Got people skills?? I need some advice!

[The Byre]

It's a case of "Oh wid some power the gifti gee us to see orsels as others see us!" (Robert Burns)

I wish I had $10 for every time I had to face this problem.

Straight talking just pishes them off.

Going behind their backs just pishes them off.

They have to come to that conclusion (that they are song-writers and nothing else) themselves. The only way you can do this, is to let them hear themselves and realise the truth for themselves. If you tell them flat out, then YOU are an arsehole and it's all your fault.

[Fletcher]

It's one thing to recut guitar tracks on a project where there are big dollars at stake and you have points on the back end... and it's an entirely other issue to recut them on a "demo" without mentioning it to the artist.

I would highly recommend you stay away from deception like that as it will only serve to fvck up your relationship with this artist in the future when he finds out [and he will]... you will cause him embarassment and wound his pride a bit.

With that said... I'd recommend you talk to a band with whom your friendly about covering one of his songs [even if you do it as a "free session"]. The band will probably love to come in and record [and maybe even throw in one of their songs as well... especially if its a really good band!!]. At the same time ask the artist who is a great songwriter if it's cool with him if this other band records one of his songs [unless he's a total ****** bag he'll be psyched and flattered all at the same time that someone else wants to record his music!!].

So... now you have a band that feels good and a songwriter that feels good and you go in and record the song. Work your balls off to make it the best it can be.

Give a copy of the "covered" version to the song writer who will already have a copy of it [hopefully with his miserable guitar parts on it] and will come to the conclusion on his own that he needs some "outside assistance" in the conveyance of his music.

Understand that all musicians / artists have to have an ego to do what they do... they have to feel good about themselves and their work or they'll be flattened. NEVER do anything to wound the pride as you'll put up an additional road blocks to the artist's output capabilities!!

My point being that you can't tell him he sucks... you have to lead him to a path where he can discover how to make his work better... how his message and emotions can be conveyed through a listening format so those ideas can be communicated to others... but it ALWAYS has to be HIS idea!! [or something you come up with "together"].

For all you know this other band could adopt him as a songwriting partner... or some other bands might discover his music... or he could start getting hired guns in to perform his music, etc.... it'll be interesting to see how it all goes... but I'm going to say it again... if you care about this guy and/or his music in the slightest then don't lie to him and be careful not to crush his ego.

Best of luck with it!!!

Peace.

[Lynn Fuston]

Step back a minute.

Are you selling honesty or studio time?

Does he come to you for critique or because he wants you to record him?

Try to stay on task or you'll lose a customer. I don't think it's the studio/studio owner/studio manager's place to decide what is good or bad or whether it could be better. Heck, I have opinions about what would make a project better all the time. But that's just MY opinion. And if they really wanted that opinion they would have hired ME as the producer. But they didn't.

Do your job and keep your clients.

(This was my post # 1111 by the way. Trivial, I know.)

[88fingerz]

I say and do this;

When asked, start by praising his/her strengths and focusing there for a bit. Also make mention how the one thing they (or any artist) has going for them out of the gate is uniqueness, their own distinct voice/style.

When it comes to less than steller musicianship (only if he/she asks for an honest answer), tell them your truth!

You'd be surprised how far honesty in this situation will take you! Be ready though...if you're going to critisize the performances (for the good of all concerned ofcoarse) be ready with a solution (session musician/vocalist) that is rock solid and affordable according to the client's budget.

I find most artists put their trust into you on a few different levels and, with their desire to have their project presented in the most professional and positive light, they more often than not will take and heed your valuable advice and do what you suggest.

Worst case scenario is they got their false pride and feelings hurt, but will always respect you for your honesty in the long run!

OTOH...if they never ask and seem thrilled with what they're laying down, it's perhaps best (from your business standpoint) to bite one's lip and do your professional best to make things work!

Best of luck!

[Sigma]

if asked I wil give my opinion with the caveat that i am not gonna BS them [i will be diplomatic though]

generally keep your mouth shut and do your job..

and recording onto someones project without their consent or knowlege is so taboo i can't even comment on it

everyone has their own expectations and values..I am not getting paid to put mine in someone elses head

[CasadeBomba]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

I am not sure where to post this so I went for the "high end" forum assuming that a few seasoned pros might be able to offer some good advice.
I have a regular client who writes good songs but is quite challenged in the areas of playing and singing. I should reiterate, his ideas are quite good, but as an instrumentalist/singer he is quite bad. I would love to produce good tracks but that would exclude him from participating in anything other than demos. Up to this point i have been re-tracking his guitar tracks with out his knowledge and, when available, he usually highers a pro singer so all is well on the final tracks. Otherwise his performances are just not usable. How might I break this to him without stifling his creative spirit?

If you are the producer then you have to be honest and respectful about the situation. After a while your reputation will speak for itself because the quality of the recordings will be great.

