Anyone NOT crazy about Ribbon mics for OH and acoustics?

[Phil Townsend]

xxx

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Fman

I can't argue with that; it's pragmatic enough. But what I intended to mean is that ribbons are great tools and if someone blames them...etc.

Ooohhhhh... Got ya.. Yes I agree.

I should have said "A poor carpenter with great tools blames his great tools" but that somehow doesn't have the same ring to it.

Still, you never know, I've done some fair stuff with poor gear.

I do agree with this as well. I too have done some some okay sounding stuff with some pretty crappy gear..... but (and this is my point which I think you agree with) this "okay sounding stuff" used with my same ears and techniques would have been much better with better gear. Ya know?

All things being equal, same room, ears, band, songs, arrangements, and recording techniques the better the gear used the better the final outcome. All things are related in this business.

[PhatStax Drums]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Ribbon mics are low pass filters. I'm hearing a lot of new releases that must be using them on overheads as the cymbals have no definition or range, sort of like a 40's 78 rpm recording. I suppose that might be good if the drummer is crap and the cymbals are crap.

Audio is fashion, the fashion of the day is ribbon mics. Tune in next year for the next fashion.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Actually, ribbons reproduce the extremely detailed subtleties of cymbals arguably better than any mic due to their having the lightest transducers...it's pretty simple physics, at least the general idea is. (Barring some type of wide use of optical mics or some such, which doesn't seem to be happening.)

Sure, they don't have as good highs (response-curve-wise) as a small diaphragm condenser or quite as good as many mics, but they have less noise and distortion, so that EQ takes care of it really nicely and there's no distortion to get amplified by the EQ.

Here is the published average frequency response curve of the Royer R-121---this is not a low-pass filter. Some other mics such as the new CAD ribbon don't get as good highs but still sound nice in my opinion (and no, I'm not a super-experienced pro by any means, just my own opinion):

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#99cc99>Technical Specifications</TD></TR><TR><TD rowSpan=8></TD><TD vAlign=top height=235>Acoustic Operating Principle: Electrodynamic pressure gradient
Polar Pattern: Figure-8
Generating Element: 2.5-micron aluminum ribbon
Magnets: Rare Earth Neodymium
Frequency Response: 30 -15,000 Hz +/- 3dB
Sensitivity: -50 dBv Re. 1v/pa
Output Impedance: 300 Ohms @ 1K (nominal)
Rated Load Impedance: >1500 Ohms @ 300 Ohms
Maximum SPL: >135dB @ 20 Hz
Output Connector: Male XLR 3 pin (Pin 2 Hot)
Dimensions: 58mm L, 25mm W (6.13" L, 1" W)
Weight: 244g (8.6 oz)
Finish: Dull Satin Nickel/Matte Black Chrome optional



</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#99cc99 height=24>Polar Pattern</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top height=353>




</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#99cc99 height=21>Frequency Response</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top height=168>


10K


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Here is the response of the Altec 639:


Figure 2 10K 10K


here is a Neumann U87:


Bi-directional 10K


I wish I had a better-sounding clip of the following (the link I'm about to give is ridiculously compressed) but even as far back as 1950 (and before) you had a lot of detail in both the highs and lows, for example in Ellington's "Skin Deep" (written by Louie Bellson actually I believe) and with Bellson on drums. Again the following clip is really quite silly with horrid sound quality due to compression but if you can listen to the CD sometime...... (or the LP of course...)



Amazon.com



Yes, still, an un-EQ'd ribbon can definitely sound dull, but they really perk up nicely with EQ. And figure-8's and low ceilings and drum overheads don't work too well at all, but if you angle the mics out a bit over the front of the kit so they're picking up diagonally that fixes a lot of it

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by warhead

I don't think that's where he was going with that comment about tools for the right job.

War

EDIT: Oops, not_so_new responding at the same time.

[Improv]

Originally Posted by Acko

I love ribbons, a pair of coles on an accordion yesterday, such a full tone, just great...amazing on horns, as room mics...

Yes, yes, and, um, yes!

We had "Irish Marathon" a few weeks back, and our 4038's were awesome on accordion and concertina. Like they were playing right in front of your face. Also amazing on a B3/leslie. I just love the stereo imaging of them.... but yet...

