Anyone using aftermarket AC cords?

[hollywood_steve]

On the Bryston website (and they are the kind of guys that actually listen to the sound of electronic components) :

A/C POWER CABLES
When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get.

THANK YOU! now will everyone please read this, accept it as the truth and get on with your lives? Any disagreement with this requires total ignorance of basic physical realities. Please get over it and move on, we've got real gear issues to discuss......

[toledo3]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
On the Bryston website (and they are the kind of guys that actually listen to the sound of electronic components) :

A/C POWER CABLES
When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get.

THANK YOU! now will everyone please read this, accept it as the truth and get on with your lives? Any disagreement with this requires total ignorance of basic physical realities. Please get over it and move on, we've got real gear issues to discuss......

Yeah, that's what I came in and wrote on the THIRD page or so- I thought it would be resolved already.


Dot, you are walking a pretty damn thin line already, reccomending things like the C1 above a tlm 103- hey if that's the way you feel- cool. But don't think that it doesn't raise some eyebrows. Now when you come out with this cable bullshit, your credibility is SERIOUSLY erroding. You might want to think about this a little bit. How can you have a valid rep for plugging products, like you do for a living, and go this far into quasi-science? dfegad

[kevinc]

In spite of my ranting before there is a very simple question that never got answered.


Why would someone release a $4000 compressor that had a flaw in the power cord of all things.


I hate to say it but the people building these things know a hell of a lot more about electricity than 99% of the people posting here if not more.

I have a really hard time believing they`re just "not onto it yet"
or trying to make it more economical.


If it turns out these companies ARE using better cables then we should all easily be able to test our own cables in our own studios and tell some differences without having to go through the trouble of picking up the ones you guys are talking about.
Right or wrong ?

That`s the nicer version that isn`t beer or lack of sleep influenced in anyway.


Will one of you guys give me a good answer to these two questions please ?

[edmann]

Originally posted by kevinc
That`s the nicer version that isn`t beer or lack of sleep influenced in anyway.

or: "...sleep or lack of beer influenced..."

sorry kev - couldn't resist

[kevinc]

Too true Edmann my good fellow.

It`s either one or the other.

Or lack of work influenced which is why I`ve been around here so damn much lately.

[Ianneve]

LOL. Like I said. Take a Monster ac cable, plug it into your guitar amp. More low end, more punch. Period the end. I don't care what science or you or anyone says. And if you can't hear it, lucky you. About all this other stuff I have no idea and I don't care and I have no idea but I do know of what I am speaking. So don't you or anyone else tell me I don't untill after you have tried it and then and only then will we know if you can hear well enough to hear it. :>) I'm done with this topic. It's rediculous. Yeah iIm the tired one today.

[maostro]

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to record your guitar amp with and without the AC cable? If the difference is so great I'm sure it would be apparent on a WAV file.

[Dot]

Originally posted by toledo3
Now when you come out with this cable bullshit, your credibility is SERIOUSLY erroding. You might want to think about this a little bit. How can you have a valid rep for plugging products, like you do for a living, and go this far into quasi-science?

George, I plug stuff in and I listen. I use gear on sessions and I listen. I've done a lot of critical listening. I didn't start this topic with any big case to present or prove to the world. I merely posted that I'd tried some good aftermarket AC cables on the monitors and DA converter - and was surprised I heard a difference. And other people with first-hand experience are coming along in this topic and posting they hear a difference, too.

The recording community is years behind the audiophile community. Most modern recording studios sound like ass as far as critical listening environments - consoles splashing early reflections, glass behind the monitors, PVC [ which acts as a capacitor ] in cables smearing audio, fan and machine noise, miles of cabling picking up RF interference.

I'm not introducing "quasi-science" at all. But at the same time I don't need science to tell me what I hear. Science can not detect every little nuance of sound. And most measurements are taken with sine waves, which is only a tiny fraction of the whole picture. If "science" had all the answers, why would someone like Klaus Heyne tweak high-end mics with not much more than a pair of old trusty headphones and his voice. To quote Dave Royer in one of the conversations I've had with him, "All this is more art than science."