If you are a studio owner/engineer then it's really not your place to say anything. You should just make it sound the best you can.


Ric

[drumzealot]

Feedback always helps.
I posted after a looooong night of mixing his stuff:
EQ the drums (solid)
bring up the bass (good groove)
fade in the guitar (ouch!)
volley in the vocals (double ouch!!)

Regarding the guitar re-tracking: Up to this point I did this on one tune and 80% of the final mix was his original take. But you guys are right. I shall hencefourth let jagged tracks lay. But I am glad I brought it up and also glad you guys chimed in. I was about to totally re-cut for another tune today. Guess I got a bit over zealous.

I am liking the cover idea. If he doesn't "come to" after hearing these mixes I may just do that, with his permission of course!

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by Randall

Tell your client the truth....

I'm all for honesty. Don't lie to him. But unless he asks you what you think of his voice and his playing, then he probably doesn't want to know. Why invite trouble?

Also, remember that there are two kind of people that ask your opinion.

1) The first kind wants to know what you think, hoping that you will inflate their ego. They don't want truth. They want to be stroked. Total honesty with these types is almost always devastating and you'll never hear from them again.

2) The second wants honest critique in the hopes of improving and your input will be valued and applied. NOTE: This kind of person is definitely in the minority, probably fewer than 5-10% in my experience.

[Lynn Fuston]

Speaking of people skills, I have to admit that the reason I read this thread was not because I think I have them. I just noticed the thread title and that Fletcher had responded.

THAT I had to see. ;-)

I was very impressed with your answer, Fletcher. Nice post.

[Dan]

Yeah, I think that was the most un-cynical post from Fletcher I've ever read. I've joked about secretly replacing tracks on an artists record, but yeah that's pretty taboo. I feel your pain of having to let bad tracks lay.
At least you're not going down the "edit the F out of it" road. That's painful also. It sounds like you don't need to replace the whole band, just the guitars and vocals. Maybe there's a guy around you could introduce to this artist. They could collaborate, and have better vox and gtr on his tracks.

[Lynn Fuston]

I had to do this once. The artist (singer) and the guest artist never knew. A true legend had been contracted to play a guitar part on the record. He was an "elder statesman" by this time. We loaned his engineer the master (2") tape and they recorded it and sent it back. What we got was unusable. Timing, tuning, feel, all were abysmal. It was the signature lick for the entire song. So it couldn't be tucked or pulled back.

We made an executive decision to have someone else replay the same part with the same tone. No one was ever the wiser.

And don't ask. I won't tell.

[EDIT: As I think more about it, I think we spent several hours editing and polishing up a four bar phrase that we could use in the intro so that we could honestly say that he played on it. -LF]

Doing these things is not uncommon in this industry. It's not unlike hiring a body double for a scene in a movie. You do what you can to make the best record possible. But it requires discretion and secrecy.

[nandoanalog]

Kill the guy, and your problems will be over.

[lordmiguel]

i think fletcher and lynn covered that topic with absolute perfection. nice job.

[Brent Hahn]

Not that this addresses you specific situation, but here's a time-honored formula for telling a business associate something they don't want to hear.

1. Take him/her to dinner. Just the two of you. Be clear that you're buying.
2. Try to sit in the middle of the room, or somewhere else where you can be seen by lots of people.
3. Order a drink. (Unless you don't drink, of course.)
4. Midway through the first drink, and no later, get into it. Be tactful, be nice, but make sure he/her has gotten the message.
5. After that, change the subject, keep it light, eat well, don't get drunk.

Good luck.

[jeremy.c.]

Yeah, this seems to be a universal issue. I have a good friend whose record I did from top to bottom. He was cool about me pulling his riffs into a semblance of 4/4 time (as he would hold chords until he could get all his words over them, time signature be damned!), but he wanted to sing everything, and while pitch wasn't as much of an issue since it was more of a gravel throat vocalist thing anyway, his sense of feel and rhythm is virtually non existent (and he thinks he's a great dancer too by he way).
I tried to subtly nudge him towards getting lessons for voice and/or guitar, but he's so off he can't even hear how off he is, and this seems to be the case with most people like him with aspirations and little natural ability. So telling him flat out does no good as it only hurts him and strains our relationship...
At any rate, he's finally starting to wake up to the fact that he has little rhythm and wants help, though he won't take lessons, go figure...

he expects what most people expect: instant rockstar, just add booze!

