Advice for a beginner

[Razor Blade]

I'm using a royer 122 and a shure sm 57 (I also have an akg 414 and Classic II Rode), for recording guitars and vocals. Hedd and RME 8i/o for converters.

Preamps Great River Mp2nv or Vt737 or TL audio Tubetracker Board or Drawmer 1969

Compressors :Distressors/brit mods, Trakkers, Stc-8, VT 737. Drawmer 1969

If you were tracking a Matchless DC30, what setup would you use and what general settings. I'm trying to get a good track of Rythm Guitars. I'm hoping for some initial settings (ie Loading or impedance on GR) and general settings on compressor choice to get me started.

Wouldnt mind some general advice on Vocal chain/settings if possible.

I need to start somewhere.

Thanks for any advice

[FossilTooth]

Wow. That's a hell of a lot of fancy gear for a beginner.

The only specific question I could find in your thread was about the loading and impedence on the GR. Try the loading both ways on the Great River. They sound different. Whatever works best for the tone you want. the GR manual says Loading in will likely give you more "grit" and "air". I think that's a valid description.

Try the impedance both ways as well. With the mics you have, you'll probably end up on the "standard" setting. The 300ohm has never sounded quite right with a 57 on an amp for me. Who knows, it might just work for you. The 122 is active like a condenser, and was designed not to need special consideration when it comes to a pre's input impedance. The 414 would likely remain on the 1200ohm setting for me as well.

Use your judgement. If you don't have any of that, go get some.

I'd recommend throwing all your nice gear in the closet, getting some garbage, experimenting until you can make it sound good, and then pull your nice stuff back out.

Then you'll be floored.

Good luck to you! Remember to "try stuff".

[FossilTooth]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot:

Your choice of guitar and the settings on your matchless will have a much bigger impact than your choice of a preamp and its settings.

Step 1 is: make it sound good in the room.

Step 2 is: don't F it up.

Step 3 is: do something crazy if it calls for it.

Try all your mics. Know what they sound like on different sources. Figure out a way to describe their character.

If you can't choose between a sm57, a royer, or a combination of the two, you can't choose between anything. Know what your gear sounds like. Then, when everything sounds good in the room, but something still ain't right, you'll know what to change.

[Razor Blade]

Thanks for those tips

Ive been working at this for some time, here and there however.

Ive had sessions where Ive liked what ive done but for the most part, it isnt great, I know this.

Im not going to blame the gear. But I do wonder this. Everything I seem to record lacks..I dont know how to decribe it.. "quan' of, that 'life' that seems to rob it, almost as if its just two dimentional and weak.

Im using a 9652 RME sound card, which I have been told could be a very weak link and rob the depth of this and the punch of the sound, and life. I also wonder if there isnt something to this 'tape' thing I keep reading about...and secondly, maybe RADAR.

I know what sounds good, but I just cant get the 'juice' out of anything I record, and thats the best way I can decribe it. Its just missing something here and I'm not certain its only me.

Any ideas?

[FossilTooth]

I hear you. I've been frustrated in the past as well and have beat myself up to no end.

Don't worry. If you keep at it, keep high standards, keep listening closely and critically things will click more and more each day.

I mean, the RME's aren't "world-class" or anything, but, they're fine. I would look elsewhere, and it's probably not at gear.

I remember the first time I freelanced at a "great" studio. Damn, did things came together quicker than ever before. I'd say at least 40% of that was the room, and at least 40% was working with greater talents who could afford it. The other 10%-20% might have been gear, and hopefully my (still) maturing skills and confidence.

Oh yeah, great monitoring helps too. very, very key. Good luck!

[Razor Blade]

I do know I'm a weak link in the chain. But lets talk about the room for a moment.


If I"m close miking, say within 12 inches or closer, using both the sm57 and the royer, which is the usual setup I use, how important is the room? Ive been trying to record two amps. A matchless clubman with a strat for a chimey sound, and the DC30 for more grit. The very first time I attempted this, the chime wasnt there, it was weak and almost distorted even though the amp wasnt. The DC30 however came in very nicely. I havnt been able to reproduce that since. Everything now just sounds anemic. Im using nuendo, and maybe I've just tried to get too high a signal to noise ratio, because I try to come in as loud as I can and since Im using 32 bit in nuendo, I dont have any clipping . I then tried to record at lower levels, and since, anemic. I seem to get some kind of distortion also, but nothing is clipping anywhere. My chain was the 57/122 mics, to the Great River. No impedance or loading switched on. Into a the TL audio M3 Tube traker into Distressors (and Ive tried the trakkers too) into crane song HEDD (which is set to 24 bit AD process), into nuendo. Ive tried different settings on the distressors (1176 settings) with 2/1 compression. and then later on, slowed up the attack considerably on the distressors to about 6 releast 7, but everything that shows up in nuendo looks like its hard the 'shite' compressed out of it. Thats when I reduced the imput fader in nuendo thinking maybe I was coming in too hot with the signals of the imput for nuendo and peaking off the transients in the wav recorded by nuendo. Blah...frustrated.

