoteric Audio stuff though its way beyond DJ price list.

I also did an experiement a few years back using audio research phono stages on all the channels of an analog board and the Linn K18 cartridges. To date nothing digital came close.

you may want to learn how to use it before spreading false accusations.

most people greak out when they hear stuff they made with 'WARPING'. warping is a real-time timestretching procedure. if you turn if off, you sound like any other DAW.

there's been plenty of tests between all the DAW's including Live and the only difference is that Logic vs Live, Live rounds up one decimal point for its master output and that Live follows different panning laws with +3db or so gain when panned to one side.

i do agree with you about the Prism converters though, very true to the original signal.

sorry to get all antsy about the Live audio quality thing, but I feel that spreading around inaccurate information isn't really helpful to anyone.

[Tom H]

Originally Posted by NuMystic

I don't want to pay $1500-$2000 for a 5% difference in overall sound quality if that same money could potentially bring a much greater enhancement in fidelity if it's invested (for example) in upgrading from a "very good" stylus to a truly "superb" stylus.

That kind of money could mean the difference between a Denon DL-103R / AT150MLX vs. an Ortofon Kontrapunkt / Sumiko Blackbird stylus and a Rega RB300 vs RB700 tonearm. If these models mean nothing to you, think of it as the difference between a widely regarded entry level mic/pre combo and a mid level pro combo.

Getting the ULN2 or a Mini Me and Mini DAC with firewire is the way to go IMO, not only would that be a lot more practical for live use live but you could also put the rest of the money in that other part of the chain as you are describing.

Remember that you are allready puting a lot more effort in converting than most others in your field and that we are really discussing the last %'s here. (But that makes it the high end on gearslutz i guess)

Ultimately I still think a HEDD would be very slutty in a club environment and could give you that little extra but it would be mostly slutty.

[NuMystic]

Thank you all for the continued feedback. (and the offer for support w/ Live!)

Originally Posted by cowrange

Why not just get a high end converter that can do firewire or usb as well? Like the firewire option cards for Apogee's and Mytek's.

Well the only Mytek I see with firewire card is the 8 channel A/D/A which means paying for 6 more channels than I need since I am not doing any external recording. At $4000 for the unit plus card, that just doesn't seem to make sense for me.

The Apogee Rosetta 200 + firewire card on the other hand would put me at around $2100 which is not out of reach.

Originally Posted by Tommylicious

Getting the ULN2 or a Mini Me and Mini DAC with firewire is the way to go IMO

Any reason I would want the separate Mini Me and Mini DAC over the A/D/A Rosetta 200 at the same price?

The Crane Song tape emulation is an attractive bonus, but not nearly as mission critical as the conversion and vinyl rig itself.

No doubt that playing through it live would be slutty indeed but it's size doesn't really lend itself to touring. So it would only wind up getting used live on the rare occasions that I host my own events. (rarely)

So now it's pretty much down to this...

$3500 - Lavry Blue + additional interface (lavry support recommended RME FF400)
$2100 - Apogee Rosetta 200 + X-Firewire card
$1200 - Metric Halo ULN-2 (any reason to consider the DSP option when I'm not doing any live recording?)

Which brings me back to my earlier (now slightly revised) unanswered question:

Originally Posted by NuMystic

When comparing the Lavry Blues, Rosetta 200 and MH ULN2 just how broad a gap in audible quality are we talking here?

Night and day, curl your toes, leave you breathless?

Subtle, but clearly noticeable to all?

or

Mastering Engineers would never miss it, but the average listener doing a blind test on a great system probably wouldn't know the difference?

If a comparison between these three really is the "last %'s" as Tommy put it, then it's settled and I'll get the ULN2... but if anyone has the experience to say that the Lavry's are even twice as good at 3x the price I'll seriously consider coming up with the scratch to make it happen.

Originally Posted by Tommylicious

Remember that you are allready puting a lot more effort in converting than most others in your field

No doubt... but then that's why I get to play the really great rooms on occasion.

I know that these types of comparisons are quite subjective and repeated ad nauseum around here...

But since I have absolutely no way of doing a live comparison first hand, I can only hope to make as informed a decision as possible based on the collective wisdom of the audio slutz here.