I tangentially bump:

Originally Posted by Improv

Still not crazy about them for drum overheads though, but I'm fascinated by everyone else's allegiance to this sound. I'm curious how you guys would position some 4038's over a standard kit?

And I'll add... how much EQ are you adding later? I was never crazy with the imaging I got from ribbon overheads, and wonder if it's my positioning, my treatment, or both?

The room is great, imo, so it's not the revealing pickup pattern that's the problem, I don't think. Perhaps I just need to try it some more and learn to love it like I have every other ribbon application I tried.

But wouldn't mind a head start in positioning... I'm sure it's different than what you'd usually do with cardioid condensers?

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by PhatStax Drums

Actually, ribbons reproduce the extremely detailed subtleties of cymbals arguably better than any mic due to their having the lightest transducers...it's pretty simple physics, at least the general idea is. (Barring some type of wide use of optical mics or some such, which doesn't seem to be happening.)

Sure, they don't have as good highs (response-curve-wise) as a small diaphragm condenser or quite as good as many mics, but they have less noise and distortion, so that EQ takes care of it really nicely and there's no distortion to get amplified by the EQ.

Here is the published average frequency response curve of the Royer R-121---this is not a low-pass filter. Some other mics such as the new CAD ribbon don't get as good highs but still sound nice in my opinion (and no, I'm not a super-experienced pro by any means, just my own opinion):

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#99cc99>Technical Specifications</TD></TR><TR><TD rowSpan=8></TD><TD vAlign=top height=235>Acoustic Operating Principle: Electrodynamic pressure gradient
Polar Pattern: Figure-8
Generating Element: 2.5-micron aluminum ribbon
Magnets: Rare Earth Neodymium
Frequency Response: 30 -15,000 Hz +/- 3dB
Sensitivity: -50 dBv Re. 1v/pa
Output Impedance: 300 Ohms @ 1K (nominal)
Rated Load Impedance: >1500 Ohms @ 300 Ohms
Maximum SPL: >135dB @ 20 Hz
Output Connector: Male XLR 3 pin (Pin 2 Hot)
Dimensions: 58mm L, 25mm W (6.13" L, 1" W)
Weight: 244g (8.6 oz)
Finish: Dull Satin Nickel/Matte Black Chrome optional



</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#99cc99 height=24>Polar Pattern</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top height=353>




</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#99cc99 height=21>Frequency Response</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top height=168>


10K


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Here is the response of the Altec 639:


Figure 2 10K 10K


here is a Neumann U87:


Bi-directional 10K


I wish I had a better-sounding clip of the following (the link I'm about to give is ridiculously compressed) but even as far back as 1950 (and before) you had a lot of detail in both the highs and lows, for example in Ellington's "Skin Deep" (written by Louie Bellson actually I believe) and with Bellson on drums. Again the following clip is really quite silly with horrid sound quality due to compression but if you can listen to the CD sometime...... (or the LP of course...)



Amazon.com



Yes, still, an un-EQ'd ribbon can definitely sound dull, but they really perk up nicely with EQ. And figure-8's and low ceilings and drum overheads don't work too well at all, but if you angle the mics out a bit over the front of the kit so they're picking up diagonally that fixes a lot of it

I'm glad you brought this up as it's been a beef of mine for several years. Royer claims 15k hz response, do any of you Royer users believe you are hearing 15k flat?

Now take a close look at that frequency plot. It's HAND DRAWN! It's not in any way a log frequency plot like you would see from other manufacturers or even a plot off my Audio Precision. The spacing is all wrong. 100/1k/10k are all on different bars, not at the beginning of the log.

This is either incompetance or downright fraud as no lab would ever provide such an amateur measurement. So, what is going on there?

As to ribbons having the fastest transient reponse, how does that translate when 15k hz is rolled off? Seems to me the 15k hz transients would also be rolled off to the point any decent 1/2" condenser would beat it as they would show transients at 20k without the rolloffs.

There is a reason all measurement mics are condensers, not ribbons. Ribbons do not have the frequency range due to it's physics.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades