Anyone using aftermarket AC cords?

[bluelang]

Originally posted by Dot


If anyone here is really serious about this, I'm sure you could contact any number of these companies and get a few AC cables on loan from them.

i did. they never emailed me back.

[Dot]

What companies did you contact?

Also on this:

Originally posted by bluelang
i just emailed dan to ask him to loan me a cable for some blind testing.

I never got an email or a PM from you.

I can also tell you that with a few emails I now have 20 or more cables here. I requested three runs of 6' or two meter long AC cables. I have cables here from Mapleshade Record ( Pierre Sprey ), PS Audio, Harmonic Technology, Cardas, and Requisite Audio and some on the way from Shunyata and JPS Labs.

[Dot]

Originally posted by jslator
It's as if someone were to say that they hear a big difference in mic'ing a vocalist, depending on whether the vocalist is facing west or east, and that a west-facing vocalist sounds much better.

A west-facing singer would probably tend to sound better with an east-facing cardioid-pattern mic. So, I can definitely see cases where a west-facing singer would clearly sound better.

[hollywood_steve]

When you're working on a session, do you break out your spec sheets on your microphones or preamps in order to select which ones you'll use? No, you don't. You go by your experience of using the mics and pres in different applications. Because the specs will tell you absolutely nothing about how something actually sounds. You go by your experience, which is based on listening.


But those differences are based on items that all share a common, accepted technology, condenser microphones for example, or El-Op compressors. If someone handed me a cardboard tube from a roll of toilet paper and said this sounds better than my U87, I wouldn't waste my time with a listening test; it just doesn't pass the smell test.

If something drastically different from the accepted norm is offered up as the greatest thing since toast (the food, not the software), most of us are at least moderately interested in what technological breakthrough allowed for this sudden paradigm shift. If it seems based on sound concepts, then a listening test is in order. But if it looks and sounds more like something from a late night info-mercial, it never makes it through the door.

Getting electrical current from point A to point B is not bleeding edge technology with many unexplored possibilities. Other than some hugely non-practical experiments being done with materials at super low temperatures (approaching absolute zero), the rules of conductivity are pretty well understood. So if someone claims that his $700 piece of wire passes electrons better than my $10 piece of wire, he either has to publish some groundbreaking scientific discovery, or he should expect to be called a snake oil salesman.

[Dot]

Interesting article here. "AC and YOU: A New Era"
http://www.boundforsound.com/tweak.htm

[ Scroll down. The article is the second one on the page. ]

An excerpt with two cheap experiments to see first hand if affecting the AC will give any different sonic results.

But, not everyone will believe in what I am about to say, and for them I have a little experiment that they can do to prove the validity of my point. If AC line conditioning is a hoax, and not capable of improving the sonics of a component, then the addition of some simple filtering should not have a deleterious effect either. In other words, if I can’t improve it then I shouldn’t be able to harm it or change the sonics of a system in any way by doing a little something to the AC. If you are one of the doubters, try this: Take a little light penetrating oil, almost anything of quality will do, and spread it on the three prongs of the plug to your power amplifier, preamp, ODAP, whatever. Put the oil on lightly with a swab, making sure that there is no excess residue on the prongs before putting it in the wall socket. The lighter the better, and absolutely no dripping. (You could do a great deal of damage with overenthusiasm.) Plug it in the wall and listen. If you are an honest human being you will have to admit that the sonics of your system have changed, and the heavier the oil (some use automotive electronic grease!) the more drastic the change will be. If you don’t hear it, don’t look at me, look for a qualified audiologist to get your ears (and brain) tested. And if a very light film of oil can bring on such easily observable changes in the sonics of a system, then why can’t filters, power cords, and the like do the same, or even more?

Now, if for some reason you don’t like the change wrought by the penetrating oil on the prongs, the situation is easily reversed by simply going to any hardware store and buying some 49 cent Eagle wall outlets. These work better than the Hubbels (Pierre Sprey at Mapleshade and Bob Crump at TG are in full agreement with me on this point), and they cost almost nothing. Replace your old outlets with them, and you’re back to square one (but you’ll also notice an immediate improvement due to the Eagles alone).