Thanks again for any additional experiences you can share. thumbsup

[siddhu]

Hi NuMystic,

Normally, any good pro audio store (that knows you are serious) will let you borrow a unit for a few days as a tester or rent it to you.

Why not do your own shootout between the Lavry/HEDD/MH convertors and decide for yourself.

I always borrow/rent gear from one of the two pro audio stores I buy from before purchasing anything to really see if it suits my needs.

Just my $.02

[max cooper]

One reason you might consider the separate AD and DA is for live use, you could leave the AD at home.

re: 24/96, I rip a lot of vinyl (mainly for use in my car). I tend to track it in at 24/88.2 but I export the track at 16/44.1 (for cd's of course) but you might choose to archive the stuff on drive at the higher rate, but take it out at a lower rate; remember, playing back at 24/44.1 is less likely to choke your CPU, which, at a gig, I'd be thinking about.

I use a Rosetta 800 with a pretty high-end vinyl rig. One thing I like about the Rosetta is that it adds a little punch to things. Might be nice, but I would try multiple converters; probably no more than two at once.

I worked with a guy who tracked into Live and I couldn't tell the diff. between the sound of Live and the sound of Pro Tools given all the same gear.

And as you know, when you're ripping vinyl, don't crank the speakers too loud.

[Zep Dude]

I just explained this on the thread about :"80% of people using Apogee?" but am happy to summarize.

If you are ripping full analog mixes (as compared to single instruments), which you are, the conversion is critical in preserving the punch and detail of analog. In this scenario, you will hear a more noticable difference between converters than if tracking solo instruments. Lesser quality converters, including apogee in this case, will noticably flatten the dimensionality and punch of the analog source. If you are critical about this, and you seem to be, you should use either the benchmark AD, the lavery blue or better (lavry gold, prism 2 channel ad). Even consider renting a lavery gold or other similar mastering AD for the bulk of your ripping. However the Benchmark and Lavery Blue should be fine.

A few years ago I ran well recorded 2 track analog masters (Neumann vintage mics>old neve>2" 16track, mixed through old neve to 1/2" tube 2 track at Sear Sound) through several AD's. The Lavry Gold was the best followed by the Benchmark (close 2nd) then the Mytek. Noticably worse was the Apogee 16x and Rosetta800. It is very challenging for a converter to preserve the full dynamics, details and punch of pure analog 2 track masters and only the best units will be up to the job.

On the other hand, if your records are mostely modern dance tracks using digital softsynths and mixed in the box before hitting vinyl the quality of converter might not be as important. You'll have to make the call -maybe you can do a shootout (which is always best)?

As others have mentioned, since your source is warm analog to begin with, the HEDD processing is a waste for you. It's doing a digital (and not as good a version) as what you already have -analog! I've also found the HEDD to be a limited use box.


Good luck!

[raal]

Originally Posted by NuMystic

So if I go with a unit like the Lavry Blue or HEDD I will still need to purchase a separate dedicated audio interface.

yes.

Will any inexpensive (M Audio / MOTU) interface suffice without degrading the quality of the HEDD/Lavry output as long as it has FireWire out and AES/SPDIF input?

for remote recording i've used HEDD > firewire M-Audio 1814 @ 96kHz. it has a dedicated BNC WC input so you can clock to an ext. source no problem. AFAIK the other M-Audio portable boxes don't do this, nor can any of the LE products. the pots (headphone etc.) are lame, but i use an ATTY for speakers. small and works great.

[Monkey Mouse]

I might be able to help you as I completed the conversion of my vinyl to .wav last year.

I only brought it in as 16/44.1 because without the high end TT/TT pre/converters combo, it was senseless to go above that level. I used an e-mu 1212M to capture the output from my DJ mixer (Denon digital), which resulted in a very clean signal.


However, I did learn a few things to pass on:

Buy an audiophile cartridge with dead flat frequency response - anything remotely resembling DJ cartridges will have too much bottom end and roll off above 17k or so.

Get a high quality record cleaning kit or machine - you need to have your vinyl as clean as possible to get the ideal recording. This is the most important step in recording vinyl.

The better your equipment in the analog chain, the more detailed your recordings will be. If you want to go all out, buy a VPI Scout TT ($1,650), and good phono stage ($500?), a great cartridge ($400) and high end cabling ($100 and up). Then the conversion will cost you whatever you think your interface should be - ($750 and up).

If you are going to recors at 24/96, never let the levels recording go above -9db to be safe - 24 bits allows more dynamic range that vinyl (especially dance songs) can produce - no reason to clip a signal.

PM me with questions if you like.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by raal

............it has a dedicated BNC WC input so you can clock to an ext. source no problem.

Just a comment on clocking, not on the proposed gear:

Not sure why it would be advantagous to us an external clock, though you certainly could. Every time I've A/B'ed clocking arrangements, I get a better sound/image if I have a high quality A/D and use the A/D's own clock as the master.

IMHO, If the A/D doesn't have a good clock, you have the wrong A/D.

The Lavry and HEDD clocks are excellent.

[NuMystic]

Thanks yet again for all the continued feedback...

As mentioned already, shootouts aren't going to be an option due to geographical restrictions. Which is why I am even more grateful for the valuable perspectives you are all offereing! thumbsup

[quote=max cooper]remember, playing back at 24/44.1 is less likely to choke your CPU, which, at a gig, I'd be thinking about.[quote]

While there may not be much of a difference on my home system compared to 24/44, on some of the high end club systems 24/96 is marked improvement.

I know at least one guy that's been playing 24/96 off an old G4 powerbook that has never had a single hiccup. Since I'll be using a new MacBook Pro, I don't really see CPU load being a concern.

Originally Posted by Zep Dude

If you are ripping full analog mixes (as compared to single instruments), which you are, the conversion is critical in preserving the punch and detail of analog. In this scenario, you will hear a more noticable difference between converters than if tracking solo instruments.

This may have been one of the single most important tips I've received yet. Thank you!

One of the reasons it's so hard to weed through the infinite anecdotal comparisons with gear is they are often based on entirely different needs/configurations.

Being that my scenario goes way beyond tracking individual instruments I am definitely going to be taking this advice to heart.

Originally Posted by Zep Dude

if your records are mostely modern dance tracks using digital softsynths and mixed in the box before hitting vinyl the quality of converter might not be as important.

A huge section of my collection is indeed dance oriented, but the most important to me are very heavy on live acoustic elements... tribal percussion, jazz solos, vocals and the like.

Mission critical recordings are going to be the tracks transcribed for editing and remixing. Here I'll be sourcing a lot of classic live jazz, disco, funk, and rock from an era when quality mastering was FAR more prevalent than in modern pressings.

So, a Lavry Blue AD/DA combo is looking like the clear winner for a cost effective compromise between the ULN-2 and Prism/Benchmark/Lavry Gold level converters.

Originally Posted by Zep Dude

Even consider renting a lavery gold or other similar mastering AD for the bulk of your ripping.

Heh. With over 3000+ records to transcribe renting would cost more than buying multiple sets of prism converters!

Taking time out for less important matters (like eating, sleeping, making a living) means I'll probably be ripping for the next 2 years... and that's only cherry picking the best of the lot.

Now renting a Prism to encode the key tracks that will be remixed for professional purposes may indeed be something to think about...

Originally Posted by Monkey Mouse

Buy an audiophile cartridge with dead flat frequency response - anything remotely resembling DJ cartridges will have too much bottom end and roll off above 17k or so.

Already on it. I'm going with a Moving Coil Denon DL-103 that will most likely be fitted with a ruby cantilever / line contact stylus retip.

Originally Posted by Monkey Mouse

Get a high quality record cleaning kit or machine

Already have a nitty gritty vacuum unit. Would love a Loricraft/Monk but that money is going into the Lavry Blues it seems.

Originally Posted by Monkey Mouse

If you want to go all out, buy a VPI Scout TT

ALL out would be a top of the line Clearaudio/Dynavector rig. But that's not going to happen. lol

The Scout would have been a top contender if I didn't already own 3 Technics 1200s.

So I'll be using a heavily modded 1200mkII with outboard power supply, cardass tonearm rewire and fluid damper, sumiko headshell, litz leads, isonoe feet, isoplatmat, and a few other diy tweaks.

It's no Clearaudio Statement to be sure, but I'll happily do a shootout between this frankenstein TT and a bone stock VPI Scout any day of the week.

Haven't settled on a preamp yet. If there are any recommenations under $500 that will mate particularly well with the low output DL-103 I'm all ears.

One other thing that I know very little about is power conditioning / electrical damping. I want to be recording the music not the sound of my AC!

As with most of the audiophile market there are (of course) insanely priced products to address this. I'd love some budget minded advice on limiting distortion and noise from the electrical current to my system without breaking the bank.

I've even heard that some low end power conditioning products can actually deaden dynamics of the audio?

Caveat 1) I rent so re-wiring anything but the AC outlet itself is out of the question.

Caveat 2) I'm not a DIY electrician by a long shot so plug and play (har har) solutions and tips would be appreicated.

And a special thank you to Zep and Mike H for the help in weighing the Lav Blues.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Just a comment on clocking, not on the proposed gear:

Not sure why it would be advantagous to us an external clock, though you certainly could. Every time I've A/B'ed clocking arrangements, I get a better sound/image if I have a high quality A/D and use the A/D's own clock as the master.

IMHO, If the A/D doesn't have a good clock, you have the wrong A/D.

The Lavry and HEDD clocks are excellent.

hi mike. the 1814 syncs to the HEDD's clock. maybe i wasn't clear, but what i meant is that the M-Audio unit has a dedicated clock input which can be used to sync to an ext. source @ 96kHz. LE products and the other portable M-Audio boxes can't AFAIK. the M-Audio Project Mix controller can but it's not very portable.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by raal

hi mike. the 1814 syncs to the HEDD's clock. maybe i wasn't clear, but what i meant is that the M-Audio unit has a dedicated clock input which can be used to sync to an ext. source @ 96kHz. LE products and the other portable M-Audio boxes can't AFAIK. the M-Audio Project Mix controller can but it's not very portable.

Sorry, I misread you.

Now I got it.

[huarez]

1) For the same price as the HEDD could I be getting dramatically better A/D/A conversion without the tape emulation effects?

No. The HEDD delivers top notch convervion. The word "dramatically" is absoloutly misplaced.

2) Now that I'm foregoing an all-in-one audio/midi interface solution like the FireFace what's the best way to connect the HEDD to my iMac without a loss of quality? (the iMac only has USB and Firewire 400 connections, no PCI slots)

Any digital Input with AES/EBU

3) How would I be able to take advantage of the HEDD's effects when working in the box? Is there a way for me to send tracks out to the HEDD and back in to the mix without going through D/A and A/D conversion each time?

No Problem going the AD/DA Route for using the saturation effects of the HEDD.
The HEDD has no Digital Inputs.

4) Provided my desktop controller and midi keyboard have a built in midi interface with firewire or USB out, is there any reason to be concerned about giving up the built in MIDI I/O that the FireFace has in favour of the much higher quality HEDD unit?

????You mean loosing Quality going through the HEDD? Maybe. But you may like what you hear.

5) Given the stated goals and proposed set up above is there any reason why I would need more inputs and outputs than the HEDD offers?

It´s a stereo unit. As long you go stereo.......


6) Is there anything else that I am completely overlooking in my complete lack of understanding and newbie-ness.

The HEDD might be a little bit overdimensioned for you Project, or maybe just right.
You will get a good Price on the 2nd Hand Market if you don´t like/need it

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by huarez

1) The HEDD has no Digital Inputs.

Just for clarification, the HEDD does have digital I/O.

[807Recordings]

Originally Posted by sweetjesus

you may want to learn how to use it before spreading false accusations.

most people greak out when they hear stuff they made with 'WARPING'. warping is a real-time timestretching procedure. if you turn if off, you sound like any other DAW.

there's been plenty of tests between all the DAW's including Live and the only difference is that Logic vs Live, Live rounds up one decimal point for its master output and that Live follows different panning laws with +3db or so gain when panned to one side.

i do agree with you about the Prism converters though, very true to the original signal.

sorry to get all antsy about the Live audio quality thing, but I feel that spreading around inaccurate information isn't really helpful to anyone.

I have done the tests both with warping and not warping on. The warp function was one of the best I have heard in Live but it still makes things sound like shit. Still Live does change the sound and you can argue to you are blue in the face but the mixdowns sound nothing like they do in Logic, PT, Sequoia, etc. That being said believe what you want. AT least we agree on the Prism stuff.

Yes I know how to use Ableton Live and on occasion do.