25K to Build a studio from ground up

[Mr. Nice]

We are mainly doing R&B, Rap and recording a singer or maybe two at a time (usually only one), quite possibly a solo instrument here and there........what we do have:

Access Virus TI (keyboard 61) master controller
PowerMac G5+2 screens
Logic Pro 7
Vienna Symphony (we have a couple of movie things happening)
East West quantumleap thing
Komplete 4+Kore
Spectrasonics (all of em)

what we don't have is everything else: the size of the studio and the budget does not allow for a Mixer, so we are going to do this with Logic. I know everybody will give different opinions on Mics. PreAmps, Converters, Monitors, etc..... but let me tell you what I am thinking so this thread doesn't end up going all over the place....

Mics (heard that we should try to get 1 bad ass mic, and then have a small variety of not so bad ass mics. thinking of finding a U87 for bad ass? what about the other mics.)

PreAmps (thinking of a Great River MP-2NV?) hear u need a little bit of variety here also what else or even change the Great River?.....

Converters (Mytek 8X192 ADDA, or ROSETTA 800?) this is where i am not sure whether to go for the more channels with the stuff above or get a Lavry Blue 2 in and out? Do we need so many ins and outs for recording what we are doing? or can we get away with 2 in and out like a ROSETTA 200, MYTEK AD96 and DA96, Lavry, etc......

Monitors (K&H, M&K, Adams) we will probably need a sub, because of the type of music mentioned above, but it would be nice to stay away from one or maybe add one down the road.

no clue on effets....do not want the UAD cards, i'd rather use software, or go out and get some hardware.

please let me know what i am missing. big thing is i can't figure out how to monitor and also send a feed of the signal to the performer without a mixer????? I would just like to know that we have some good quality gear that can stay with us for a while. i'd rather do the quality over quantity thing at the very bgening and add stuff as we see fit.

thanks for your time . hope you didn't fall asleep

[George Necola]

big thing is i can't figure out how to monitor and also send a feed of the signal to the performer without a mixer?????

Cranesong Avocet + headphoneamp for the artist, makes it possible.

monitors are a matter of taste. buy one good and one poor monitoring system so you can switch between them.

preamps are a matter of taste. there are the classic work-horses and the "ultraspecialribbonmicaccleratedkryptonpowered"-stuff.

I dont know how many channels you need.. you have to answer this question. 16 channels is a minimum for me, but I record rockdrums and I am mostly rented in studios.


priority:
1. monitors/Controller (=>Focal, Adam whatever/ Cranesong Avocet)
1a.. Roomacoustics (buy rockwool.. build basstraps..lots of)
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x. find good musicians
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y. think about the gearbrands:D



normally if you buy a car, you ride it before buying, or you have at least a clue if you like the 5000ps sportswaggon or the fuel-friendly japanesecar.

25k is spent in a twinkle of an eye

cheers

[Mr. Nice]

thanks for the input. the room is being treated (that's not in my hands) and listening I will try to do, though time is def. not on my side so it'll be difficult.

Mics?
Pres?
Converters?
Monitors?

regarding the inputs and outputs? a couple of people (who i am not sure I totaly trust) told me that a minimum of 8ins and 8outs are needed plus a patchbay????? i tried to explain to them that we are not recording a band, but merely a singer or maybe a guitar track once in a blue moon.

[George Necola]

you dont need a patchbay.

some monitors work in some rooms better than in others (treatment, acoustic behavior.. blahblah).

regarding the inputs and outputs? a couple of people (who i am not sure I totaly trust) told me that a minimum of 8ins and 8outs are needed plus a patchbay????? i tried to explain to them that we are not recording a band, but merely a singer or maybe a guitar track once in a blue moon.

2 tracks are enough to start with. try to keep your system modular, so you can expand later. you dont need a patchbay.

you can go PREAMP (with DI for guitar maybe)=>compressor=>Convertor.

Mics?
Pres?
Converters?
Monitors?

Mics: whatever works for you and your clients. I cant comment here.. not my genre
pres: there are common and uncommon preamps people use.
converters: I like mytek, apogee, lynx .. I am working with RME in my homestudio due to the fact, that its enough there.
monitors: I was never a fan of any brand. I have my favourite ones. maybe talk to other hiphop guys. ADAM/FOCAL is state of the art monitoring depens if you like ribbon tweeter (ADAM..called ART) or not (Focal: berillium).

buy 2 MONITORS systems (Focal/ADAM..whatever and something ohter..like cheap JBL or something).



I would recommend, you buy 2 microphones to start with, 4 diffrent channels of preamps (buy everything in a set of 2! if you wanna record in stereo) 2 compressors (also a set..like 2 distressors) and start with 2 AD convertors expandable (so you can add more) and a cranesong avocet(you will thank me in a view years for this hint )

tony belmont (High Profile Audio | Pro Audio Equipment Sales & Consulting | 401-316-6423) is the moderator of the hiphop forum and sells gear. I think he is the guy talking to if you are in america.

Fletcher (www.mercenary.com), Nathan (atlasproaudio.com) also very top in selling their gear.

[Jim Williams]

The gear brokers arn't going to like to hear this, but it's true.

BUY USED!!!

That way your $25k will turn into $50k. Or more.

You can put the gear in your place or put someone elses kid through college, your choice.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Mr. Nice]

very very helpful thank you!

buying everything in a set of two sounds good? will it all be able to connect without a mixer? if i only have two A/D ins and two D/A outs without me or somebody else going and disconnect and reconneting stuff behind the desk? got to look into what the advocate does?

if we go by this rule i am hoping some people can give me the following.....

2 mics (remember we are doing R&B mainly)
2 pres
Conveters (2 AD and DA of Lavry Blues maybe?)
Monitors

effects will mainly be done in the box for now, but i read and see that a should add a good compressor in the chain between the pres and ad converter. anything else.....

[tomdarude]

I´d only tell you again not to skimp on the monitoring/controller/routing/converters in the firstplace...!!!

something like an 16ch.AES/EBU I/O-PCI card like the RME or Lynx with a Lynx Aurora16 & a DangerousMonitorST will give you hi-end conversion + perfekt monitoring/talk-back/cue options you´ll need all the time.

another idea would be the same with an Aurora 8 and the Avocet (has a very good D/A for monitoring!), so you´d still have 6 Digital I/O´s and 8 analog.

......keep in mind something like 8 analog I/O´s will be used IN NO TIME if you start using outboard one day!!! so... be prepared.




Monitors: in that price-league my preference would def. be a pair Focal Twin6Be with a Focal Sub and may paired with some auratones/avantones

for that money, I´d also add at least 1 good hardware reverb that can take the main reverb duties like e.g. a Kurzweil KSP8 (there goes your first aes/ebu-I/O pair )

[Fletcher]

I would agree with Mr. Williams on this... definitely get everything used!!

You run a much better chance of getting what you need to get off the ground if you go used than if you went with new gear!! Wait on the new stuff until you get to the level where the stuff you want to add isn't available on the used market with great enough regularity for there to be a significant price differential from buying "new" [the "good stuff" holds its value very well!!].

Peace.

[Mr. Nice]

good stuff thanks.....

[mark714]

I'd agree that you should look on the used market whenever possible. However, since you seem very new to this whole thing I think you will benefit from sales consultation at one of the bigger dealers. Although their prices are higher than the used market, their years of experience can often guide you towards gear that sounds great that will retain some value. More importantly, they can guide you away from some gear that you won't want down the road ~ which could save you money long term.

A great relationship with a great dealer is a great thing to have. If you align yourself with someone like Fletcher/Mercenary or other trustworthy high end dealers you are less likely to make boneheaded gear decisions.

For starting out with 25k, I'd go this route :

Universal Audio LA-610 :1500
Great River MP2-NV : 2000
Great River EQ2-NV : 3000
Daking pre/eq (2) : 2750
Crane Song HEDD-192 :3200
Crane Song Trakker (2) : 4400
Shure SM-7 : 400
AT-4051 : 450
Soundelux U99 : 2100
Some version of a U47, be it Telefunken, Peluso, Korby, whatever : 1500-5000
Dynaudio BM-15A : 2500
some cheapo monitors of your choice : 10-400

I'm guessing on these prices. They may be close or a little off. Either way, this list will give you some great tools and some extra cash for cabling, etc...

[Mr. Nice]

after doing some more research and getting some trustworthy advice from somebody on this board it looks like the following will be my set up.

Mics
Wunder CM7-GT (m7 cap)
Soundelux E251C


Preamplifier
Vintech 273



Compressor
Tube Tech CL1B (2 of them)


Equalizer
Great River 2NV


Converters (might cut back a bit here originally I was gonna go with 2 channels of the Lavrys)
now i'm thinking either
mytek AD/96?
mytek DA/96?
Rosetta 200?


Monitors
Klien+Hummel 0 300


what do you all think about that advice?


one weird thing i am thinking about doing (probably not recommended) is to use our Access Virus TI as a soundcard (Access says it can be done) it as an SPDIF in and out. I'm thinking that let say I get the Lavrys or Apogee or whatever. Can I connect the converter digitally to the access. The keyboard itself also has a headphone out which we may be able to send out to the singer. am i nuts?

[mark714]

"one weird thing i am thinking about doing (probably not recommended) is to use our Access Virus TI as a soundcard (Access says it can be done) it as an SPDIF in and out."

Don't do that, even if it "works." That seems like putting a $25k custom interior on a Kia Spectra.

Your list looks good. If you go that route your gear won't be the limiting factor in getting great sounds, which will make your job easier. I think you could get more flexibility with some different choices but you'll be set with your list. Good luck, report back when you're up and running.

[Mr. Nice]

thanks for the input. "more flexibility" please do let me know. nothing has been bought as of yet, but we are def. close to spending somebody's hard earned money. Will a Lynx or RME digi card work in a Mac Pro? they're all pcie right?

is there something in that chain that needs changing, i know a lot of this stuff is a matter of sujective tastes. we will be recording R&B singers mainly mosotly women, maybe a guitar but who really knows about that and remember a track at a time.

i just need to be totally sure before i spend this money....

[George Necola]

that advice sounds, like Fletcher sent you a pm:D

dont forget the cranesong avocet man! you can get those used for about 2k$, depending on the revision.
you can use the Cranesong as your MAIN DA-convertor (it has a convertor built in) and just buy an AD.

now you need an interface-card to your computer.


cheers

[Mr. Nice]

cranesong avocet? not sure what this is yet.....and how to impliment it?

here's something else i was thinking about while my 6 month old keeps my wife and i from sleeping (it's freakin 4:50 in the am while i'm posting this)

ok.... so i've got 2ins and outs with the lavry or whatever. the only way for me to have outboard effects is to put them within the chain of mic>pre>comp>eq>logic? yes? no?

the effects will be lined up within input 1and2 going into my sequencer and the 2da ouputs will feed my monitors. but what if i wanted to add some of these effects to my final mix, not just the voice, or maybe to some soft synths? how can i get my final mix sounding warmer. is it feasible to send the final mix or other parts besides voice thru these effects and maybe even the preamp down the chain back into my cpu (first off is that even possible meaning going into a pre without a mic? the DI for example?) and second can this be done with only the 2ins and outs or am i starting to see why the outs are necessary.

just curious how all this is done w/o a mixer? oh yeah the avocet again? please understand that i won't be running this set-up. thank god. i just write music and play some keyboards, hopefully there will be someone qualified to take care of all this...i'm just curious. also anything bothering anybody about that last list? a different pre? mics etc? thus far the last couple of posters had no complaints......

[Jim Williams]

Consider the semi analog route. A used English console runs around 10 cents on the dollar, unless it's one of those "N" word models. I've seen folks get big ones for $1000 when they look hard for them. Next, consider storage/converters. An Alesis HD24XR is a great choice as it's only $1650 and includes 48 channels of conversion. Next, you need a PCI card. It's the RME 9652.

A Nuendo package used can be had for $1000, maybe less. A couple of good monitors runs around $500 used. A used Adcom power amp goes for about $200~300. A good mic like a 414 used is around $500. A few used comps and a couple of used 'verbs will run around $2k~$3k.

OK, so far we are around $8 to $11k. $15k on the high side. Plus you will have all the editing capabilities of those mousers plus the added benefit of mixing analog.

Or, you can buy lots of software and digital crap and watch your investment turn to mud after a couple of years when it's obsolete and worthless.

Any questions?

Jim Williams
Audio upgrades

[Mr. Nice]

i here what you're saying about the semi analogue stuff, but i can't even begin to start getting off track.

thus far, though it may not seem like it i h ave learned quite a bit from you guys. there hasn't been any decision made. i'v been checking out stores, ebay, craigslist and will probably do a bit of mixing and matching.

i think the one thing that is almost def. are the studio monitors (Klien&Hum 0300s) and possibly the Wunder mic. and the Tube Tech CL1B. going back and forth with the converters (lavry, mytek, apogee, lynx) and the PreAmp.

[johnmarkpainter]

First thing..you're getting a Subwoofer aren't you?

Your list looks fine. (as long as you get a good A/D Converter)
There isn't ANY reason to worry about it because it is all good stufff and you won't have a real opinion about it until you use it for a few years.

RE: Outboard gear
Once you have Audio in the computer, just keep it there.
At this point you shouldn't mess with running out and back in.
Have a nice recording chain and get your 'tone' on the way in.

Buy a nice set of plugins for tweaking.
I LOVE the UAD cards, some Nomad Factory and several URS plugins.
You don't need a ton of them. And you will figure out what you need along the way.

jmp

[Mr. Nice]

yeah i was thinking of going subless for now until more funds filtered in. maybe the 0100 with a sub? actually there is a pair of ATC T16s selling on ebay. any opinions on that model for my line of work. as you can see i am very easily ditracted, especially when it comes to buying this cool gear. so the list sounds good to you thus far....great!

[George Necola]

cranesong avocet monitorcontroller WITH BUILT IN DA.

you have 3 diffent sources to select from and outputs.. digital and analogs.

you can feed the cranesong with an AES signal (from a MOTU HD192 or RME whatever) and you get a highend DA conversion + volumeknob. you can switch between your monitors.. you can invert the phase and listen in mono to get all the cool delay stereo effects and panning issues...

sorry:D I am a bit addicted to this thing. you can hear, what you never heard before *sounds a bit like my favourite tv-spot )...

dont forget the outboardcompressors..

cheers

[Mr. Nice]

after more research and speaking to more people i am now also considering the:

A Designs MP-2A MIC PRE instead of the Vintech 273.

will it fit into my chain better?

[Mr. Nice]

will def. look into that avocet

mics:
Wunder CM7-GT (m7 cap)
Soundelux E251C

pre
A-Designs MP-2A (use to have the vintech 273 here)

compressor
Tube Tech CL1B (2 of em) freakin expensive man.....

Equalizer
Great River 2NV

converters
lavry blues, apogee, mytek, or lynx. i am leaning towwards the mytek because of the volume control knob (not sure here)

monitors
K&H 0300


howz this commin?

[Neve8128]

I've been I a similar situation before and learned that the best approach that works for me is to think of the future. If you plan to do this for the rest of your life, think of buying things that you will be using 10 years from now, gear that will hold value and yes, buy used whenever possible.

Converters: I would go apogee AD16X (used) Why" great clock and has enough input in case you expand in the future. You may only need two channels now, but you don't know if it will be enough 3 years from now. Think big. Think about expanding...(my opinion)

Monitors: NS10's and bryston 4B. Why? if your mix sounds good with these it will sound great anywhere else. It's a tried and proven setup. Have another pair just in case. Maybe a Genelec.

Mic: U87 works well with pretty much anything. AKG 414's are also very good and you should also have some sm 57's handy.

If you are doing hip hop/R&B think about getting an mpc4000 with adat expansion card.
Your groove will swing in a way that cannot be reproduced by any computer software.
If you want that phat low end sound, think about getting an analog desk. If you still have some money left go with a Trident 65 or 75 series with at least 24ch. If possible get a 32 ch.

If you think of the future and think of analog desk, having a converter with enough in/out may be your best best. That's why planning the future may save you some money and headache in the long run. Buying converters, selling and buying again may not be a wise decision in the long run as they are not like the old Neve gear that will hold value.

Treat your room and yes, think of outboard gear too. Some nice reverb boxes, pcm 42's and a couple of good compressors such as LA-3A (vintage) or 1176LN (vintage) gear like these will hold value over the years and will always sound good on pretty much everything.

I believe that $25,000 may be enough for what I suggested and you may even have some money left to get a couple of vintage keyboards. Maybe a fender rhodes and a wurly. Oh yeah, I forgot the mic-pre's. Avalon, Neve API are my favorites. Again, for R&B Hip Hop Neve may get you that phat sound that you may be looking for.

Just my .02c

Good luck!

[Mr. Nice]

how much is an analogue desk? what you mentioned sounds good, but is this going to be under the budget and where can i get this gear?

[egan]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Consider the semi analog route. A used English console runs around 10 cents on the dollar, unless it's one of those "N" word models. I've seen folks get big ones for $1000 when they look hard for them.

Any questions?

Jim Williams
Audio upgrades

Any models in particular? $1k just seems insanely cheap.

[Mr. Nice]

the idea of analog sounds cool, but i am most likely gonna stay this route for now....any more opinions on the mics, pres, monitors etc...on my list. thus far the reviews were pretty good?

[ribteen]

a few years ago i started with a cranesong spider for pres and A/D adat to an RME 9652 spidif to a mytek DAC96. eventually i wanted to use outboard so i got an Apogee DA16x. this was a great 8in 16out system, well 18 if you count the Mytek. ran flawless on a dual G4 1ghz running Nuendo 3. but the mytek volume control wasn't stepped and as this was my monitor level i felt it was crucial that this be dead accurate. so i sold the Mytek and got a coleman box and used the apogee for monitoring.
recently i upgraded to a mac pro and just got a motu 2408 pcie. I connected all the digital I/O and the system is bomber. running DP.
now all i need is Nuendo 4!!!!!
through all this the spider has been my DAW front end and 2buss back end. i cant say enough about all the great features crammed into the spider. i know its more ins than you need but 8 channels of great preamps 8 great A/D and a cool mixer with inserts to boot!!!
i also have a pair of trakkers that are great on almost everything, especially vocals.
and you can't go wrong with the great river EQ-2NV.
just thought i'd share my $.02.....good luck!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nice

will def. look into that avocet

Excellent choice.

Originally Posted by Mr. Nice

mics:?

Sony C800G and U87. Can cover alot of bases with these 2.

Originally Posted by Mr. Nice

pre
?

Neve 1073 or Neve 1081

Originally Posted by Mr. Nice

compressor
Tube Tech CL1B (2 of em) freakin expensive man.....

Add an 1176 type as well(Purple MC77,the real thing,UA whatever).

Originally Posted by Mr. Nice

Equalizer

Massive Passive EQ would be my first choice.

Originally Posted by Mr. Nice

converters
lavry blues, apogee, mytek, or lynx. i am leaning towwards the mytek because of the volume control knob (not sure here)

All good...flip a coin.

Originally Posted by Mr. Nice

monitors

Whatever you are considering listen to it. Also buy a least 2 different monitors.

Originally Posted by Mr. Nice

howz this commin?

I can ask the same.

[huarez]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nice

after doing some more research and getting some trustworthy advice from somebody on this board it looks like the following will be my set up.

Mics
Wunder CM7-GT (m7 cap)
Soundelux E251C


Preamplifier
Vintech 273



Compressor
Tube Tech CL1B (2 of them)


Equalizer
Great River 2NV


Converters (might cut back a bit here originally I was gonna go with 2 channels of the Lavrys)
now i'm thinking either
mytek AD/96?
mytek DA/96?
Rosetta 200?


Monitors
Klien+Hummel 0 300


what do you all think about that advice?


one weird thing i am thinking about doing (probably not recommended) is to use our Access Virus TI as a soundcard (Access says it can be done) it as an SPDIF in and out. I'm thinking that let say I get the Lavrys or Apogee or whatever. Can I connect the converter digitally to the access. The keyboard itself also has a headphone out which we may be able to send out to the singer. am i nuts?

When you go with O 300,I highly recommand to buy the O 800 sub too, when you want to listen with higher levels with the O 300, it´s a must. You can anable/ disable it with footswitch

[jindrich]

Mr Nice,

your list looks very nice, but I think you limit yourself in the I/O department too soon. Even if you think you'll be fine with 2 channels, you won't. The minute you start working, somebody will come along with a MPC or some synth or a beatbox, or bring someone to do some chorus lines, or a funky bass player will drop by..etc, etc.. You definetely need more INPUTS. Also you DEFINETELY do need more flexibility in the headphones-monitoring side of things too, that's VITAL. And you don't mention any computer interface either.

Well to cover ALL that, I'd scratch your converters in the list and add the following: an Apogee ensemble and a Midas Venice 160 mixer. See:

The apogee ensemble is PERFECT if you're working with logic. It's (finally, with the latest drivers) a great firewire interface that brings 4 transparent mic pres that hang out with neves without shyness, plus 8ch of very good A/D/A. It also gives you some monitoring facilites (for the road). Start with this piece, and if you EVER feel the need of better converters, either A/D or D/A, add them later through its spdif and adat ports.

Regarding the Midas Venice, it's a great small mixer with 8 mono and 4 stereo inputs (12 pres), 4st returns, 4 groups, 6 aux sends per channel and talkback. It's small -fits in a 19" rack- and the pres and eqs are quite usable when you run out of prime channels. Plug all the outputs (DA converters, keyboards, 2 tracks, CD player..etc) to this mixer and use it as THE monitoring centerpiece. With its 6 aux sends you can also create several independent complex headphone mixes at will (add a cheap behringer phone amp distributor).
Also, route 2 of the Midas busses to 2 of the ensemble inputs so you're always ready to track anything that goes thru it. The outboard pres can go directly to the ensemble (for a cleaner path) and from here sent simultaneously both to the Midas and to the computer, so latency -if any- can be completely avoided.

I think those 2 pieces are a great starting point. They run for $1,900 and $2,500 respectively. Remember you're getting a firewire interface, 4 great transparent and 12 utility pres (34 analog inputs in total), 8 A/D/A and all the monitoring facilities you'd need for $4,400.

To that add your 2 mics, a great 1073 Nevesque st pre (great river, aurora GTQ2, chandler...), either a CL1B or LA-2A, an 1176, an st EQ and a set of monitors, and you're still on budget.

Regarding the monitors, with that kind of music you DO need a Sub. Cheapest option (among ADAM, Focal and K&H) would be Focals solo6 with sub, $3,000 for the lot.


great luck with your project.