I don't seem to have as much trouble recording acoustic with the Rode Classic II btw, but eletrics just don't have that punch

[mockman]

Hey Razor Blade

I agree... that's some pretty damn nice gear. It should sound great! I can't quite understand what you think you might be missing with that combination of kit. My gut instinct is that if the song and parts are good, source sounds are good... basic good recorded sounds should be a no brainer. At the risk of offending you... Is everything wired up ok? What kind of space are you recording in? If you post up some tracks somewhere with a description of what you don't like about them... it would be easier to comment in a constructive way. What style of music are you after?

Ahh a new post arrived while I was typing.... (slowly typing)

12 inches or closer.... yes, the room can still be a factor, but I doubt that is your main problem. It sounds to me like you may have a signal path problem or a computer problem. That gear you have should sound clear as clear can be, but you are describing a lack of punch and clarity? Something isn't right. Are you over compressing it perhaps? Might I suggest simplification? Get a guitar sound, put the 57 right on the grill pointed at a speaker... send that straight to the RME (It has preamps?). How does that sound? Don't worry about maxing the signal in a digital chain. Record/Sample at 44.1K/24bit minimum. It should be ok to start. 88.2K or 96K if you can afford it! But that won't be your trouble. That quality of gear... well, it should just kick some pretty major ass. If it's the kickin the correct ass you are after... that's another question.

Do your vocals record ok?

Good luck

[Razor Blade]

Mockman

The RME audio card is something that sits within the computer. It does not have preamps. Its the interface between the computer and the gear. Its called an RME 9652.

The converters are both RME 8i/o or a HEDD Crane song. Ive tried to remove things from the signal chain.

I'm recording rock/pop ish music. Things similar to tom petty or John Cougar. Trying to get a chime with some drive. Punchy and clear.

I do notice one thing. When I try to record at 88.2 on the HEDD, although I can see the signal light up in nuendo, I get NO sound. As soon as I switch back to 44.1, I can monitor again. That, I have yet to figure out.

So I record at 32 bit floating 44.1. Ive heard things recorded in circumstances of 20 percent of teh caliber of gear I have, and it kicks my ass.



The room, isnt great. ITs a smallish bed room with no room treatment. Four painted walls, and a hardwood type floor. The ceiling is lower than standard, not quite 8 feet. The room is about 14 x 10. One small window in the corner.

Two pics, there are more amps in here now sitting behind the drum kit. Roland TD20.

http://members.shaw.ca/razorm/P8190025.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/razorm/P8190030.jpg






Here is a sample of what I recorded first attempt. Two amps, two different guitars, same mics on both amps, the sm57 and royer 122. Sigh..humiliating. I've done better than this, but this snippet gives one some idea of the worst case scenario as I see it. THere are four tracks in total here, two mics for each amp for 2 tracks per guitar, x 2 amps =total four tracks. No eq. Compression was distressors set at attack 3, release 4. Ratio 2/1



http://members.shaw.ca/razorm/Sample%201.mp3

[smtb987]

How loud are the amps when you are recording?

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by Razor Blade

(...)how important is the room?

I think one of the key elements (among others) will be learning to "work your room".
The more you record in a room, the better you get to know it.
There's a certain combination of amp volume, position, room liveness, mic type and micing distance that will give you a very 3-D sonic picture of the amp: an elusive mixture of direct speaker sound, cabinet thrumm, and room ambience. Even with a mono track, you'll swear the amp is standing right in front of you, and you'll even be able to tell how far.
It's different for every room and it'll take some time to find, but believe me: you'll know when you've hit it!
The Royers being figure-8, they let you get pretty close to the amp and still pick up some ambience.
I like a room that's pretty dry, but still quite big, at least drumbooth size. And having the amp away from the floor, like on a blanket-covered table, also helps.
Good luck on your "quest for tone". Getting there is half the fun.

[andychamp]

I just re-read your 3rd post and listened to the sample in the 4th.
Besides the room issue, I think you may have too much stuff in your signal chain and maybe a bit of a mess in your gain structure.
Could also be the distressor is changing the direct sound/ambience ratio of an low-volume amp in an already very live room.
Try going just 122 -> great river -> converter. And don't be shy on the volume (neighbours permitting). You gotta move some air to hear it

[alcohol]

I got a Royer 121. I find that if the amp is loud, 12" is too close, try 18". Also, you need to tilt the Royer back a bit. The other thing is I think the Royer is too dark for a guitar amp from the front, so I turn the Royer's back to the cab. Also, I don't use any compression or EQ. I go straight from the Royer to a Great River pre. I'm really pleased at the guitar tone I get. I use a RE-20 about 10' away for a room mic.

I got a small room with a 7' ceiling and lots of bookcases.

You can hear a couple of examples on these rough mixes here:

http://moxyfever.com/music.php

[Razor Blade]

I had the DC30 Cranked

The clubman (chimy part) was not that loud...

but Im defeinatly close in with both mics...8 or 9 inches

[mockman]

Hey Razor Blade... sorry to take so long. Work. It takes time away from Rawk.

First off, lemme say "Nice room!" That looks like a great space to play in.

I listened to the track and here are my impressions, for what it's worth...
I take back what I said about the room... it is affecting quite a lot. It's a pretty bright space. I have to say, I kind of enjoyed your guitar sounds, but I understand why you might not. (I like strange/different/un-typical guitar sounds/tones) The sound is very dark and round... lots of room. I have never used the Royer... but if it's a figure 8 and you are a foot away... that might be your trouble... as well as too much compression. It will give you a lot of room tone. I would try the 57 tight in on the grill. I would also make sure to get the amp off the floor (I think you have) and tilt it back some. It will help to avoid obvious 1st reflections into the mic. The figure 8 Royer is going to add tons of room into the sound and it will take you a while to find a blend/spot you like... so... I would avoid that to start and just get a bright punchy tone with the guitar, amp, 57, pre, converters. Once you get something that is close, or even too much, of what you are after... then you might try to make it bigger and tastier with the Royer. Careful with the comp... that is going to add room tone like crazy in your space. You might consider building a dead-ish sounding corner to play around with the amp. I imagine that vocals might sound a little on the boxy side in this space as well?

Don't get bummed by it... as someone mentioned, finding the tones is a blast... and you have great tools to start with.

Good luck!

[alcohol]

The Royer is going to give you the best representation of how your amp sounds in your room. That's my experience, and I put it a foot to 18" away from the amp. I much prefer the sound of the Royer to the 57 and I've tried many different configurations including the instructions in recorderman's amp recording tutorial

However, the Royer is brighter when the back of the mic is faced toward the source. The manual indicates that turning the Royer around for for a brighter response is appropriate technique.

[mockman]

O yeah... Another thing to pay attention to is the phase effects you will have when using multiple microphones. You need to ensure that these effects are helping you and not hurting you. The 'traditional' way to do that is have your second engineer move the microphones around while you listen in the control room... :-) Probably not an option in this scenario. You'll have to just do it the hard way. Again, I recommend starting with just one microphone. The 57 is simplest.

I don't doubt for a second that the Royer will give great results, but I still maintain that starting with the 57 in tight on the grill and working from there will get Razor Blade where he wants to go in due course. Switch to (or add) the Royer after you are ready to appreciate the more sophisticated flavors it will deliver. Figure 8 miking in a bright room is going to take more effort to sound good. And "good" in the sort of pop music that Razor Blade describes must be subjugated to the song's arrangements and the particularly the vocal. In my opinion anyway.

Hope it helps! I believe having fun is the most important part!

[Audio Hombre]

Originally Posted by Razor Blade

Im using a 9652 RME sound card, which I have been told could be a very weak link and rob the depth of this and the punch of the sound, and life.

There's nothing wrong with your conversion. That RME card is fine.

[kyle barton]

razor,
i listened to your recording and it sounds a lot like my first attempts using my 121 in my way-less-than-idea-and-totally-untreated-spare-bedroom / tracking room. i soon realized that my 121 was picking up bunches of room "tone" even while i was close-micing. so i built a little gobo behind/around the mic to keep as much of the room reflections out, and was immediately happier with the results.

good luck

[Razor Blade]

Second attempt, close 57 up to the grill on slight angle, 122 royer back about 18 inches (not reversed) or phased. Amp off the floor, and no thing behind the royer to keep the room out, but I think that would be a real good idea, I'm going to try that. No compression. Dc 30 only. Bass & drums added (and different lick/melody)


Forgive the drumming, or anything else , I'm pretending to be a guitarist at best.



Thoughts?



http://members.shaw.ca/razorm/sample2.mp3

[andychamp]

Good one!
The tone you recorded definitely gained definition and depth. It's most noticeable in the intro, with the single guitar.
I can't tell about phase/polarity problems on those laptop speakers, but here's a couple of hints:
- when using two mics on the same source, the far mic should be at least 3 times further away from the source than the close mic. Dunno who wrote that "law", but it really seems to work.
- to phase-align 2 mics without an assistant: first get a synth/softsynth that can generate some pink or white noise and feed it to the amp. You could also daisy-chain several distortion pedals that are fully cranked, just get some wide-band hiss going.
Now, supposing you've already found the sweet spot for your 1st mic, place the 2nd mic roughly where you'll be wanting it.
Then dial up your preamps' gains, so that they both put out the same level on the meters.
Flip the polarity switch for mic number 2.
Feed both mics to some headphones, panned to center/mono, and go out to the amp and mics.
Now move the 2nd mic around until both mics cancel each other out in the phones. (You'll never get 100% cancellation, but try to get as close as possible. The frequency remaining in the phones now will be under-represented later, so experiment a bit.)
Go back to the preamps, flip the phase back to normal. Your two mics are now as much in phase as possible and won't give you a headache come mixing time.

The next big step would be to envision the sonic space you want that guitar (or any other instrument) to occupy as you write and arrange the song, and then record it that way to start with.

Happy hunting!

[mockman]

Hey Razor Blade... that new guitar tone is working. It sounds usable to me. I like it too. I trust you are feeling better about the whole thing?

Well said andychamp. I forgot about that out of phase in the headphones trick. Good call!

Cheers!

[alcohol]

Yes,

that tone is much better

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by mockman

Well said andychamp. I forgot about that out of phase in the headphones trick. Good call!

Thanks!
And I learned all that here on GS!!!
From Slipperman or M.Wagener, IIRC

[mockman]

Originally Posted by andychamp

From Slipperman

Funny you mention Slipperman. I just discovered this and I am about a quarter way through it:

http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

It's a great read if you can stand the cursin'! Personally, he cracks me up, or to quote "LMFBO!" And I have learned all sorts of odd little nuggets, which makes me very happy. Razor Blade, you should check it out.

[1monkey1]

a couple of things that have worked for me:
1. putting on heavier strings
2. pulling the pickup volumes down off 10 to cut down static/breakage.
3. if you like the pickups at 10, lower the amp. even great amps can take on an AM radio static thing.
4. tweak the eq, i don't track with compression.
5. play your guitar harder, produce more tone with your hands. ever see footage of chuck berry or jimi hendrix playing? they're workin' hard.

steven walcott
www.engine-studios.com

[Razor Blade]

Thanks all

This has been educational

I'm not sure about this pink noise thing. I do have a roland rd 700 keyboard? Can I get pink noise out of that? Not sure what pink noise is...Have to google that

Ill try those tricks out and see what happens.

Thanks again.

out of the all the compressors I've mentioned, which of them would you suggest I use if at all 'after' I get those guitars to 'tape/hard drive'.

How many here go to tape and what is your experiences with that versus digital ? Is there anything here besides the room and micing techniques that might offer a big leg up in the signal chain or sound caliber? I've been considering getting rid of some gear in favor of other things to 'tweak' or improve the overall caliber of the amount of gear I have. I"m not as slutty as some of you here, so I'm trying to work with what I have and learn with what I have to maximize my skills , but in that, Id like to consider revamping my gear to be as selective and make the most use of it all.

Ive got 1 stc-8
vt 737
2 trakkers
1 drawmer 1969
1 greeat river mp2nv
2 distressors with brit mods
CS Head
RME 8 i/o
Tube tracker M3 8 channel mixer http://mixonline.com/products/review...o_tubetracker/
pod xt, pod pro, pod bass pro
TC helicon voice works
Event 20/20 monitors
Re'an 2 x 48 bay patchbays which is where I connect all gear (and I was thinking maybe I would be better to run all my compressors as inserts off the Tl audio M3 tube tracker mixer).

I don't have live drums, so its either the TD20 Roland, or a combination of that with reason 'drums' or DFHS midi.


I'm starting to think that for me, if I don't also get a great bass and drum track down somewhere along the way, I'm never going to like what I hear no matter how great the guitars are. And while I'm a guitarist, I've always paid alot of attention to the guitars by default, but I was listening to a david bowie album the other day (reality ~ new killer star), and it occured to me, the bass and drum tracks gave me that foundation required to work over top with the guitars, and without that being rock solid, you're in trouble. Just a beginners perspective.

