Anyone using aftermarket AC cords?

[kevinc]

The second one is if there IS varying degrees of sonic quality in these cables shouldn`t we be able to test it at the studio without buying a new cable.

There should be a sonic difference between say a cord that came with an Alesis 3630 and the cord that came with my Vari Mu or MP2-NV if your theories are correct.




As far as the first question is concerned thanks for answering it and I hear you about the car thing but I just think if it were a matter of $50 - $100 extra the high end gear makers would add the price of the cord in.

That`s not a lot to add for units that I think are built to be top sounding pieces regardless of cost.

[toledo3]

Dan has graciously sent his phone numer, and I think we will try to work out an empirical test that can settle some things once and for all.

If we do this, we will definitely get some impartial third parties that are respected engineers to be part of the session. I think I have made it clear where I stand, and it is clear what Dan's take is, but I will certainly keep an open mind.

Dan, I will give you a call tommorrow, I am heading off to teach a lesson in the next hour.

[kevinc]

Originally posted by Dot

And while I'm saying that there are sonic benefits to using better AC cables, I will also put them at the bottom of the totem pole. Unless you have everything else in order - acoustics, monitors, pres, AD, DA... unless you're at a place where you think you've got it as good as you can it - don't bother with AC cables.

That was another of my points way back so your stance kind of makes more sense to me now Dot.

Your just saying you HEARD a difference

You aren`t neccessarily saying we should all go out and spend $2000 on AC cables for our various equipment.

But after we have everything else in place including great converters and a great room and great mic cables for that matter they may make an additional difference according to you.

I`m not sure if I agree but when I get to that point I`ll try one of the $50 models and see if it makes a difference.

For now I`ll stick to the converter upgrade. (and monitors )

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by maostro
This is _very_ different. We are trying to establish here if an AC cable makes ANY difference to a recorded signal. We aren't listening for the qualities of that cable necessarily. Recording two WAVs, with and without the cable would either show a difference or no difference. If there's a difference, I say it's worth investigating futher. I'll volunteer my time to do a signal analysis between the two files as well to see if the effect is _measureable_ as well as audible. If two digital files are identical, there's no audible difference, agreed?

Well since you volunteer your time too, I hope something can come of this.

I can only decide with my ears if there's an audible difference, for what that's worth. Whether or not there's a measurable difference is an important piece of info too.

Of course, a difference may well be, like Brad Blackwood has said, because one cable has something deficient about it, not necessarily that different is better... especially guitar amp that reappears on this thread, what sounds good on a guitar amp is not necessarily what is healthiest on a full-bandwidth non-euphonic type of system.

I'm hoping this will all turn into some kind of sarcasm-free listening test scenario, and glad to see that kind of thing tending to prevail just now.

FWIW, the uncle who designed the warhead triggers- I hope it will turn out that he wired them not to go off... that would really **** up my audio, to say the least!

[toledo3]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade


FWIW, the uncle who designed the warhead triggers- I hope it will turn out that he wired them not to go off... that would really **** up my audio, to say the least!

He, I wish I cannot say that my uncle and I see eye to eye on our political views.

[bluelang]

Disclaimer: I am a deaf rocker.

Man, that's a lot of pages to read. That Steve guy probably had it right 10 pages or so ago - power supplies suck. Transistor output is constantly variable, right? So if the signal in varies, the signal out varies. Most DAC-sized gear isn't going to have the room for a real power supply, because real power supplies are huge. I'd be interested to see what the acceptable tolerance for internal voltage drift is for your average DAC. I'm sure that most of this stuff doesn't get tested on browned power mains at the manufacturer. In fact, I'd bet that most people who manufacture DAC circuitry don't build their own DC supplies - they buy em in bulk from China.

So you kids spending $$$ on AC cables would be much better served by cutting the AC cables off of everything, buying a seriously hardcore DC power supply located in a different room, and converting everything that doesn't make direct use of AC to use your DC line. With a mere $10,000 investment, you could eliminate huge amounts of inaudible and unreproducable artifacting.

Or replace the DC power supples on your critical gear with ones that produce solid output with a high input tolerance - which is hard to do without batteries or giant capacitors. And by hard, I mean "not possible."

The only time a new AC cable is going to make a difference is when the old one is unshielded and/or browning out. Converting your studio to 20amp mains is possibly not a bad idea, altho I'm not sure how much extra noise that'd produce. It is fairly cheap, tho. Maybe $1200 or so.

[Heterodox]

Ok...so what we're basically saying here is:

This is the 306th post. Allowing a general median of 5 seconds to peruse each morsel of genuine intellectual debate, it would roughly take 25 minutes to read this thread, front to back.

Adding in an arbitrary (albeit VERY modest) amount of 10 minutes to compensate for actually connecting to the board, writing your own posts, and following offsite links...

