Pacifica/Vintech/Great River/Buzz Shootout

[WidgetNinja]

Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao

Hi Lynn. I think I heard your preamp shootout cd 3 times now (in my studio with some great monitoring and acoustics). Thanks for that.It was an experience to me. It showed me that, IMHO, preamps are being a bit overrated. Its pretty hard to tell the difference between an $800 to a $5000 preamp sometimes...

Well at 800/ channel I think most pre's are all "high-end". I don't think pre's are overrated though. Maybe in the respect that there might not be 4200 "more good", but what DOES matter is that sometimes a great pre is flat wrong for a particular source where another is just fine to great... those "When it works, there's nothing like it" tools.

Let's take the buzz in this test. A few of us noticed a weirdness in the mids. On this voice using the Peluso, it mattered to me. It could be something with the voice, the mic, or the pre, but they added up funny, hell it could have been a special impedence match thing combined with the voice. I pointed out that even the same anomoly could actually be great for bass, and I'll say the same is robably true for an acoustic guitar. It might also be something you'd never hear on a different voice.

Personally, I haven't found something that slays on my voice, but I have heard things that are really bad for it. People like the M49, but that thing makes my voice have the funkiest sound in the highs, because I have a very high, very focused, resonance that needs to be tamed, not accurately presented, and definitely not accentuated. But when people say it's warm, I'm like "Not on my voice".

In the "High End", maybe there's not so frequently a magic bullet as there is magically not sucking when others are not doing the job. For example, I really like my Germaniums on guitar, not just because they sound good in general, but because they make a '57 suck the least on my amps with my settings. 57's are so pinched and hurtful to me on my rig, and the Germs remove that.

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by otisgood

I be new here and the last thing I want to do on my first post is cause any problems.

Well, in this one post you managed to insult and alienate

1) Zaza
2) Women
3) All his clients and
4) Used car salesmen.

All in all, a good day's work. And not bad for a second post.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by otisgood

Hi yall,

Just me ranting about someone who should thing about changing their career and maybe start selling used cars instead.

Ot

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

Well, in this one post you managed to insult and alienate

1) Zaza
2) Women
3) All his clients and
4) Used car salesmen.
All in all, a good day's work. And not bad for a second post.

Lynn what do u mean with #3 ??

Hahahahahahaha!!! I think you have a great and very smart sense of humor!!

[Johnkenn]

Hey Lynn - what's your take on the pres in the Manley Slam...and the box in general?

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by Johnkenn

Hey Lynn - what's your take on the pres in the Manley Slam...and the box in general?

Oh, that's easy.

Look here.

http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showthread.php?t=2679

Has it really been five years since it came out? Wow.

And remember. Don't ever buy a Manley SLAM on ebay if it has my picture with it. http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showth...ht=manley+slam

[Tim Farrant]

Can we please keep the thread on topic, this is no place for bickering, do that in the parking lot. Thanks in advance.

tutt tutt tutt

Originally Posted by WidgetNinja

...Let's take the buzz in this test. A few of us noticed a weirdness in the mids. On this voice using the Peluso, it mattered to me. It could be something with the voice, the mic, or the pre, but they added up funny, hell it could have been a special impedence match thing combined with the voice....

Important point, I do believe the MA2.2 is very good at revealing what mic is attached to it, this was one of the design goals of the unit. Some other preamps are less inclined to work like this, and place their own sonic "stamp" on the sound. Given the Vintech is supposed to sound pretty much like a 1073, I would put this unit in this category.

Tim.

[WidgetNinja]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

Important point, I do believe the MA2.2 is very good at revealing what mic is attached to it, this was one of the design goals of the unit. Some other preamps are less inclined to work like this, and place their own sonic "stamp" on the sound. Given the Vintech is supposed to sound pretty much like a 1073, I would put this unit in this category.

Tim.

Tim,

The one thing that stood out in my mind is that the MA2.2 was the only transformerless pre of the bunch. I remember a long time ago a reviewer having an issue with I believe the then new Earthworks on a particular transformerless pre having issues that were particular to that combination.

It could be the Peluso doesn't generally like a transformerless input and something weird happens.

[Lindell]

Inappropriate language... tutt

[Mike Jasper]

Originally Posted by MadGuitrst

I got it right............like always

Sonofabitch, you did get it right. Completely.

I liked 2 the best, then 4. That means that RKrizman and I agree for the first time ever. Weird. I'm also curious to know if the Great River had the loading button in or out. (MadGuitarist said it was in, so it was probably in. Why should he be wrong now?)


Jasper

[Jeraz]

Well, when I hone in on the voice, I have a different pick than when I listen for how well the vocal gets along with the rest of the mix.

While any one of the clips is a fine effort in performance and mixing, I liked the Vintech when I listened to vocal only, but I give the nod to the Pacifica for how the vocal sits. And to me, this was like watching four of the best sprinters in the world run the 100 meter...with a few hundredths of a second separating the first and last. On any given day, a variation in atmospheric pressure, cosmic particles from the sun, or the mood of the listener might make a difference in the choice.

