Anyone NOT crazy about Ribbon mics for OH and acoustics?

[redddog]

I just recieved and put some Cascade Fatheads through the paces. They sounded great - just not my cup of tea. It's not just the Cascades. I've worked with other much more expensive ribbons and find myself not really digging them as much as other mics for certain applications. I think I'm just not really that into them.

This place is sort of ribbon crazy right now so I understand I'm putting myself in the line of fire here, but does anyone else here feel sort of indifferent about Ribbon mics?

[Dan]

Well, there's a time and place for everything. I can see being under enthused about ribbon mics in general. There's some valid reasons they fell by the way. That being said, their qualites are well matched for digital recordings. I have a hard time beating them on some trumpet, sax, and guitar tracks. It really depends on the sound you're going for though. They can be pretty boring on some tracks. Others though, it's gold you can't get any other way.

[6dyslexicelephnt]

Keep in mind cascades are $159 new. I was at a nice analog recording studio and the engineer used a Coles 4038 for OH and it was the most natural sounding overhead I have ever heard. Seriously the first time he played back the drums over the overhead, I thought our drummer had stepped back in and decided to redo her take while I wasn't looking. Surprised, I looked over fast and no one was there. WEIRD.

The engineer used an AEA R 84 for acoustic and kick drum and they both sounded very nice. The acoustic was very subdued and the kick through a millenia pre with some EQ was very huge. My point is maybe if you tried some of the nicer ribbon mics you would like them better.

[Petimar]

They are definitely not everyones cup of tea. However, try a higher quality ribbon next time. You may change your mind.

Those Chinese ribbons I've heard can't compare to the Royers and AEAs of the world.

[PhatStax Drums]

What is the input impedance and gain of your mic pre?

Ribbons have the lowest-mass transducer and mainly because of that (and they're so simple and passive) they probably (certainly?) have the lowest distortion (at least for the money?) and best transient response. I'm sort of theorizing here, but, they DO have the lightest transducer, so.....

For many applications you need EQ, but they take tons of it, very well

I just personally like their natural sound, and you can always make it whatever you want in mixing (others would have opinions on that of course...best to track it they way you want it at least with the right mic, I know).

So many classic recordings used ribbons (fifites and sixties) but depends on where you're coming from

I'm just a part-time geezer into this stuff, you probably know everything I wrote here....just my $.02

I have to emphasize, best for the money (just in my opinion which doesn't mean much). I've never even had the pleasure of being able to use an expensive condenser (best I have are SM81s, which are very good)...so, really, what do I know....

I DO know that I type too much, sometimes, at least

But, the advantages:

great transient response

responds to EQ to make up for any deficiencies in frequency response

responds very well to high mic pre input impedance (this will clear up a lot of the ribbon "blahs")

uncolored off-axis response

great null rejection

generally high SPL handling (just no significant air velocity please)

don't plug/unplug hot (good to practice for any mic but especially these)


The natural sound is what gets me.

[Rick Sutton]

Redddog,
you're not wrong in your assesment. Different horses for different courses.

[StuartMac]

Throw a pair of Coles 4038s or 4040s over the kit. Tweak the eq to taste.

If you don't like that, then no, ribbons are probably not for you.

[Bassmec]

I am a huge fan of very high quality ribbon mic's and their associated proper ribbon mic
pre amps. So I have no idea at all what you have been listening to. The only thing I can say is get a BK 5 and an OP-6 plonk the Bk 5 in front of a good acoustic gtr. fiddle with the 90db of available gain and if it sounds anything less than faffing awesome send the whole lot off to steven at talking dog to get it properly serviced.
I have been in this business since moses was a lad and I have never heard a producer say "what you want on that is a fat head".
Have you tried marinating the fat heads overnight in soy sauce with a little rice wine and garlic?. I feel sure it will improve them a good deal.

[arpodthegreat]

i'm not so crazy about ribbons either. i have AEA r92 and r84 and while i love them on electric guitar and strings and horns, not so much on acoustic. it's weird because i like "warm" sounding recordings but i just like the way condensers sound better. maybe i should use EQ but i don't have very good EQ. i have good preamps though. on acoustic it's just too dead sounding. although i have to say that if it's for loud strumming especially with a pick it works great. for fingerpicking not so much. overheads are ok i like the AEA r84 as a mono overhead or as a room mic. but i can usually get a bigger sound with LDC mics. like i said though, can't touch the ribbons on amps, horns, strings. nice for backing vocals and sometimes on piano.