We come to a minimum (and still VERY modest) grand total of 35 minutes that DOT has dedicated to this amazingly DULL discussion. In this time span, at least 5 of those minutes were spent typing "I don't have time to do a test, just try it for yourself!" in a variety of fun and exciting ways.

--

W h a t T h e F u c k ?

--

How about you just spend the extra 10 minutes to make to make the comparison tests?




...shisty..shisty..shisty..shisty..shisty..shisty....

[kevinc]

Originally posted by bluelang
Disclaimer: I am a deaf rocker.

Man, that's a lot of pages to read. That Steve guy probably had it right 10 pages or so ago - power supplies suck. Transistor output is constantly variable, right? So if the signal in varies, the signal out varies. Most DAC-sized gear isn't going to have the room for a real power supply, because real power supplies are huge. I'd be interested to see what the acceptable tolerance for internal voltage drift is for your average DAC. I'm sure that most of this stuff doesn't get tested on browned power mains at the manufacturer. In fact, I'd bet that most people who manufacture DAC circuitry don't build their own DC supplies - they buy em in bulk from China.

So you kids spending $$$ on AC cables would be much better served by cutting the AC cables off of everything, buying a seriously hardcore DC power supply located in a different room, and converting everything that doesn't make direct use of AC to use your DC line. With a mere $10,000 investment, you could eliminate huge amounts of inaudible and unreproducable artifacting.

Or replace the DC power supples on your critical gear with ones that produce solid output with a high input tolerance - which is hard to do without batteries or giant capacitors. And by hard, I mean "not possible."

The only time a new AC cable is going to make a difference is when the old one is unshielded and/or browning out. Converting your studio to 20amp mains is possibly not a bad idea, altho I'm not sure how much extra noise that'd produce. It is fairly cheap, tho. Maybe $1200 or so.

Good first post Man.

I welcome your logic. Keep it up.

[GuruInSpace]

like i allways say.
if you have a small settup like Most of us , all you need for great AC power is 20 amp lines run in MC cable back to your panel . use Hospital grade outlets w/ isolated grounds. each outlet on its own breaker. have a good system ground. most of the time its 2 -8' rods tide in with the street water pipe.

(im a electrician)

[Dot]

Originally posted by Heterodox
In this time span, at least 5 of those minutes were spent typing "I don't have time to do a test, just try it for yourself!" in a variety of fun and exciting ways.

Heterodox, I've got nothing against testing.

What do you propose to be THE test? You map it out. Let's hear would you'd do to "settle this".

[Dot]

bluelang and vartan, thanks for your posts.

BTW, cool music, vartan. I listen to a lot of ambient/chillout. Checking out "Tic Tac Techno".

[GuruInSpace]

Originally posted by Dot
bluelang and vartan, thanks for your posts.

BTW, cool music, vartan. I listen to a lot of ambient/chillout. Checking out "Tic Tac Techno".

dan send me a email. ill send you some mp3s of my dark ambient stuff.
thanks for checkin it out.

[Heterodox]

Jesus...you have got to be kidding me...

I'm about 159% sure that MULTIPLE guidelines for MULTIPLE tests have already been outlined in this 300 post masterpiece. One of them even from me.







Hello...McFly...?

[Dot]

Exactly, all these different tests being thrown out into the air. Some by totally anonymous posters. Seems everyone wants to have a lot of ideas about what ought to get done.

What's THE test, man, that will empirically prove or disprove that AC cable can affect even the slightest sound differences in audio components?

[bluelang]

Originally posted by Dot
Exactly, all these different tests being thrown out into the air. Some by totally anonymous posters. Seems everyone wants to have a lot of ideas about what ought to get done.

What's THE test, man, that will empirically prove or disprove that AC cable can affect even the slightest sound differences in audio components?

I don't think that people are saying that you can't affect audio with an AC cable. If you've got a 200 watt tube amp and some old pizzacrap 30 gauge power cable plugged into it, you're going to have a fire. What I'm reading that you got suckered into paying a shitload of money for a silver AC cable.

Surely you don't believe the psychobabble nonsense about transfluffated ionomasticants and whatnot. It's one thing to discuss ways to make sure that people aren't introducing noise into that last 1% of their signal chain, but it's another thing entirely to be pimping $300-a-pop snake oil.

Did you know that silver has exactly the
same conductivity (for temperatures under 200 deg C) as high-quality copper?

http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article79.htm

And that you can buy (well, they claim it is) top-quality copper wire for around a buck a foot?

http://www.daxx-usa.com/power_wires/power_cable.htm

So it's kind of a leap for me to go from like $10 for a seriously hardcore DIY cable that'll handle hundreds of amps to $300. It's not outside the realm of possibility that that silver somehow makes a difference, but it's damn sure outside the realm of probability that it does.