Best,

Mark

[Johnkenn]

The loading button was out on the GR. BTW - thanks Lindell for opening this back up.

Oh - BTW - after this test, I kept the Vintech, sold the GR and bought a Pacifica.

[joho]

For this test - I also liked Vintech for modern sound, Pacifica being more rounder and smooth.

Ayways, got my Pacifica couple weeks ago - everyone in town has been borrowing it so had to cut it short and start using it myself.

I've heard that people some don't like it on percussive elements (drums) as much as guitar & bass etc. Well today I tried it on an inside kick mic and snare top mic. The guy at the studio I rented was -- ... what?!... snare can have such a long attack LOL. I used it with a little peak limiting from dbx 160 SL as well as some eq from one of the amek's preamps that was there. Killer, killer tone. Veeeeery fat and long. The drumkit was really good as well, but the local dudes that knew the sound were really impressed about a preamp making such a difference...I can post a sound example if anyone's interested.

Also, I've used it very successfuly on the master fader (DA-AD insert in Nuendo). Once you learn it's sweetspot (it's actually not that high at a volume) - it really firms and fattens the low end like crazy. You got a feed it a much lower signal at first, then slightly go upwards on the master fader (either with master fader gain, or put in "post" slot) Love it! Anyone using it with a Folcrom?

-Joho

[Mike Jasper]

Originally Posted by Johnkenn

The loading button was out on the GR

Yeah, I like having the button out on vocals and acoustic guitar myself.

One thing that needs to be mentioned -- you have an uncanny ability to sing the same way on each take. Better than any other vocal shootout I've heard, and even more amazing given that the range is so complex on this song. Good job.

Jasper

[MadGuitrst]

Originally Posted by Mike Jasper

I'm also curious to know if the Great River had the loading button in or out. (MadGuitarist said it was in, so it was probably in. Why should he be wrong now?)
Jasper

No, no.......I said it was out!!!!
I could hear it as clearly as a soap bubble bursting on a butterfly's wings.

[Johnkenn]

Originally Posted by Mike Jasper

you have an uncanny ability to sing the same way on each take. Better than any other vocal shootout I've heard,

Jasper

Er..I'd like to thank Melodyne...

(BTW - speaking of Melodyne, I really do love it. I bought AT5 thinking the new version might be more usable, but no dice. Melodyne can do some funny things with breaths sometimes...and I've heard a pop and a click or two, but it's nowhere near the jerking around that AT does.)

[Mike Jasper]

Originally Posted by funka

Yes, but I think the diffs would have been much more hearable in a mic shootout. The more I record, the more I found the mics to be much more criticals than the pres. Even if, of course, a good pre can help.
Waiting for the results...

I'm gonna have to agree with you on that.

One more Great River question. Did you have the output level cranked all the way? Or was it at 12 o'clock (or 3... or 9, but I doubt it). This would be real good info as a GR owner, because the tweaks between the Gain knobs and the output level will make a difference. My guess on this is that the output level was set to 12 O'clock. If I'm wrong, then my next guess is 3 O'clock and last guess is cranked.

Jasper

[Johnkenn]

Originally Posted by Mike Jasper

I'm gonna have to agree with you on that.

One more Great River question. Did you have the output level cranked all the way? Or was it at 12 o'clock (or 3... or 9, but I doubt it). This would be real good info as a GR owner, because the tweaks between the Gain knobs and the output level will make a difference. My guess on this is that the output level was set to 12 O'clock. If I'm wrong, then my next guess is 3 O'clock and last guess is cranked.

Jasper

It was set at 12 o'clock. I actually talked to Dan Kennedy and he said that the ME-1NV basically acted like a 1073 when the output is set at 12.

[Jeff19]

great thread. and thanks for taking the time to post all of the audio clips.

i wish you had comparisions of the vintech, bae1073 and the ams-neve 1073. i'm just wondering if the differences would be staggering, subtle or similar to this comparision (in difference).

i also wonder how different the comparisons would be if you set the great river with the input very low and cranked (with the output set accordingly).i think it would be noticible and one may even stand above the other??? i guess it's a little late considering you sold it. no biggie.

[woomanmoomin]

I don't think I mentioned that this is a great thread, Johnkenn, and exactly the sort of thing I needed to clear up my misconceptions/doubts about the Peluso.

As far as the pres go, for me, it's a toss-up between the Pacifica and the Great River. (It would depend on how much I wanted to sound like Meatloaf!!! Pacifica probably wins overall, because it's not as 'eshy'.)

Very, very good work. Thanks.

[BoTTanist]

Sorry, I'm about 3 month late. Very cool of you to put up the comparisons.

My opinions...

3 The Winner! Excellent balance (Buzz Audio MA-2.2)
4 Too bassy (Pacifica)
1 Too Thin/trebly (Vintech X73i)
2 Muddy (Great River ME-1NV)

I absolutely understand how any of these could be used, respectively, for different singers or applications. I think the Buzz absolutely sounds BEST on this particular vocalist--and the one I'll buy--some day...