AC is serious stuff. I wouldn’t have placed this article in the #1 position of BFS were it not for the fact that I want everyone to see it and read it. You simply can’t do more to improve the sound of your system than by making a few improvements to the juice flowing to your equipment, and that includes buying super expensive gear to replace the old stuff. Time after time again, I’ve seen a simple, relatively inexpensive system with great AC line filtering outperform the super expensive one plugged directly into the wall. Yes, a better preamp or amp will affect the sound of a system, but not nearly to the extent that AC line filtering will, nor is a new preamp or amp usually as cost effective. Cost effective? Think of it this way. If you buy a new preamp that is a better performer than your old one, then what you have is a better preamp, nothing else. If you buy a Chang Lightspeed, a VansEvers Clean Line, or TG Audio Bybee-Sucker, all with multiple outlets, then you have improved each and every product plugged into it. It’s like a new preamp, a new ODAP, a new transport, a new turntable, a new tuner, etc. See the cost effectiveness?

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
If someone handed me a cardboard tube from a roll of toilet paper and said this sounds better than my U87, I wouldn't waste my time with a listening test; it just doesn't pass the smell test.

Wait.

Are you talking about the cardboard tube or the paper from the tube? 'Cause I'd imagine that the cardboard doesn't smell that bad..but the paper...the paper.

That's a whole other can 'o worms.

Well, can 'o something.

[oudplayer]

Originally posted by Dot
So, you're saying that an online UPS reduces noise in the system?

That would seem to change the sonics of the system. Yes? So that's not merely a matter of power being a black/white case of either working or not working. Cleaner power can also affect how the system sounds.

Online UPS devices, in conjunction with EMI/ RF filtering can reduce broadband noise in situations where there is a shared or contaminated ground (many light industrial services, for example). However, the difference between treated AC and nontreated is not of frequency balance, stereo image, warmth, or the like, but simply the absence or presence of additional broadband noise. Thus, power conditioning is a solution to a particular problem - noise in analog circuits. Not all power conditioning strategies produce the same results, however - MOV-based strategies may work for a period of time, but tend to wear out within a few years and become an additional source of noise. If there is no noise in your analog system, this is not the type of solution you would jump to implement, since it's a solution to a common problem ("the noisy grid"). If you have your own generators and inverters, for example, there is considerably less benefit to implementing such solutions.

In contrast, it is not clear what problem AC cords address. Not any clearer after 400 some posts, despite the incredible postulations (sometimes masquerading as data) and physiological metaphors (choking vs. expansive) that have been suggested.

Parametric EQ is a solution to a particular mixing problem - how to control frequency information. Compression is a solution to another one - how to control dynamics in audio signals. Certain devices reduce broadband noise; other ones reduce more specific frequency-limited noise. Other ones add harmonic distortion of the supposedly desirable kind (second and third order harmonics), often considered lacking elements in digital systems. Thus, we choose our tools based on working needs - new tools are invented as new needs emerge. What need does specialty AC cords address? Perhaps there is one, but it has yet to be demonstrated, particularly since it's not clear in any single case exactly what they do.

[edmann]

Originally posted by Dot


I can also tell you that with a few emails I now have 20 or more cables here.

Dan - send me a Magic AC cable. Tell me where it is best implimented - and I will give you my subjective response, and send it back.

PM to confirm - and i will respond.

Ed

[MattiMattMatt]

DOT:

First you say "look at the scientific data" and then, when it turns out not to exist, you criticize those who sought it out at your suggestion.

You say AC cords make a difference... great. We say, let's check it out. Show us some measurements. Turns out, they don't exist. And then you say [paraphrasing here] 'but you all don't require measurements when comparing mics or speakers, you just share your subjective opinions.' THAT IS BECAUSE MEASUREMENTS ALREADY AND EASILLY DEMONSTRATE DIFFERENCES AMOUNG THEM. Similarly, if one AC cord sounds different from another, measurements should easilly support that claim as well. But no such measurements exist, at least that I've seen.

And what do you say?

"Interesting we have a budding group of "scientists" particularly in this thread. Whereas in every other thread there is no scientific method for any of the conversations in Gearsultz. It's all purely value judgements."