[bluegrasser]

Well,

I'm no expert, but there's one other thing to consider for you guys who don't like ribbons. (I LOVE THEM!!)

They like a live room. They may sound lifeless and dull and in your super-treated rooms. I don't know if it's the figure 8 thing or what, but they like air. The whole point of ribbons is to give you a you-are-there vibe..............IMHO.

[redddog]

Originally Posted by bluegrasser

Well,

I'm no expert, but there's one other thing to consider for you guys who don't like ribbons. (I LOVE THEM!!)

They like a live room. They may sound lifeless and dull and in your super-treated rooms. I don't know if it's the figure 8 thing or what, but they like air. The whole point of ribbons is to give you a you-are-there vibe..............IMHO.

I'm sure that's what it is for me. My room currently is very dead and lifeless. It also needs to be much better in the treatment department so even if it was more live, it wouldn't be a "good" live.

I'm just thinking - for my current situation - that the SDC is a better fit than a fig 8 ribbon. I'll give them a try when my room improves.

[sheltersoton]

i have a complicated relationship with ribbons... i love them on oh but my less than beautiful room prefers my 4047's on the whole... i currently own an AEA R88 which was bought for oh and as such isnt getting used... i try it on room duties and its nice, but no better than a pair of £100 ATM450's... and up close or backed up from a cab i find them really fluttery and lacking definition... they certainly do take eq really really well though...

this week i have an SE R1 that has been jammed up next to a guitar cab and it's making a better sound than the r88 (obviously one out put of the r88) but all it really is is another flavour to blend.. not the be all and end all.

I'd love to try out a royer 121 to see if it is THE guitar mic everyone makes out it is but i have a sneaking suspision it'll only be another texture.

i do like the sound of a ribbon on things but im not conviced
that they do any thing more magical than say... an MD441 for smoothe with rolled highs for example...

definately a flavour, certainly flavour of the month.

[indie]

Originally Posted by bluegrasser

Well,

I'm no expert, but there's one other thing to consider for you guys who don't like ribbons. (I LOVE THEM!!)

They like a live room. They may sound lifeless and dull and in your super-treated rooms. I don't know if it's the figure 8 thing or what, but they like air. The whole point of ribbons is to give you a you-are-there vibe..............IMHO.

I totally agree with this -- and one step further.... they sound like crap to me as overheads in rooms with short ceilings. the figure 8 thing for sure.

[Jim Williams]

Ribbon mics are low pass filters. I'm hearing a lot of new releases that must be using them on overheads as the cymbals have no definition or range, sort of like a 40's 78 rpm recording. I suppose that might be good if the drummer is crap and the cymbals are crap.

Audio is fashion, the fashion of the day is ribbon mics. Tune in next year for the next fashion.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[warhead]

It depends on the ribbon, kit and room.

The ones I've used and liked:

AEA R84
APEX 210
Beyer M160
Oktava ML-53
Peluso R14
sE Electronics R1

The R84 is still king on drums in my experience. The R84 is still king of everything I would ever want from a single ribbon in fact including acoustic guitar.

I don't use Royer ribbons, so they are excluded only due to lack of use on my part and having no relationship with that company.

2 of those are Chinese ribbons and I would not exclude them based on their country of origin, having heard them next to tons of more expensive ribbons. In a shootout on Friday at a local studio, a $139 ribbon beat an $1800 American made ribbon on drums. Just slaughtered it.

That Oktava ribbon is sort of condensor like in a way, very unique sound.

The use of EQ can make any of these ribbons shine on a drum kit, and they will all take EQ very well. On their own with no EQ, I can see how an initial "yuck" might apply.

War

[warhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Ribbon mics are low pass filters. I'm hearing a lot of new releases that must be using them on overheads as the cymbals have no definition or range, sort of like a 40's 78 rpm recording. I suppose that might be good if the drummer is crap and the cymbals are crap.