[Tim Farrant]

Originally Posted by WidgetNinja

Tim,

The one thing that stood out in my mind is that the MA2.2 was the only transformerless pre of the bunch. I remember a long time ago a reviewer having an issue with I believe the then new Earthworks on a particular transformerless pre having issues that were particular to that combination.

It could be the Peluso doesn't generally like a transformerless input and something weird happens.

Entirely possible of course. I would be interested to know if the impedance setting of the MA2.2 was set to hi or low.

Thanks Lindell for re-opening this thread. (I had to beg real hard!)

Having a second listen, I still don't pick up on the weird midrange on the MA2.2 others have mentioned, but what I can hear is the compressor working a bit hard and tending to "scrunch" the sound a bit, to my ears anyhow. For that style of music, something that retained more dynamic would be nice.

But, all the preamps have their attributes, and I don't think the Great River sounds cloudy, but it is quite full in the lows.

Tim.

[BoTTanist]

http://www.buzzaudio.com/products/ma2.2.htm

[Bernd Stromberg]

Where can I get more of this?
I really like your voice and the song.

Reminds me of the band Train, but with nicer voice.

By the way: I like the great river the most. Super-smooth and touching. But I wouldn't have a problem with any of these four.

[matt thomas]

listening blind I liked number 3 best, the buzz, maybe its because I'm from new zealand

To me it worked in the track the best (I only listened to the raw versions)

and the mp3-ness was annoying on all of them

narco

[piano]

Just got around to listening to this:

I liked the Vintech the best here by far.

Ha..... Vintech and Peluso ---- after reading this board for some time these two

manufactures have suffered unfairly from bad comments.

Proof is in the listening.

[popmann]

I only listened to the "raw" tracks. Blindly, I might add. In my order of preference:

3
2
4
1

I don't hear any "weirdness" in the Buzz midrange. Maybe that's the processed tracks soliciting those comments? It's the only one that really seems to not emphasize the sizzle of the mic, IMO. Great River did fine, too. That's what I always liked about the GR, which I DID like a lot on vocals. But, in truth, it's subtlety--and the only one that I found myself saying "yikes--I wouldn't use that", was the Vintech. Too strident and scratchy. I could work with any of the others.

[guitar7171]

I like

4-Fat warm definitely introduces its own color but a very cool one. I could feel the depth of the voice.
2-Warm but crisp a little too silibant
1-Crisper a little bright
3-I heard some narrow frequency response boosts in some mid areas, less even.

All of these are great pres. But having heard so many good things about Pacifica for a while now I was considering picking one up, and this helps my decision. This is great since really hard to go into Guitar center and have them let you shoot out several $2k pres. But its really the only way to tell is by using your ears. And everyone has different tastes. What some call warm others may percieve as muddy. I though tthe Pacifica was a little bottomy on the dry track but in the mix that was easy enough to roll off a touch. Much harder to make a thin pre sound fat and warm than to pull back some lows or step a couple of inches farther from the mic. But to my ears the most human and most musical was Pacifica. Maybe I'm biased cuz I was thinking of picking one up anyway. If I do get it maybe I'll do a shootout with my Daking which is no slouch either. I'm very curious to hear the difference.

[sleeps]

Originally Posted by guitar7171

2-Warm but crisp a little too silibant

It's interesting to me how everybody ears perceive tests like this so different. Not to say that any of us are "correct," it's more so a matter of taste. Perhaps some of that "taste" is a bias towards what other gear is considered to be respected here, or maybe even which one looks more "pro!"

Without looking at the results, I felt #2 was the best. I actually liked it the best because I thought it was the LEAST sibilant out of the 4. #1 definitely had a cold peak to it that sounded harsh on the more delicate parts of a vocal (sss, ssshh, ch's, t's). My vote is for the Great River.

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

I never knew that. All I know is that I was surprised how much I liked the 4x73 (I know that's not the name--the 4 channel x73) especially considering how much I dislike the Vintech 72.

Yeah...The Vintech 72 was not good for their reputation.

[Johnkenn]

Originally Posted by sleeps

It's interesting to me how everybody ears perceive tests like this so different. Not to say that any of us are "correct," it's more so a matter of taste. Perhaps some of that "taste" is a bias towards what other gear is considered to be respected here, or maybe even which one looks more "pro!"

Without looking at the results, I felt #2 was the best. I actually liked it the best because I thought it was the LEAST sibilant out of the 4. #1 definitely had a cold peak to it that sounded harsh on the more delicate parts of a vocal (sss, ssshh, ch's, t's). My vote is for the Great River.

Yeah - you're correct. This test is old as the hills, and I my opinions have changed since. I don't know if you could say my taste has matured - but it has definitely changed. What I think I - along with many others - was confusing presence and brightness with detail...Listening to this now, I'm shocked at how crispy everything is...