The Price of Gear!

[FossilTooth]

I think I might have made a Gearslutz Faux-Pas. I may have posted a vaguely negative reply relating to price of a piece of second hand gear in for sale on GS.

A FS listing is no place to bring up a general dialogue about 'gear prices these days'.... but this area is! The post that inspired this thread was for an offbeat, historically overlooked, pretty cool piece of gear (It was priced far above market value. Seller and gear names withheld for their protection.)

Here's my original observation:

"I was reading through Mix last month, and I saw that someone was making a new re-issue of a Gates sta-level for about $2k.

I thought to myself, isn't part of the reason you buy something like a Gates or an Altec because it's badass AND cheap?

....Then I looked up some vintage Altec pre's and comps on ebay. ...Then I saw this post. Damn. This stuff is getting out of hand.

I'm only 25, and I remember when you would see a Silverface Twin Reverb priced at $500, and it would sit around in a shop for months. $500. It just wouldn't move.

Remember when a 60s Fender Jaguar was like $650? I do. Did I mention that I'm only 25?

All the Top-Notch Mainstream Vintage gear gets to expensive even for the hobbyist Lawyers and Businessmen... so they drive up the price of our super-vibey "B-List" gear.

Those animals!"

Discuss.

555-faw-faw-faw-faw.

[raal]

the trick is to get the 'vintage' stuff before it gets labeled as such. some stuff is a result of passing tendencies and the price doesn't hold. some stuff just keeps going up and up to unrealistic levels, becoming more of a collectors' piece. (ie fairchild, '69 les paul).

the same applies to paintings, cars, etc.

but the cool part of 'vintage' audio is you can actually use it while it appreciates. in the case of something like a sta level, one has to decide if the piece is worth the current price because it probably won't be going up anytime soon. will a guy that bought his beloved sta-level for $300 sell it now? how about the guys that bought their pultecs for $350? how about the guy that bought his house for $150K and it's worth $1million now? but for audio gear, GS is a good place to get a buzz going that's for sure.

[FossilTooth]

Agreed.

But when I see someone trying to move one for $3500, my warning lights go off!

[raal]

warning light to me usually means don't buy it. if some guy can sell it for $3500 and then buy another one for less, i say all the power to him, but that doesn't mean you have to buy it at $3500.

a very smart man called Allen Sides has bought some very nice gear at very low prices, by waiting for the right time or circumstances to come along. i would call him a very smart GS.

[thedommer]

so whats the buzz now then? I want to buy that. I missed the gefell boat. freakin things are way overpriced now.

any suggestions as to whats next?

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by FossilTooth

"I was reading through Mix last month, and I saw that someone was making a new re-issue of a Gates sta-level for about $2k.

I thought to myself, isn't part of the reason you buy something like a Gates or an Altec because it's badass AND cheap?

The tough part is finding the damned things. The Gates comps are very cool, but there aren't oodles of them around, and those who have them are reluctant to give them up. But still, I do miss the days when the B-list stuff was affordable, and those of us struggling artists "in the know" could still pick up cool toys AND buy groceries. The funny thing is to see the C-list stuff going for big money now - the stuff you never would have wanted in the first place.

[Gravity]

Also being 25 and owning a couple of nics pieces of kit, I can second this. I'm lucky to have a friend who can get the cards and componants from vintage gear relatively cheap, then rack them and sell them to his friends at small profit (A labour of love he called it, very noble I think...) Which is how I got my API's and working on getting an SSL G series comp. (I'm also trying to see if he'll sell me some of his Neve stuff...I think my chances are slimmer there) But for those less fortunate, it's getting insane. I used ot post over at the Plexi Palace BB when I was building tube amps and we had the same conversations over there. 5 years ago you could pickup a silverface champ for $200 at aq pawn shop... Now they're up over $500-$600 on the flea-bay... These are the same SF amps that everyone said had horrible tone and no one would touch...

Heck I picked up my Silverface TR for $700 in pristine condition and sold it a year later for $900.

It's getting (gotten?) crazy but there are some deals to be found still. It's sad when you see a beautiful piece like a 60's Goldtop or a '59 Burst go for tens of thousands to some rich exec/lawyer/doc/etc... that plans to put it in a glass case and show it off to thier friends. Those instruments are valuable in large part because of how they sound and play. They were built to make music! At least (as an above poster mentioned) the expensive audio gear gets used!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by thedommer

I missed the gefell boat. freakin things are way overpriced now.

any suggestions as to whats next?

??? What? I think they're a bargain compared to equally vintage neumans or akg's.

[Joel_Thomas]

Originally Posted by FossilTooth

I'm only 25, and I remember when you would see a Silverface Twin Reverb priced at $500, and it would sit around in a shop for months. $500. It just wouldn't move.

Remember when a 60s Fender Jaguar was like $650? I do. Did I mention that I'm only 25?

I'm only 32 and I know a guy who bought 3 blackface pre CBS Fender Super Reverbs for no more than $350.00 a piece back in 1987. In 1987 you really couldn't give them away. I got my first Strat in 1987 and people where asking me "...why did you buy that? You had to have a Jackson, an Ibanez, etc back in the 80's. It wasn't till Kurt Cobain (...and some may argue Stevie Ray Vaughn, but let's face it - Kurt had more pull with the kids at the time) that Fender's started being viewed as "desirable". I remember my guitar teacher by a Fender Jag for the price you mention arount the late 80's/early 90's. I do remember two mint Fender Mustangs residing at a pawnshop here in town for a better part of my public education (...well, pretty much all of my Junior high/high school career). The shop wanted $650.00 for the pair - both of them. Fast forward past 1992 or so and the value shot up thanks to folks like Kurt Cobain and John Fruciante. For the longest time the old gear wasn't special. You could buy a new amp that was just as American made, almost as good, for just a bit more. Now, you are not dealing with "equal" value in used gear - especially guitar gear. The amp is no longer "American" (meaning actually manufactured here - not just contracted out to be built by a foreign manufacturer by an American owned company). Profit is the focal point in most guitar gear - not the product. CNC machines have invaded guitar production and while it has improved consistency it has eliminated some of the mystique. No longer do have the case of having 5 strats all built in 57 that are all different from one another. If you've played one model of 2007 strat - you've played them all. I think that as long as the market stays the way it is - the "good ol' days" will only gain in value. What competition is being offered by modern products? I do believe in Karma and a lot of these old products have loads of it built into them. People here in this country earned livings through them. Some of them used this to put their kids through school, pay the bills, and otherwise keep this country rolling. Today, a CEO collects a check and that's for the most part where the chain stops. I don't feel at all sorry for the situation because we all created it. I do think things will be changing in the next 5 years. Old faces will lose their luster if they continue to take for granted the history they built. You can only run a company on smoke and mirrors for so long. Unless they can put the substance back into the products and reduce the marketing - the vintage stuff will always be more valuable...

[C/G]

Originally Posted by FossilTooth

Agreed.

But when I see someone trying to move one for $3500, my warning lights go off!

A year ago you could find a nice one for $1600 US.

I say buy a new one out of spite and get a warranty with it.

[C/G]

Originally Posted by drBill

??? What? I think they're a bargain compared to equally vintage neumans or akg's.

Yes, but a few years ago the older used Gefells were even cheaper. Luckily I didn't miss that boat, I jumped on it and sailed around for a bit.

[lefthando]

Furthermore, because of the interknot, pawn shops now know the value of things. It's easy to jump on ebay and get an idea of how much something is worth.

[Stevil]

theres also a bunch of greedy bastards out there who act like everything old is "vintage" & should sell for top $. i watch overpriced gear get 0 bids & get re-listed over & over again because theyre demanding more than something is worth.

[Kestral]

While there's certain pieces of gear that have yet to be truly reproduced (ie. Fairchild 670), slowly but surely gear is being made that's just as good if not better than the originals.

For example, my AMS Neve 1073 beside a vintage recapped 1073, it's got the same sound (with the kind of minor variations even between two vintage 1073's) and defintely the mojo.

I've heard lots of great things about the Purple 1176's (I'd be curious to hear how it stacks up against my silverface blue badge).

In terms of guitars, Fender has been making high quality reissues for a the last couple of years. I have a friend that has two 1950's Strats and a few 1960's Strats, and put against the American vintage reissues, I actually preferred the reissues because the frets were all nice, held their tuning solidly. The build quality and quality control is just stellar for brand new American made Fender guitars. I'd put my 1952 Telecaster USA reissue (I got my local guitar store to bring in 4 of them from the various stores and I picked the best one of the bunch) against the real deal in terms of overall build quality and tone anytime, anywhere.

Gibson imo has been making shit guitars since the 60's and even up until last year but I just played some 2007 reissues (Les Paul and SG) and I was impressed. Perhaps they're following Fender's lead? I find myself in the market for a brand new Gibson at this point and was thinking I'd have to go vintage but seeing the build quality this year for Gibson guitars, I'm leaning towards a 61 reissue SG or Standard SG.

imo this is a golden age for people who want to buy new guitars.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by lefthando

Furthermore, because of the interknot, pawn shops now know the value of things. It's easy to jump on ebay and get an idea of how much something is worth.

They actually had accurate access to the value of vintage gear before the internet.

Except for a few exceptions, pawnshop finds dried up years ago. Now it seems that they add thirty percent to "street" on just about anything.

[FossilTooth]

Originally Posted by C/G

A year ago you could find a nice one for $1600 US.

I say buy a new one out of spite and get a warranty with it.

Well, you still can find them for that price. There's another GS-er who's selling one for around $1500. Considering the workmanship and build quality that went into it, it's not a bad price at all.... but I'm just remembering friends who are studio owners picking them up for way less. WAAAAY less. I guess those days are over though. (Sta-Level)

Good discussion people.

It's true, the budget conscious among us should always be on the lookout for those other under-utilized pieces of gear, that will eventually collect in value. Instead many of us gripe about not being able to afford the obvious stuff, and do shootouts of cheesy low-dollar new gear.

Everybody knows what happened to Quad Eight and Helios (in the US).

Unfortunately, whenever a GS'er finds such a piece they'll just gab about it here and drive the price up for the rest of us!

That said, there is some great relatively low-dollar new gear out there. Sputnik, AT4047, 4050, 4060, FatHead, ATM25, i5, m201.... wait, I've said too much!

[nandoanalog]

Well... I have a Tascam 38 tape machine with no more than 40 hours on its heads that I dont use anymore. Anybody wants to buy it for 10.000$ ? It`s almost vintage! After it gets vintage, it will be worthy 25.000$ !!

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by thedommer

so whats the buzz now then? I want to buy that. I missed the gefell boat. freakin things are way overpriced now.

any suggestions as to whats next?

anything pre-ROHS

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by raal

a very smart man called Allen Sides has bought some very nice gear at very low prices, by waiting for the right time or circumstances to come along. i would call him a very smart GS.

The only difference is he has the funds to buy in bulk. Like when you go to a studio auction if you want a great deal you have to buy the whole lot at a low price than trying to bid on pieces individually.

Or if some audio/video/radio studio is going out of business if you buy their changeover lot as a bulk(make a low and reasonable offer) you are sure to be guaranteed some gems(ive done this) and the gear you don't want you can sell at regular prices(which is what you see on ebay these days).

Basically it takes money to make money. For those that don't have you'll have to do it the hardway...piece by piece which means you are at the whims of whatever the seller thinks he can get.

[FossilTooth]

I guess we should all remember that now is a VERY GOOD time to buy Tape Machines and midlevel consoles.

Have you seen how cheap you can get a decent mid-level board? A DDA DMR12 is like $3K. You can find a Neotek Series one through three for about the same price as 4 of it's channel strips rackmounted.

If I had some more room I'd have a cool low cost board right now and I'd say F* summing boxes.

Unfortunately, If you want automation, it'll probably cost three times more than the console!

Neve VR's priced at $60-70k just seem to sit around for a while as well. Hell, most non-musician's cars cost more than that!

So, it's not all bad.

[ddageek]

Just because someone is asking for certain price dosen't mean he is going to get it!
I have seen lots of gear just sit their because of someones informed guess at what "market price" is!

[tomdarude]

I think it´s time to buy the Jackson´s, Charvel´s, Ibanez JEM´s for cheap now and wait for the 80´s hair-metal revival
all this 19" rocktron/bradshaw/caswell stuff etc.




errhhh wait, these sound like ass....fuuck

[Kestral]

Originally Posted by tomdarude

I think it´s time to buy the Jackson´s, Charvel´s, Ibanez JEM´s for cheap now and wait for the 80´s hair-metal revival
all this 19" rocktron/bradshaw/caswell stuff etc.

errhhh wait, these sound like ass....fuuck

Don't laugh man, have you seen what those Ibanez Universe and JEMs are going for now? They've come back up quite a bit in price..

[FossilTooth]

Hey man, this neo-shoegaze movement in Brooklyn just might bring back ADATs!



(especially for the cats who are into the more obscure stuff)

Yikes.

[thenoodle]

Gearslutz types...especially kids of the 21st century software era...are most enamoured by stuff that has motors and switches and knobs. Because of this, I'm convinced that the absolute through-the-roof pricing 10-15 years from now is gonna be for old Adat machines. They seem to average about $50 right now on Ebay. Time to stock up and let time do it's magic thing. Don't forget to also buy a few cases of vhs tape to lock away till then.

The little kids running around now who are 3-4 years old are going to look at an adat machine and ancient vhs tape 15 years from now and absolutely drool (like they do now at 3 years old). 16 bit digital is the defining sound of the 80's-90's...at least that's what THEY'LL think. And of COURSE, the best music ever made was from the 80's-90's. That's what THEY'LL think.

Gearslutz topics of the year 2022...Gotta have that vintage 16 bit sound....why do old adat machines sound so much better than 72bit 768k recordings...can I remove those fantastic Alesis adat converters and somehow install them in my old ssl....what's a better archive media for my work..1billion gb ram fluxicator cards or vhs tapes.

[tomdarude]

yeah give us a nice Tape-Emulator !!!! (ADAT-tape that is...)

Cranesong? Portico? EL?

[biggator6]

I think it´s time to buy the Jackson´s, Charvel´s, Ibanez JEM´s for cheap now and wait for the 80´s hair-metal revival
all this 19" rocktron/bradshaw/caswell stuff etc.

Gotta be joking - have you looked at the price of a pre-merger (San Dimas) Jackson? They're going for what they went for new or more (and I bought one in 1986 - it was expensive back then).

My Jackson is the ONE thing I've sold that I want back.. If anyone comes across a San Dimas Jackson, rounded strat-shape body, no binding, dot-inlays, painted like Pink Floyd The Wall (with the bug-thing coming out from behind the pickups)... let me know - it's mine and I want it back!!!

[Led]

I saw that Sta-level post and thought wow, I've finally reached the age where I think an asking price is totally f$#king rediculous and I remember when they were dirt cheap. Mind you, this is the only guy I've seen asking such a stupidly high price. BTW anyone wanna buy my EQH-2 for 10 K? I'll put a new tube in it......

[Gravity]

Ok I was trolling Craigslist today and I came upon the perfect example of insane gear prices...

http://toronto.***************/msg/298013921.html

$900 for a Traynor Bassmaster. Ok I know these things sound great, the poorman's marshall and all... But For serious. Even with the cab... I rememebr when you coudn't GIVE these things away. "Pete Who??" Now that my precious Traynor's have started to go up.. what's left? Is nothing sacred???

[raal]

Originally Posted by thenoodle

Gearslutz types...especially kids of the 21st century software era...are most enamoured by stuff that has motors and switches and knobs. Because of this, I'm convinced that the absolute through-the-roof pricing 10-15 years from now is gonna be for old Adat machines. They seem to average about $50 right now on Ebay. Time to stock up and let time do it's magic thing. Don't forget to also buy a few cases of vhs tape to lock away till then.

so i shouldn't throw the akai a.dams in the trash? haven't thrown 'em out because we did some decent records on those things and i payed something like $35K a piece!!! (12 tracks each)

have to say they're the best sounding 16bit things i've had though. so you think they'll be like fairchildren in about 30 years? they use tape, have motors and the remote has tons of switches!!!.... may even have a box of unused 8mm tpe... was going to throw 'em away or put 'em in my fish tank. maybe i should just dust them off.

traynor amps... the good old days.