I have to say, this is alot more than I bargained for when I started out buying this gear, and I have a whole new level of respect for engineers and producers/etc because there is sooo much to learn and know. I've bought a few books (id audio home recording course), mastering audio by bob katz, yamaha's sound reinforment handbook, the art of mixing, & the mixing engineers handbook.

As well, I have waves gold and musicians bundle, and UAD audio plugins, along with reason, and melodyne, and well...whew..there is sooooo much to learn and read, that Im paralyzed by analysis at this point, don't know where to start.

I've seriously considered going to Michael Wagners 9 day course. I just have to plan ahead for the time and money for it. I spent alot of my dad's inheritance for this gear, because in younger years when I didnt have the money, I promised myself someday if I could, I would have my own little studio where I could make my own songs. I've yet to finish any one song in the 5 or 6 years Ive had this gear now, and I'm beginning to think that maybe I should have investigated first what I really would have been best to purchase so that I had what I needed most. Now I'm just not sure, so I'm disappointed I might have spent this money less than wise. I've promised myself that I would really try to see if I can just make something I can be proud of, just even one song, to justify spending this inheritance this way, and there are moments I think "oh lord, what have I done'...

So that's where my head is at and why I bought this gear for such a beginner.

Hopefully I can make the most of what I have. I will tell you one thing that Ive wished I had. Bigger LCD monitors. I have two 17 inch side by side LCD samsung displays with a matrox G550 video card. I woudlnt mind having one of those BIG monitors and a small one on the side , since I really like the concept of not having to work so hard to see the images with nuendo 3.0 and cubase sx 4.0.

I also tried btw, genelecs 8040s?, but I actually preferred the event 20 20 's more , since I was use to them. Shame on me, I know, but it seems to me, my mixing enviroment is not treated at all, so, having great monitors in a room where I'm getting all kinds of reflections was counterproductive anyway. And not to mention, yet again, more money spent that I wasnt sure was wise or not.


Bottom line is, I just want to learn, but also be sure I've got the right or best choice of the gear for the job, maybe moving out a few pieces in favor of others, that might serve the overall global picture better. ahhh..if only I was well off enough to have a real nice studio with a seperate mixing room from the tracking room. (makes me think of getting one of those whisper rooms, but the ceilings arnt high enough
anyway).

I'm always in fear that I'm , forgive the expression , but, 'pissing into the wind' missing out on something I dont even know that I 'need' to have, making the rest of the gear pointless to have in the first place, since I've failed to have a 'must have' piece or situation or room, acoustics, etc.

This whole recording thing is quite the learning curve.

I take my hat off to all you , this isnt so easy, but its rewarding I'm sure if you get something you're really proud of and sounds great.

[mockman]

Hey Razor Blade... my last 2 cents on this, particularly as relates to something I have picked up in your last post. Something that I see a lot of in forums and quite frankly I do it myself all the time. And to be clear... this is my opinion, for what it is worth. (2 cents by my count)

The "recording arts" are about making music, not gear. Buuuttt.... When you are in a forum called "gearslutz.com"... well... Ha! HA! Priorities might seem a little skewed in the wrong direction.

Originally Posted by Razor Blade

... I've been considering getting rid of some gear in favor of other things to 'tweak' or improve the overall caliber of the amount of gear I have. I"m not as slutty as some of you here, so I'm trying to work with what I have and learn with what I have to maximize my skills , but in that, Id like to consider revamping my gear to be as selective and make the most use of it all. ....

I am also totally guilty of this. My advice to myself is to get off the gear acquisition treadmill and RECORD SOME MUSIC! I did this 'recording' thing professionally for 15 years with some modest successes and brilliant failures so I know how to do it and how not to do it. (Or I have acquired an opinion anyway... ) I find now that it is strictly a hobby for me, it's very easy to get distracted by the pleasures and promises of the gear... this forum should be called gearslutz - 'anonymous' - .com. It should be a 12 step support group to get grown women and men off of the techno-treadmill and back to making music and records.

So... forget about buying and selling gear and instead write songs and record them. That's what I am trying to do myself. You need some experience under your belt to have an opinion of all this great gear. You can make the best record you ever imagined with what you have today (You have great gear mate!)... if the MUSIC is there. It's about music. That's what Bruce Sweidien always says and he is bona fide card carrying gear slut who also happens to be very successful at recording music. I think he is right. I read his book and lots of his posts in various forums and he reminded me of that... "Music first!" I think he is right.

http://www.amazon.ca/Bruce-Swedien-M...6478316&sr=8-1

Cheers!