I've had conversations with Pierre Sprey of Maple Shade Records. He said that he's measured differences in AC cables using an oscilloscope. I asked him why he hadn't written any papers on his findings, and he said he's too busy working to write a paper to prove something he already knows. Look, some people here laughed at his "tweaks" page. And while I've been laughing at some of the great humor in this thread, keep in mind that Sprey is a former NASA physicist and he was also one of the designers of the A-10 "Worthog" http://www.a-10.org/ . He is an empirical scientist!

Mike Vans Evers is also a scientist. These guys are not practicing any kind of "voodoo". In fact to me it's anti-voodoo. They're working to dispell long-held beliefs and ignorance and simply give people better recordings and a better listening experience. I think it's "voodoo" to just go along with all the monkey-see, monkey do. You can't tell me that all the NS10's sitting on consoles in recording studios is anything more than "voodoo". People saw these bookshelf speakers on a high-end console in a picture on the cover of a recording magazine - and everyone fell in line.

I don't know what the figures are, but I'm sure the percentage of musicians and engineers who have fried their hearing from exposure to loud amps and high-decible studio monitoring is fairly high. The bottom line is a lot of people jumping up and down saying there's no audible difference in cables either haven't tried it first-hand in a good critical listening environment, or else they just can't hear well enough. My wife can see stuff I can't see. We all don't have equal eyesight, and we all don't have equal hearing/listening abilities either.

[toledo3]

Dot, to each their own.

[Dot]

George, have you spent any time listening and comparing to see if you can hear an audible difference between, say, monitors in your studio with better AC cables as compared to the stock AC cables?

[toledo3]

Originally posted by Dot
George, have you spent any time listening and comparing to see if you can hear an audible difference between, say, monitors in your studio with better AC cables as compared to the stock AC cables?

Dot, there is a point of diminishing returns with any kind of endeavor. If your quest for quality sound has led you down this path, far be it from me to discourage you.

If you are concerned about the quality of your power, start with the box, and what's in the walls. Think about getting an equitech. The a/c cords supplied with modern gear are generally the same cords they were designed with, and will deliver manufacturer spec. There is such a thing as "putting the cart before the horse"...

The rating of the a/c cord is going to make a bigger difference in longer runs- that will cause the gear to no longer work within spec. If you are using the provided cabling and keeping it short, or shorter than the provided cabling.... or even hard wiring, that is about the best you can do as far as a/c cabling goes, IMO.

[maostro]

Originally posted by Dot

I've had conversations with Pierre Sprey of Maple Shade Records. He said that he's measured differences in AC cables using an oscilloscope. I asked him why he hadn't written any papers on his findings, and he said he's too busy working to write a paper to prove something he already knows. Look, some people here laughed at his "tweaks" page. And while I've been laughing at some of the great humor in this thread, keep in mind that Sprey is a former NASA physicist and he was also one of the designers of the A-10 "Worthog" http://www.a-10.org/ . He is an empirical scientist!

I would love to know exactly what he measured with his oscilloscope. I don't think this needs a paper, just a paragraph. Perhaps you could ask him. I'm sure as a scientist he'd be glad to communicate to others what he's discovered. Perhaps as a scientist he also has a theory as to why AC cables do make a difference.

I keep being surprised by how much effort and time the pro-AC-cable guys keep putting into their posts when in less time you could put the issue to rest. Just record a WAV file! Why is this such a problem for all you guys?

[Dot]

I guess that's a "no" then, George. You haven't tried different AC cables in your own environment.

Originally posted by toledo3
Dot, there is a point of diminishing returns with any kind of endeavor.

I totally agree. And the reality check here is that we're not talking about a $500K console - we're talking about a few hundred dollars worth of cables.

If your quest for quality sound has led you down this path, far be it from me to discourage you.

Really? I thought you pretty much had me figured for a quack with your posting "discouraging" comments like...

Originally posted by toledo3
Now when you come out with this cable bullshit, your credibility is SERIOUSLY erroding. You might want to think about this a little bit. How can you have a valid rep for plugging products, like you do for a living, and go this far into quasi-science?

maostro, all I've done at this point is said I've heard an improved difference on my monitors and DA converter using Danny McKinney's Requisite Audio AC cables. How would you suggest I make a WAV file of that? I don't need to put any issue to rest. I know what I hear. I also don't need to do people's homework for them. When people talk about gear in these forums and somone makes a suggestion, people don't jump up and down and ask them to post a WAV file. I don't see replies such as, "I don't believe the DAC1 really makes a difference. Prove it to me and post a WAV file."