Audio is fashion, the fashion of the day is ribbon mics. Tune in next year for the next fashion.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Most of them open up nicely with a hi shelf. Ribbons accent a completely different area than most condensors or dynamics, low / low-mid which delivers a lot of "balls" on a drum kit. They also offer a very smooth and fat sound on guitar cabs, a sound unlike most condensors and dynamics. I don't know why you would not consider them another useful tool that does something completely different. I know you usually talk about wanting to capture things as clean and natural as possible, but I sure dig the sound of a good ribbon (sometimes with tons of EQ).

War

[firby]

I love the sound of beyer m160s on overheads. The hypercariod pattern is nice for a crap room. And they sound good through my less than stellar gear. Someday I will have a better room and some coles. Alot of the old jazz music that I listen too has the sound of ribbons. Suprisingly I hear them alot in movies too.

For me I had crap mics and then I heard a recording of somebody that put up a couple of beyers over a drumset. I knew the instant I heard it.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by warhead

Most of them open up nicely with a hi shelf. Ribbons accent a completely different area than most condensors or dynamics, low / low-mid which delivers a lot of "balls" on a drum kit. They also offer a very smooth and fat sound on guitar cabs, a sound unlike most condensors and dynamics. I don't know why you would not consider them another useful tool that does something completely different. I know you usually talk about wanting to capture things as clean and natural as possible, but I sure dig the sound of a good ribbon (sometimes with tons of EQ).

War

If a mic doesn't sound right flat, well, is isn't a good thing. Using a EQ to "make up" adds noise, distortion, phase shift, etc. Not a good thing either. I'll always select a mic that sounds best flat, EQ is a bandaid to be used as a last option.

As I've said before, it's not the concept of ribbons I object to, it's the current crop of mics. I've not found a single dynamic speaker that will cover 20~20k. I use a 2 way system with a crossover so 2 drivers split the load and are optimized for their frequency range. This has been successful and very common for the last 40 years.

All I see are single ribbon designs with an element optimized for low frequencies, none are flat to 20k or even close. I suppose I could EQ the crap out of a single 8" speaker and "extract" the edges to retain some HF response, but that's not very practical either. That's the concept of EQ on these ribbon mics.

I'm still waiting for the minds of Royer and others to offer a dual ribbon mic with 20~20k response.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[bluegrasser]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

If a mic doesn't sound right flat, well, is isn't a good thing. Using a EQ to "make up" adds noise, distortion, phase shift, etc. Not a good thing either. I'll always select a mic that sounds best flat, EQ is a bandaid to be used as a last option.

As I've said before, it's not the concept of ribbons I object to, it's the current crop of mics. I've not found a single dynamic speaker that will cover 20~20k. I use a 2 way system with a crossover so 2 drivers split the load and are optimized for their frequency range. This has been successful and very common for the last 40 years.

All I see are single ribbon designs with an element optimized for low frequencies, none are flat to 20k or even close. I suppose I could EQ the crap out of a single 8" speaker and "extract" the edges to retain some HF response, but that's not very practical either. That's the concept of EQ on these ribbon mics.

I'm still waiting for the minds of Royer and others to offer a dual ribbon mic with 20~20k response.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Jim,

Isn't the point that those rolled-off highs are "just the ticket" for digital recording?

[warhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I'm still waiting for the minds of Royer and others to offer a dual ribbon mic with 20~20k response.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

That would be nice!

Something like an R84 though I feel has a nice top end response already and doesn't require as much EQ in the end. My sE R1 also doesn't require much EQ if any on guitar cabs, fits it like a glove.

I also think EQ isn't so much of a band-aid but more of the sound of rock n roll most of the time. Extreme eq'ing on kick drums, toms etc sounds better in the mix in my opinion. Noise, distortion and phase shift...I'll take it...

War

[xparkerx]

war:

I totally agree, my clients could care less about the freq. response of my gear. they just want it to sound modern and huge.

[Dan]

Microphones and speakers are two different animals. You don't typically worry about power handling with microphones. With speakers, larger transducers are used to convert higher wattages to higher spls at lower frequencies. However, larger transducers suffer from "beaming" in higher frequencies.

Take condenser microphones for instance, the smallest capsules are the most accurate, (typically) even at sub-low frequencies. They don't have to be bigger, or smaller to capture different frequencies.

That being said, I don't know why ribbons are seemingly always tuned dark. Theoretically, shouldn't they be better at capturing high frequencies due to their low mass? Maybe they can't stretch the ribbon tighter for fear of breaking it, and it ends up a bit like a spring that's stretched loosely, and is more prone to resonate at lower frequencies. (total guess) Isn't there some new ribbon mic that fletcher was talking about that uses a different material for the ribbon? (memory metal?)

Isn't there a Beyer that uses two ribbons?

[Improv]

My love and respect for ribbons has developed from a slow and flirtatious courtship. They seemed boring and dull for the longest time, then I tried some through better pres, then in better rooms, then tried some better ribbons, then EQ'd them after the fact with better EQs, then my sonic tendencies shifted slightly from the brighter and sharper to the warmer and more natural and... all of a sudden, ribbons rock! Their ability to localize the source in a 3D-like space is remarkable.

I love using them for the side mic in an M/S setup (drums, guitar) because they're understated and natural. Good for that application.

Still not crazy about them for drum overheads though, but I'm fascinated by everyone else's allegiance to this sound. I'm curious how you guys would position some 4038's over a standard kit?

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Improv

My love and respect for ribbons has developed from a slow and flirtatious courtship. They seemed boring and dull for the longest time, then I tried some through better pres, then in better rooms, then tried some better ribbons, then EQ'd them after the fact with better EQs, then my sonic tendencies shifted slightly from the brighter and sharper to the warmer and more natural and... all of a sudden, ribbons rock! Their ability to localize the source in a 3D-like space is remarkable.

I love using them for the side mic in an M/S setup (drums, guitar) because they're understated and natural. Good for that application.

couldn't have said it better. also, as if there isn't enough to consider, people's hearing is different from person to person. i must have too much ear sensitivity to the upper freqs.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by bluegrasser

Jim,

Isn't the point that those rolled-off highs are "just the ticket" for digital recording?

Not for good digital.

Bad digital, well, I just don't go there....

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Acko]

I love ribbons, a pair of coles on an accordion yesterday, such a full tone, just great...amazing on horns, as room mics... In fact the only condensers on that whole session were the C12's (M/S setup) over the drums, the rest were dynamics and ribbons. Oh we did use a U47 and a sony C800g for vocals. But I liked ribbons even back when we were using tape.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by warhead

That would be nice!

Something like an R84 though I feel has a nice top end response already and doesn't require as much EQ in the end. My sE R1 also doesn't require much EQ if any on guitar cabs, fits it like a glove.

I also think EQ isn't so much of a band-aid but more of the sound of rock n roll most of the time. Extreme eq'ing on kick drums, toms etc sounds better in the mix in my opinion. Noise, distortion and phase shift...I'll take it...

War

thumbsup

I am with ya...


About the ribbons. I like them, as with anything else they are a tool to expand your pallet with. You would not use a breaker bar to change your spark plugs but when you need to change your tire that plug wrench is not much help either is it?



Not all tools work for all jobs.

The point is if you use the right tool for the job, you have a large assortment of tools at your disposal and you know how to use all of them like a pro you are going to be a more versatile mechanic and in the end you will get more work.

Oh and, two last words for ya.... Coles 4040! thumbsup

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Not for good digital.

Bad digital, well, I just don't go there....

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Give them ribbons one more look, I don't Eq mine, don't need to. If necessary I usually just augment the high end with a bright mic placed just for that purpose, Kind of like a tweeter.
I don't use them for overheads I don't have the hight in the Drum room to make the best of them here but put one out in front of the snare drum, same distance away as an overhead but about two foot off the floor.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Fman

"A poor carpenter blames his tools."

Always thought that was a quaint little statement. Just because it seems like a fun thing to say that does not make it accurate.



A true professional carpenter knows that to do good work you have to have the proper tools. You don't see allot of pro carpenters using junk second hand dull saws, it makes the job twice as hard and the finished results are never as good.

How about this.... I will give you a microphone out of a realistic tape deck with a set of Mackie preamps and I will use my Soundelux E251C with my Great River MP-2NV. We will each record all the instruments for a full band rock recording... we will record the same band in the same room playing the same song.

I will bet my gear against yours that my recording will sound better.

A good carpenter knows that his tools have to be up to the task at hand, all cute feel good phrases aside.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by Fman

"A poor carpenter blames his tools."

I don't think that's where he was going with that comment about tools for the right job.

War

EDIT: Oops, not_so_new responding at the same time.