You're demeaning reasonable people who are attempting to explore your assertion in reasonable ways. No one requires scientific measurements when comparing microphones because microphones already and easilly exceed that threshold. However, differences between AC cords have yet to pass the threshold of registering on any sort of demonstrable, reliable measurement.

Galileo calculated that if Earth were the center of the Solar System and universe, Venus would never appear as more than a crescent. The variously-lighted shapes of Venus could only occur if Venus and Earth revolved around the Sun, rather than Venus and the Sun revolving around Earth. His measurements disproved conventional wisdom.

You too are saying something counterintuitive, but there appear to be no such measurements to back it up. Instead, you insult those who take your assertion seriously enough to look into it. If you were correct, as Galileo was correct, you'd encourage them to look into it and be able to produce measurements that support it.

AND ANOTHER THING:

When Bluelang said he emailed Dan to get a loaner cable, you responded "I never got an email or a PM from you" -- doesn't this suggest that you are in bed with a company that sells these things???

And the fact that you say: "I can also tell you that with a few emails I now have 20 or more cables here. I requested three runs of 6' or two meter long AC cables. I have cables here from Mapleshade Record ( Pierre Sprey ), PS Audio, Harmonic Technology, Cardas, and Requisite Audio and some on the way from Shunyata and JPS Labs." tells me something else. You love these things. You're one of those audiophile/weekend writer types who has discovered that companies will send you stuff if you write and/or proselytize about it (which you're doing now). You love this stuff and you want it all over your house. You want it spilling out of your cabinets, strewn accross your floor, and spilling off of your tables. Twenty??!! It's like you have some wierd relationship with them, resent it when others doubt them, and respond as if personally attacked when reasonable people question their value. You're starting to sound like Willard protecting his rats.

-MattiMattMatt

[Ted Nightshade]

Perhaps he just knows how to ask?

I say we ought to figure out a way to take advantage of the availability, to Dot at least, of all those cords, and do some methodical testing. Any constructive ideas of how? Dot, are you game?

[Dot]

Originally posted by MattiMattMatt


First you say "look at the scientific data"

Please show me where I said that, Matt.

Originally posted by MattiMattMatt
You say AC cords make a difference... great. We say, let's check it out. Show us some measurements.

Who's "we". There's a lot of people in this thread who've actually used some of these cables - and they hear a difference. You are as welcome as anyone here to "check it out" for yourself.

Originally posted by MattiMattMatt
When Bluelang said he emailed Dan to get a loaner cable, you responded "I never got an email or a PM from you" -- doesn't this suggest that you are in bed with a company that sells these things???

Wow, that's a really intelligent conclusion, Matt. Could it possibly have been because I didn't receive anything from bluelang? But, oops, you're obviously a sharp cookie and you caught me. I am getting paid ten million dollars by an underground consortium of AC cable manufacturers to post here.

Originally posted by MattiMattMatt
You're one of those audiophile/weekend writer types who has discovered that companies will send you stuff if you write and/or proselytize about it (which you're doing now). You love this stuff and you want it all over your house. You want it spilling out of your cabinets, strewn accross your floor, and spilling off of your tables. Twenty??!!

Boy, Matt, you are a smart one. And you've nailed me again. Yes, I am a pipe-smoking, scotch-drinking audiophile who wants nothing more than to have my house smothered in expensive AC cables. I can not get enough of them - and twenty is not nearly enough. I also need AC cords on everything in my house. A good AC cord on my toaster makes better toast - it tastes "warmer". The performance of my Waterpick is greatly enhanced with a $2000 AC cable. My teeth gleam. The Weedwacker slices through tall grass like a Katana sword once I connected a Requisite AC cable. And not only does my lawn look better - it actually sounds better! You should hear it. I couldn't believe it myself. Actually, I found out that when I connected a $2000 AC cable to the water sprinkler system that I can tune my lawn.

Here's my lawn before [ using a stock AC cable ] and after [ using an aftermarket AC cable ]

[Brent Casey]

.









Trees are made of wood.

[David R.]

Dan, LMAO!

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Will a better power cable make a PC sound like a mac?

[sphereman]

It seems to me that your only as good as your source. That is the $2.00 wall outlet and the 10cent/foot romex in the wall. Maybe an AC cord made out of romex with nice ends on it would be the most seamless integration to the gear.

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally posted by MattiMattMatt
First you say "look at the scientific data"

Originally posted by Dot
Please show me where I said that, Matt.

HERE:

Originally posted by Dot
For you folks who want some data, here's some data.
http://www.vansevers.com/wpthree.html

Originally posted by MattiMattMatt

You say AC cords make a difference... great. We say, let's check it out. Show us some measurements.

Originally posted by Dot
Who's "we".

We = people like myself who have an open mind, but would simply like to see one trice, one whiff, one dollop of demonstrable evidence that paying a bunch of money for an AC cord makes a trice, a whiff, or a dollop of difference.

Originally posted by Dot
you're obviously a sharp cookie...

Thank you. And you are a helluva guy. So here we are. A sharp cookie (me), and a helluva guy (you). So answer me this:

If third-party AC cables improve audio quality, wouldn't that suggest that something was lacking in all those AC cables that come with the things that we buy?

Yet why is

1) no fancy shmancy pro audio equipment manufacturer investing in and extolling the virtues of its AC cables?

2) the audio community not demanding an overall boost in the standards of AC cords that come with stuff?

(After all, according to you, every piece of equipment in the universe is hobbled unless paired with an AC cable produced by a third party)

[toledo3]

Originally posted by Dot


When people started posting in gm's forum about ADAM monitors, no one asked for "data". They listened for themselves and decided. I've never seen anyone ask for data in a mic pre thread. And actually, much of the "data" in the audio industry will tell you next to nothing about how a product actually sounds integrated into your system.
[/B]

Well, the ADAMs were designed by Klaus Heyne, and the folded ribbon technology was invented by Dr. Oskar Heil in 1972.... Pretty heayweight names. And actually, you are wrong, plenty of people asked for data.... that's just a weird comment.

[Dot]

George, thanks for the correction on the ADAM threads.

BTW, there are "heavyweights" involved with some of the AC cables as well, including Pierre Sprey, Danny McKinney and Caelin Gabriel.

Matt, I didn't start this thread saying, "First, let's look at some scientific data." I gave a link some 30 pages later for some people who wanted to look at some data. They can make of it what they will.

(After all, according to you, every piece of equipment in the universe is hobbled unless paired with an AC cable produced by a third party)

That's bullshit, really. I just started this thread because I had some cables here and heard a difference, and was interested if others had as well. Turns out I wasn't alone. You're mistaking me for an evangelist, when I'm really just someone who's started to look into this area. I am not out to "scientifically" prove to anyone that these cables can be shown in measurable tests to affect sonics. If I run into some data in my research - and believe me, I'm checking into it - I'll post links to that information. While measurable data is one of the factors I'm interested in, I'm most interested in just listening at this point.

And you can't deny my new lawn looks and sounds great.

If you're really that interested, you'd manage to get your hands on some cables and try them out. How you do that and what you find out is up to you.

If third-party AC cables improve audio quality, wouldn't that suggest that something was lacking in all those AC cables that come with the things that we buy?

There are often ways that audio quality can be improved for your system and what you're working on. I was recently speaking with Grant Carpenter at Gordon Audio. He said he had a part he'd really like to put in his mic pres, but it would add $400 to his cost per channel. He said, "Every manufacturer has to stop somewhere." So, from the standpoint of production model components, there is almost always something "lacking". And if the end-user wants to go the extra mile or has a particular need not filled by the production product, that lack can be improved upon. That's the general idea with "aftermarket" products.

[edmann]

Originally posted by MattiMattMatt
HERE:
We = people like myself who have an open mind, but would simply like to see one trice, one whiff, one dollop of demonstrable evidence that paying a bunch of money for an AC cord makes a trice, a whiff, or a dollop of difference.

this hits it right on the Head Dot-Dan. Just like any other piece of expensive audio gear. No, we (the pro-audio community - including you) don't live by the specs, but at the same time a spec sheet is normal for anything from a transistor to a speaker. I big part of this debate is fueled by your stance that these Magic AC cords should be free of that expectation (measurements and specs), and that anyone who challenges that evangelistic assertion is close-minded (and worse). That is not that case.

Speaking for myself (and I think others) I say: I will not spend $175 = $1500 on a piece of wire that can be otherwise had for $5.00 (pretty big difference for those of us who purchase our gear) without some specs and measurement data to back up the claims for the functionality of the things. Just like any other piece of gear - and I can see no reason why thes particular things should be exempt.

One of the reasons that this soap-opera of a thread is so long is that you twist people's questions into exaggerated and distorted mis-statements and then fling them back in the form of an attack. No I am not going to go back and show you "where you did that" - anyone can see it from reading your posts in this thread.

To summarize Dan: I have no idea whether Magic AC cables work or not. I have never tried one. I am not saying they do not work, nor am I saying that they work. I will not buy one until I can see some DATA to support the claims that are made about them, and I will not jump on the Dot-wagon, suspend my disbelief and deem ~these particular~ items to be free of the normal ex-SPEC-tation that applies to every other piece of gear in my studio.

My offer stands! Send me one and I will post my subjective response here in this thread. I am a responsible and honest person - I have been around the music industry for decades and have "credential" (if you will) so fear not in that regard - the cable will be returned to you. I have no position to uphold in this. If the cable makes a difference in sound - I will gladly post that. Since you are the one with all the loaner cables laying around - and have enough of a relationship with the manufacturers that they will send you loaners (given your gig) - obviously the manufacturers want to promote their product. Here is an opportunity. PM me if you are interested.

Ed

[Dot]

Originally posted by edmann
Send me one and I will post my subjective response here in this thread.

I'm not in the position to be sending out cables that do not belong to me. I also need the cables here as part of the review process.

Originally posted by edmann
To summarize Dan: I have no idea whether Magic AC cables work or not. I have never tried one. I am not saying they do not work, nor am I saying that they work. I will not buy one until I can see some DATA to support the claims that are made about them, and I will not jump on the Dot-wagon

There is no bandwagon here, edmann. I'm not asking anyone to jump on anything. This thread was not started to get people to use these cables. This thread was started to ask if there were others using them, and to share their experiences. The topic of this thread is a question: "Anyone using aftermarket AC cords?"

[Boogle]

Originally posted by edmann
Dan - send me a Magic AC cable. Tell me where it is best implimented - and I will give you my subjective response, and send it back.

PM to confirm - and i will respond.

Ed

I know it's between you guy's but just wondered if you will kindly let us all know your subjective thoughts once you recieve the cord?

[Paul Weber]

Hello from a swiss lurker.
I do not use a special power cord but a special galvanic transformer (balanced power, very weighty and expensive...), that feeds 3x3 outlets.
The engineer that builds this transformer also builds his own power cords with a special alloy (copper-silver I think he once said) and a special plastic "jacket", totally differnet from the normal commercial cords you buy in regular shops.

Anyway, the trick (apparently) is to keep the tension flowing through the outlets in a "phase aligned" or "synchronized" manner so all the connected equipment's analog circuitry is oscillating in a synchronous manner (like the Aardvark stuff for the digital domain).
This stuff apparently is in use at the IRCAM in Paris as well, so there must be some kind of positive side to it.

I can only say that the difference in sound is astounding in my studio (which is really only semi-pro).
I was even more shocked when the guy turned the plugs around (here in Europe we use the german Shuco plugs which have only 2 prongs) and I heard the sound change yet again (the bass loses focus).

I can only attest to the fact that clean-balanced-synchronized power *does* have a positive effect on the final sound.
I will try these plugs in my studio if I'll run across them here in Europe... curious to see if my current setup can yet be improved.

Cheers to everyone.
Paul

[Boogle]

Paul Weber welcome. You may well have some questions asked of you...

Anyway where can we find out more about this guy & his transformers please.

[James Lehmann]

By far the most revealing aspect of this epic thread is observing how some people are incapable of making a contribution to it without being abusive, whilst others, despite considerable provocation and ridicule, continue to debate in a constructive and civilized fashion. If I was in the business of looking to hire any of you for a job of work, your public profile and attitude towards people in a Forum such as this would influence my decision 100x more than what AC cables you are using in your studio.

[edmann]

Originally posted by Dot
There is no bandwagon here, edmann. I'm not asking anyone to jump on anything.... This thread was started to ask if there were others using them, and to share their experiences. .

Dan - a quick glance back thru your posts in this thread shows otherwise. I see sarcastic cajoling of those not willing to go and spend $175 without having a few q, assumptions, insults, profanity, urinating squirrels, statements of fact about the "cure" for the "problem" with digital audio, contradictions galore...and blatant promoting of some of the various manufacturers, with whom you have a professional relationship and to whom you have not had to pay anything for the Magic Pile-o-Cords

[Bryce]

Originally posted by toledo3
Well, the ADAMs were designed by Klaus Heyne

Quick point of fact, so as to make sure there's no confusion - Klaus Heyne does mics. The ADAMs are designed by Klaus Heinz. Different guy.

...and now, back to your regular programming...

dB
ADAM Audio USA

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally posted by Edmun to DOT
One of the reasons that this soap-opera of a thread is so long is that you twist people's questions into exaggerated and distorted mis-statements

YES !!! He did it to me too, the weasal!

Originally posted by Dot
I just started this thread because I had some cables here and heard a difference, and was interested if others had as well. Turns out I wasn't alone. You're mistaking me for an evangelist, when I'm really just someone who's started to look into this area.

NO !!! You have 20 frou-frou AC cords on your living room floor. No one who has 20 frou-frou AC cords on their living room floor just, golly jee aw shucks, starts a thread about having a few AC cables lying around that sound real good. Even as a reviewer, you don't wind up with 20 of anything unless you go to great and strange lengths. It's like the proverbial crazy lady with 20 cats. You're the crazy guy with 20 AC cords, and your "I'm just a simple caveman" routine is growing thin.

You ARE an evangelist (or worse). Right now you are staring at a pile of 20 frou-frou AC cords on your living floor. You have not just "started to look into this area" any more than the cat lady surrounded by 20 persians took in a single stray. "I'm just a simple caveman." Yeah, right.

Originally posted by Edmun
Dan - a quick glance back thru your posts in this thread shows otherwise. I see sarcastic cajoling of those not willing to go and spend $175 without having a few q, assumptions, insults, profanity, urinating squirrels, statements of fact about the "cure" for the "problem" with digital audio, contradictions galore...and blatant promoting of some of the various manufacturers, with whom you have a professional relationship and to whom you have not had to pay anything for the Magic Pile-o-Cords

You said it better than I did.

If this thread were a game (and in a way it is), the point would not be to figure out AC cords, but to figure out Dot. He is like a guerilla advertising computer program designed to promote a product under false pretense, all the while flinging away legitimate questions. The length of the thread is a testament to his ability.

The thread gobbles up victim after victim, fueled by the good intentions of innocents who stumble accross it. It's like the 3-card monty games that DOT the sidewalks on Times Square. Wanna know a secret? No one ever wins. The game is rigged. It's a scam, like this thread.

This thread is distorting time and warping the universe, a black hole entrapping all matter and energy in its path. It will destroy us all. It must be stopped. IT MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......

[Dot]

Matt and edmann, take a deep breath, please. I have a project called The Listening Sessions. Look here http://www.thelisteningsessions.com

We do a lot of listening and use a lot of products. I have regular contact and good relationships with most of the manufacturers in the audio industry.

The reason I have - I think - 21 cables is because I requested three 6' runs of each cable. I think I have 7 sets total so far. Part of the process has me using a set of 3 of the same cables - one each on a pair of Dynaudio AIR 15's and one cable on a DAC1.

We also use and listen to a lot of mic pres and microphones. I also managed to get a few small condensers together.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Dot
I also managed to get a few small condensers together.

DAMN that's a slutty picture! i kinda wanna dump milk over 'em and eat them for breakfast.

[toledo3]

Originally posted by Bryce
Quick point of fact, so as to make sure there's no confusion - Klaus Heyne does mics. The ADAMs are designed by Klaus Heinz. Different guy.

...and now, back to your regular programming...

dB
ADAM Audio USA

[edmann]

Originally posted by Dot
I have a project called The Listening Sessions. Look here http://www.thelisteningsessions.com

.... I have regular contact and good relationships with most of the manufacturers in the audio industry.

Indeed Dan I am well aware, and thank you for illustrating my point in such detail.