I'm not against trying to make some A/B recordings of some sort, but it ain't gonna be tomorrow.

I'll contact Pierre Sprey and get some more comments on his findings using an oscilloscope.

[edmann]

Originally posted by Dot
I totally agree. And the reality check here is that we're not talking about a $500K console - we're talking about a few hundred dollars worth of cables.

...When people talk about gear in these forums and somone makes a suggestion, people don't jump up and down and ask them to post a WAV file. I don't see replies such as, "I don't believe the DAC1 really makes a difference. Prove it to me and post a WAV file."

Dot - with all due respect:

Money: we are more likely talking about thousands - not hundreds of dollars - for AC cables (and in the case of vansevers - "resonators" and xylophones to support the AC/audio cables) A BIG Part of this debate is because those AC cables cost so MUCH money. Indeed, John Risch (link from your Project Studio Handbook site) is the ONLY guy I have read who speaks of what is inside and how to construct the same cable for pennies on the dollar.

Science: If Mike Vans Evers et al are scientists (and I have no reason to doubt that they are), then they should be no strangers to creating and presenting a bit of scientific data, especially at those prices.

Voodoo: is a practice that is shouded in secrecy, with extensive initiation rites required for the very few who are selected to learn the system. NS10's on the console bridge as seen on a magazine cover is billboard stuff. Really - no comparison, and no secrecy involved. Indeed Mike Vansevers even makes (expensive) wood blocks for instrumentalists to wear on their person - saying that it makes their instruments sound better when they play. The work of Vansevers etc does fall closer to the Voodoo analogy - shouded in secrecy - as all they are willing to say is "it sounds better - just ask so and so..." Again if this is true it does not seem like a far stretch to record the instrumentalists "With Wood and Without Wood" so the manufacturer-stated claims can be verified in an objective way.

Audiophile Home Stereo Enthusiasts: Are not neccesarally miles ahead of the pro-audio world. That gear is heavily tweeked to deliver sparkly-pleasing results, and priced for those with lots of disposable income. I presume that the markup on this gear is miles beyond that seen in the pro-audio world. Very respected audio pros (guys from "our" side of the production fence) speak of the materials and methods that are used to manufacture sparkly-sounding gear, including the use of silver to create a form of high-end ringing distortion that the human ear interprets as pleasing, etc. In my early days I used this kind of gear to produce my music. The result was that when I took those recordings to other environments for playback, the sound was dull and smeared. Those recordings sounded great however when played back on the system that was used to create them.

Production Environments That Sound Like Ass Compared With A Home Theater Sound System: have (for decades) produced all those GREAT records that sound KILLER on those $50,000 Home Theater Setups.

So let's have the debate, but let's remain objective and not go throwing innacurate terminology and examples around. This way we can get closer to a real understanding of What Is What, What is really worth spending LOTS of money on, and if indeed those same designs can be had for literally a tiny fraction of what Vansevers et al charge.

respectfully,


Ed

[edmann]

gotta state this just to be clear (re: previous post):

In no way do I mean to state that real Voodoo is a hoax. It is absolutely real, I know of people who practice it, and I know someone who died from it. To those who are initiated into the practice, there are methods that are taught and passed on from teacher to student. But these secrets are (by neccesity) closely guarded, as Voodoo is powerful stuff and can heal or kill people.

So to be more accurate - I should say that Mike Vansevers et al ACT as though their research and products are Voodoo-like, and since this is physical/electrical hardware, that is hard to understand.

ok, thanks -

Ed

[Ruphus]

Originally posted by maostro
Perhaps as a scientist he also has a theory as to why AC cables do make a difference.

No that I had any idea myself ( too less technically knowledged and no practical experience ), but one possibility has been mentioned in this thread earlier by Bob Olhsson.

To my ears it doesn´t sound too absurd.

In many cases these are a bit loose and corroded from having never been touched since the building was originally constructed. Each corroded connection becomes a radio detector that any changes to your wiring will "tune" and thus alter the RFI in the power supplies. Cables making big changes to sound is almost always, in my experience, a sign of funky AC wiring, funky power supplies or both! I'm pretty convinced this is why people have such a broad range of experiences with wire.