[lordmiguel]

good suggestions brent.

however, if this guy is a songwriter and knows to get a good singer to do his songs, then he probabaly knows he is not the best guitar player in the world. sometimes we do it for convenience and economy and because we wrote the song. most of the time a songwriter will want what is good for the song - unless they're tying to be an artist too (totally different game)

probabaly all thats needed i would guess is to say "i really like this song would you give me a shot at laying the guitar" or "i know someone who could kill this song on guitar". however, if you are suggesting that this person spend $$ on a session player its a slightly different deal, not all songs are worthy of that. why don't you take a shot at it and if he really likes it better you can make some side cash and he would be happy to have a cheap, honest "go-to" guitar guy for most of his songs.

can't tell you how many times a senior a&r person has said 'oh you should get a band to cover this' which i know exactly what that means (i cut my pinky a few years ago and have no feeling in it anymore), but its not usually direct enough for most songwriters. and they're usually right when they say it, but for someone who doesn't have a good band for the song, or the relationships, it does no good. if you can find him a band to cover it and are willing to record it (at least the first one), all the better. maybe you'll gain a long-term partnership that will both make you $$ in the long term

[spitfire8898]

Originally Posted by lordmiguel

i think fletcher and lynn covered that topic with absolute perfection. nice job.

I agree, I think Fletcher had the best idea on how to go about it without getting this guy all booty hurt...

[Protools Guy]

I'm not sure if it's been said or not, but you need to guage your comments according to the client's personality. If you think he will receive constructive criticism in a positive way, then by all means offer it, but without putting him down. If not, keep your opinions to yourself.

One approach might be to say something like, "Man, these are some kick-ass songs you've written. When it comes to songwriting, your talent is some of the best I've ever heard. I could only imagine how amazing these songs would sound if they got into the hands of X". Insert the appropriate artist here.

Then you let him run with it a little bit and try to steer him into the direction that it's HIS idea to make the best possible recording of the songs to give them their best possible shot in a most competitive industry. The best possible recording possible might just be with a session guy you know who would probably be really proud to be associated with these great tunes.

It's a finesse move. Most guys that are younger are not about to get their egos out of the way, so be prepared.

Good luck, and may the force be with you!

[peeder]

I've handled this sort of thing in just about every way and overall my conclusion is that usually it doesn't matter. If you would like a happy working relationship with someone then stroke them. If you want to get revenge on them point out their faults.

If they are going to be successful they will have both a thick enough hide to take criticism and enough candor with themselves to not need to be given it. Of all the artists I've worked with, I would say emotional stamina was the core difference between the ones who made progress and the ones who didn't. To ride the ups and downs and the external and self-inflicted reality slams and falsehoods.

Talent is a fairly easy part of all this...you just need to do enough iterations coupled with a stiff enough (but not too stiff) self-assessment. Being able to remain playful after succeeding may be the hardest challenge in the business. It's all a matter of giving up on your reputation, at all levels. The bigger your reputation the harder it is to risk it and the more there is to let go. But that's the only way you can keep it.

This artist being discussed seems to be very protective of their "reputation" which in reality doesn't sound like it extends further then their own underpants. Generally, this is a hopeless situation. If you are having fun and/or making money, you can just go with the flow. If they are the type that will shoot the messenger, sure you might not want to be that messenger, but they might have just as much trouble with themselves being the messenger down the road.

And btw, my impression is that at least as far as drumming is concerned, only a handful of bands' live drummers actually play anything on any of their albums. Between Berklee nerd ghost-drummers and sample replacements and quantizing, there's a lot that happens in the days between "basic tracks" and "we're ready for overdubs!" Often the drummer is never told. I'd be shocked if this isn't ever true for much of the rest of the production in most bands. At least the ones worthy of such investment.

Oh and an approach you might try with an artist is asking them, "What do you think is the weakest link in the chain, that we can focus on shoring up?" If they say, "There are no weak links in this chain!" then you move along. But getting them thinking about it, and then following with "How could we make that the strongest link in the chain?" will often get them to come around or at least to willingly surrender some of that direction to you.

[abit]

This what I say to the client in situation like this.

How much do you care when your wife/girlfriend go to see gynecologist.

Probably not to much, right.
Same here - you came to me, cuz you know who I am and how I can help you.
So just shot up and do what I say for your own good,babe. (with a smile on your face)

It could be a songwriter, or a singer who has shitty songs to start with, doesn't matter.

But sometimes I ask myself how great as a singer or guitar player let say, Bob Dylan..
So it's quite tricky-pricky stuff in general and there is no 1 pill cure to everybody, whoever nocks in your door.

[lordmiguel]

Originally Posted by peeder

....my conclusion is........

vey well said!

[Drumsound]

There are a couple things I do in these situations. First I do my level best to get the takes better. I try to get the artist to understand what it is I am hearing and what it takes to get the take better. I might grab a guitar play if that will help. If they seem to think I'm being snobby or something I explain that my goal is to make the best possible record at that time.

In your specific situation you might want to use the fact that this guy hires a singer to make things better and possible hiring a guitarist would be good too. You could even do the parts for no charge since you're getting paid to record the tracks anyway.