[Boogle]

Originally posted by toledo3
Dan has graciously sent his phone numer, and I think we will try to work out an empirical test that can settle some things once and for all.

If we do this, we will definitely get some impartial third parties that are respected engineers to be part of the session. I think I have made it clear where I stand, and it is clear what Dan's take is, but I will certainly keep an open mind.

hooray! been lookin' forward to this since the 1st page (in between the side splittin' humour). maybe clarification awaits??

[maostro]

anyone still out there? after the flurry of emails recently i thought for sure one of pro-AC cablers was on the verge of doing the recording test. but everyone seems to have disappeared all of a sudden.

[Ianneve]

Well it's already settled here. :>)

[maostro]

what never fails to amuse me is how audiophiles will talk about their opinions till they're blue in the face but quickly scurry for cover as soon as someone suggests an objective test! it's uncanny and it's far from the first time i've seen it happen.

after twisting every which possible way it looks like the main cable proponents have quietly trotted away.

[shipshape]

this is the funniest thread I have read in years.......maybe it will go on all the way to April fool's day !!!!!!!

[zimv20]

everything is more quiet 'cuz the GS server was upgraded w/ a $300 AC cord

[GuruInSpace]

Originally posted by zimv20
everything is more quiet 'cuz the GS server was upgraded w/ a $300 AC cord

hahahah that was great!

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by maostro
what never fails to amuse me is how audiophiles will talk about their opinions till they're blue in the face but quickly scurry for cover as soon as someone suggests an objective test! it's uncanny and it's far from the first time i've seen it happen.

after twisting every which possible way it looks like the main cable proponents have quietly trotted away.

Maybe I'm just on the wrong topics but things seem real slow on the forums today... I'd just as soon we stayed constructive long enough to get some folks to do some blind tests or something, hopefully pretty thorough and taking things into account like the power service wherever it's done.

We could A/B with and without an Equi=Tech power conditioner here, and conclude that it doesn't do a damn thing. Or we could try it somewhere else with a conditioner-fixable power problem and be crowing about what a miracle machine it is...

Nothing objective about all the pointed comments and that. Can only get in the way of the rapport necessary to get a more meaningful testing done than one person posting a couple .WAV files.

[Duardo]

Lets say we hit a particularly huge bump of 0.1mm. That will cause a delay of about 300 femtoseconds. If any audio manufacturer can design a clock with femtosecond jitter spec I'd love to know about it! The very best ones that people rave about get in the low picoseconds.

Besides, aren't all the samples buffered and the jitter determined by the clock?

-Duardo

[toledo3]

Originally posted by maostro
anyone still out there? after the flurry of emails recently i thought for sure one of pro-AC cablers was on the verge of doing the recording test. but everyone seems to have disappeared all of a sudden.

I will phone Dot tommorow. Remember though- it is a bit much to have people travelling from state to state and such, if it were to happen. Any talks are tentative. There is quite a large contingency of Florida gearslutz though.

[Dot]

Originally posted by maostro
what never fails to amuse me is how audiophiles will talk about their opinions till they're blue in the face but quickly scurry for cover as soon as someone suggests an objective test! it's uncanny and it's far from the first time i've seen it happen.

I dunno' about some of the other people in this thread, but I ain't no audiophile. Just a recording studio guy.

I haven't gone anywhere. I'm doing some research and digging up info from people in different fields. This is going to take awhile.

Excuse me while I go slip into my AcousTrousers.

For your viewing pleasure, here's an Opus 8ft speaker wire. Price: $23,000

[Ianneve]

It's just boring.................................. HELLOOOOO!!!!!!

[maostro]

Originally posted by Duardo
Besides, aren't all the samples buffered and the jitter determined by the clock?

-Duardo

yep, you're right. i also realized that the plastic surface of the disc is optically transparent anyway, so a bump on that plastic surface makes no difference whatsoever.

[maostro]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade

Nothing objective about all the pointed comments and that. Can only get in the way of the rapport necessary to get a more meaningful testing done than one person posting a couple .WAV files.

the wav file test is actually the most meaningful one we could do. think about it for a moment: we're trying to establish whether an AC power cable is doing anything whatsoever in a particular pro-AC-cabler's environment. many people here are skeptical that it has any audible difference at all.

so, recording two wav files, one with and without the cable will be the clearest (and quickest) way to show that it's making SOME difference. no need for anyone to travel. nobody so far has pointed out to me any flaw with this test.

i'll bet you a large amount of money that a test where people have to travel will not happen in anyone's lifetime.

[bluelang]

wouldn't using a scope hooked up to the A end of the DAC be more conclusive/less subjective than a listening test via .wav files? (especially for we deaf rockers :D)