Ruphus

[Dot]

Hi Ed, have you compared any aftermarket AC cables in your studio to stock AC cables?

I'm sure better AC cables can be made at home for cents on the dollar. But I also know that Requisite Audio made and tested over 100 different cables before arriving at the mastering AC cable they produce. I also know that a single AC cable takes almost an entire day for them to make by hand.

But, hell, none of that even makes any difference if there is no change in the audio signal due to the AC cable.

One easy way to find out would be to order a good but inexpensive $49 AC cord and try it out. http://www.gttgroup.com/absolutepower.html

If you find out for yourself that there is a difference, then you can go from there as far as what you might like to do in the future to upgrade some of the AC cables in your studio. OTOH, if you don't hear a difference, then you don't hear a difference.

[bobmaus]

I have to side with Dan on this, if you haven't listened and compared, then your'e talking trash since you haven't heard the difference. And what ever logic you're using ain't gonna get you the answer. Hell the earth could be flat for all you know.

When I first tried out the Requisite AC cords I was skeptical; not quite as "voodoo" oriented like some of the folks here. But after demoing for hours with other engineers we all had to confess there is a difference. The difference can be dramatic depending on what gear your are using and the accuracy of your monitors. If you expect to plug a "boutique" AC cable into a Mackie mixer and listen through NS10s and hear a world of change, forget about it.

These cables are for real, I know cause I took the time to demo them. I don't have any scientific data to present and I'd love to know "why" they work.

Bob

[ajcamlet]

fine than we're all full of shit. because those who cannot come up with a simple friggen comparison graph or empiracle evidence *in ANY form*after and 18 page thread are equally full of shit.

We wont spend the $$ to listen, you wont take the time to support your argument scientifically.

End of Story.

[edmann]

Dot and bobmaus -

you guys miss the point of what I am saying, so perhaps I have not stated it well.

I am not saying that these expensive after-market cables don't function as stated. I am saying that the evidence would appear to support that notion that they are way over-priced, and that it is a mystery why a scientist-manufacturer would not leverage their training so as to provide a bit of science along with anecdote. The fact that science is not included in the spec (I think) creates a situation where one has to engage the willingness to suspend their disbelief - and that is one of the tenets Voodoo and other religious practice. However, this is not religion - this is hardware.

The point is not whether I or anyone else have tried the cables. Whether I have or have not means nothing. The point is that IF it is real, it should be documentable in a repeatable-scientific fashion.

the analogy of the man tuning microphones with his ears only is very concrete - like tuning a drum. Record it and the improvment is noticed right away, and those tuning-improvments could absolutely be shown on a measurement device that was callibrated and directed to show the efficiency and functionality of the membrane tension coupled with the electronics, whether such a device exists or not.

So to be clear: I am not saying that specs-on-paper prove better sound - I am saying that better sound can also be shown as specs-on-paper. If these guys have the know-how to create these magic cables, then they certainly have the know-how to create measurement devices that will show What and Why...again especially at those prices.

What do you say to Vansevers' pocket wood-blocks to improve the resonant efficiency of the musical instrument that the player is holding? Or the Zebrawood floor-xylophones to improve the resonant efficiency of cabling? Seriously - I am not dishing it - I am asking for your opinions. And of course - any science from Mike Vansevers is welcome. I applaud his willingness to push the envelope and put himself out on a limb.

[Ruphus]

Don´t know what could be technically right or wrong about AC cables, but one thing looks certain to me; times where 50$ for an AC cable is considered inexpensive are definitly crazy times.

Just besides the topic.

Ruphus

[Ruphus]

Hah! Your post wasn´t there when I started typing, Ed. Seems we had a similar idea. Although it appears to be for shame to talk about usury in the audio world.

Ruphus

[edmann]

Originally posted by Ruphus
Don´t know what could be technically right or wrong about AC cables, but one thing looks certain to me; times where 50$ for an AC cable is considered inexpensive are definitly crazy times.

Sorry to say Ruphus that these cables cost more than $50.00

Some of these AC cables run as high as $1500 per-piece, according to Lynn Fuston. It is common to see A-M AC cables that cost several hundred dollars each....

[Ruphus]

Yes, I knew that.
You can estimate my thoughts when I say 50$ to be already expensive.

Greets,

Ruphus

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by edmann
gotta state this just to be clear (re: previous post):

In no way do I mean to state that real Voodoo is a hoax. It is absolutely real, I know of people who practice it, and I know someone who died from it. To those who are initiated into the practice, there are methods that are taught and passed on from teacher to student. But these secrets are (by neccesity) closely guarded, as Voodoo is powerful stuff and can heal or kill people.

So to be more accurate - I should say that Mike Vansevers et al ACT as though their research and products are Voodoo-like, and since this is physical/electrical hardware, that is hard to understand.

ok, thanks -

Ed

Thanks Ed!
I'd definitely rather take on Maple Shade Records than the real Voudoun!

[mikedaul]

But after demoing for hours with other engineers we all had to confess there is a difference.

Ummm, maybe that was the problem? Evar hear of a little thing called fatigue?

[Dot]

Hi, ajcamlet, have you tried any aftermarket AC cables in your studio?

You know what? I haven't been scurrying around trying to find "factual" empirical evidence. Maybe it's around. I dunno. That's not my burden. If you need scientific evidence, then you look for it. Can you tell exactly how a mic sounds by reading the specs and a polar plot? Can you scientifically prove to me that an API mic pre sounds any better than a Mackie mic pre?

I would have let this thread fall to the bottom days ago. The people who have kept this topic going are mostly those who've never even tried one of these AC cables.

Man, if every topic was like this... I can see it now...

Topic: Hey, check out the new Chandler TG2
Average response: "Scientifically prove it to me it sounds better!"

Topic: The DAC1 rocks
Average response: "Prove it, man. Post a WAV file."

Topic: ADAMs monitors sound awesome
Average response: "I don't believe the hype. Post a WAV file of the monitors."

Topic: Which drums have been scientifically proven to be the best?

Topic: Nora Jones CD, wow!
Average response: "Scientifically prove to me that Nora Jones is better than Korn."

Originally posted by Ruphus
Don´t know what could be technically right or wrong about AC cables, but one thing looks certain to me; times where 50$ for an AC cable is considered inexpensive are definitly crazy times.

Ah, but Ruphus, these are crazy great times! Not too long ago if you wanted to get into even a mid-level 2" 24-track deck like the Otari MTR-90, those suckers ran $95,000. Say it with me, "Ninety five thooooouuuusand dollars." And that's just the deck. You also need a console, mics, outboard, monitors, space...

C'mon, people can set up great complete systems these days starting at under $20K.

BTW, AC cables can get more expensive than $1500. : ) Not that I'm buyin' any – but they can get up there. I guess people who buy the $78, 000 turntable might want something nice to plug it in.

[edmann]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
Thanks Ed!
I'd definitely rather take on Maple Shade Records than the real Voudoun!

I am with you Ted - although to be fair, my understanding is that the practice is more often used for Good than Bad....but one thing that I do know is that we (as westerners) can never really understand it. This is an aspect of mysticism that has been leeched out of our culture for hundreds/thousands of generations and that our even our ancestors had no clue about (unless we go back to our original common ancestry beginning in Africa)

But i guess that is another thread, and one where I would only be the student.

[Ruphus]

Originally posted by Dot



Ah, but Ruphus, these are crazy great times! Not too long ago if you wanted to get into even a mid-level 2" 24-track deck like the Otari MTR-90, those suckers ran $95,000. Say it with me, "Ninety five thooooouuuusand dollars." And that's just the deck. You also need a console, mics, outboard, monitors, space...

C'mon, people can set up great complete systems these days starting at under $20K.

That is true, Dan, and I´m really thankful for the sonic qualities we can have now for an amount average folks like me can pay ( at least on the long run ).
However the reasons for the pricing of the past are manifold.
It doesn´t serve as a logical answer for the present.

What you get as an AC cable for 50$ is without question overpriced. As I said it in other threads before. The pricing is oriented on where you can get people to and not too often related to the actual goods.

Many think that would be alright. I think they just don´t get the idea how we all could be living without usury.
Just my 2 cents.

Ruphus

[kevinc]

I`m going to say it a third time. Why would the makers and manufacturers of high end audio equipment sell us gear for $4000 plus and skimp out by not adding a decent power cable ?


I have a feeling they know more about this than any of us and wouldn`t do that if it made a difference in their product.


I`d like to hear what Hutch or Geoff Tanner has to say about this more than you.