Songwriting studio

[Stiff]

Hey,

Me and a friend have been talking about joining forces and write/record songs for various occasions. Believe it or not, but the clients haven't been the problems.

So here's the deal:

* We record pretty much everything ourselves, with the exception of vocals OCCASIONALLY. We almost always only record one thing at a time and mostly use software based instruments with some exceptions. But bottom line is, neither of us see the use of more than two inputs.

* He have used outboard gear for mixing but lately almost only uses plug-ins. I pretty much never use outboard gear. So we figured we'd pretty much mix in the box.

* We both use the same software, mainly Pro Tools and Logic. HD seems interesting to me but it's too expensive at the moment and my friend didn't think it would be as neat as I would think.

The question is basically - what on earth would we benefit mostly from by using? What would the studio be built around? As I see it we don't have the need for lots and lots of inputs and outputs. But we both figured we should ask about it since we want pro stuff and will be writing/recording for other pros.

My friend mentioned the Apogee symphony system. I think it looked pretty nice and I like that it's expandable IF we one day would need lots of outputs and inputs, but would we benefit from it at the moment?

Just looking to get a pro sound (and yes we both know that WE need to be good and that mics and what not comes in to the calculation).

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Stiff

Hey,

Me and a friend have been talking about joining forces and write/record songs for various occasions. Believe it or not, but the clients haven't been the problems.

So here's the deal:

* We record pretty much everything ourselves, with the exception of vocals OCCASIONALLY. We almost always only record one thing at a time and mostly use software based instruments with some exceptions. But bottom line is, neither of us see the use of more than two inputs.

* He have used outboard gear for mixing but lately almost only uses plug-ins. I pretty much never use outboard gear. So we figured we'd pretty much mix in the box.

* We both use the same software, mainly Pro Tools and Logic. HD seems interesting to me but it's too expensive at the moment and my friend didn't think it would be as neat as I would think.

The question is basically - what on earth would we benefit mostly from by using? What would the studio be built around? As I see it we don't have the need for lots and lots of inputs and outputs. But we both figured we should ask about it since we want pro stuff and will be writing/recording for other pros.

My friend mentioned the Apogee symphony system. I think it looked pretty nice and I like that it's expandable IF we one day would need lots of outputs and inputs, but would we benefit from it at the moment?

Just looking to get a pro sound (and yes we both know that WE need to be good and that mics and what not comes in to the calculation).

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Truth of the matter is most reputable converters are quite good these day's....

You have RME,MetricHalo on one end and a bit more dollars will get you Lynx,Apogee .......there is a difference , how big is for each individual to decide for him/herself after hearing them ...... but conversion is only one step ......

For my money the most versatile pre you can buy is A-Designs Pacifica , you just cann't go wrong with the sound of it on almost anything .... With compression you also have flavours , a Distressor maybe the cheapest option in mono format , UA 1176 or even LA2A , maybe a Purple Audio M77 or even a summit TLA100a , all would do a great job tracking , some will handle different voices differently but with all things being equal they will all cut the gig with class , others might suggest a few more options ....

With Mics once again you have choice's , here a few diferent sounding mics would be the desired thing , in the lower end you have good mics by Blue,Peluso,AT and on the expensive side you have Sony's , Manley's etc .....

At the end of the day it depends how much you want to spend , expect most too ask you for a budget you might have in mind .....

But even a two in two out,mic ,pre-amp and compressor combo can be expensive, or it can be reasonable or cheap , depends how much you want to spend , finding the good stuff is the easy part , finding the money to pay for the most desirable option is the hardest

[Windtaken]

My personal studio breaks down like this for two channel recording(for me as a songwriter of course)

The major players are:

Mics: U87 and SF-12
->
Pre: Pacifica
->
A/D: UA 2192
->
Interface: Fireface 800
->
ITB EQs and comps, etc. as plugins
->
D/A: UA 2192
->
Adam A7s


This same setup should be good for you too since you're only doing two channel. Choosing a vocal mic could be something to experiment with. In the end, I knew that instruments were far more important and ended up spending the majority of my money on that. The logic of the above setup is getting the highest quality two channel recording. In the future, I may expand with OTB EQ and comps. The Fireface allows for expansion as well as a few quick and dirty preamps. For yourself, you could just as well remove the 2192 from the equation and replace it with an echo audiofire, which in the end will save you a lot of money since the audiofire has no pres.

If the instruments that you don't do in software only require one mic (or you'll be happy with just one mic :P...) you can go even cheaper with a single channel preamp. But that might be cutting it too much...

[Stiff]

H-Rezz,

Thanks! You gave me a lot to think about. Unfortunately I can't seem to find the pacifica here in Sweden. I had thought about the UA ones before but thanks for giving me more options on the comp bit.

The MetricHalo is really tempting, especially the +DSP version since I've heard a lot of good feedback on their plug-ins in the past. One question about Apogee though, would you have to go up to the Rosetta series at least for a great quality? What about the cheaper stuff like the minis?

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

At the end of the day it depends how much you want to spend , expect most too ask you for a budget you might have in mind .....

But even a two in two out,mic ,pre-amp and compressor combo can be expensive, or it can be reasonale or cheap , depends how much you want to spend , finding the good stuff is the easy part , finding the money to pay for the most desirable option is the hardest

Yeah for sure. Actually I like that you gave me a options in a few different price classes. Building this whole deal up will cost a lot of money so I will have to do some puzzling.

[Killahurts]

I compose for a living, among other things. The Symphony system would probably be great for you guys because: you compose on Logic, it's probably going to sound very good because it's Apogee (I never heard it), and I believe it currently has the lowest latency - very important for your ITB VI's.

But about the I/O's, I know it seems like you need just 2, but you're probably going to wish you had more at some point, probably while in the heat of a new song/composition.

It's for that and other reasons that I'm not quite ready to give up my console.

[Stiff]

Thanks for your reply as well Windtaken. Much appreciated.

I see that you also recommend the pacifica... Damn shame I can't find it here.

I see there are two Fireface models and as I said I don't need that many channels. Are they both identically except for the number of I/O? Do they sound the same?

As for the mono channel, nah, I'll probably go with a minimum of two channels. You'll never know when you want to mic a guitar with two mics or sing and and play at the same time.

[Stiff]

Killahurts,

Oh yeah, the Symphony setup looks great. Do you know how the Ensemble compares to this (since it's the same company and all)? I would rather go with the Symphony honestly but the most basic starts at 3k without pres and if I recall correctly Ensemble has 4 of them. Perhaps they aren't good enough anyway?

Originally Posted by Killahurts

But about the I/O's, I know it seems like you need just 2, but you're probably going to wish you had more at some point, probably while in the heat of a new song/composition.

I hear ya. An expandable system is a bonus.

[Windtaken]

Originally Posted by Stiff

Thanks for your reply as well Windtaken. Much appreciated.

I see that you also recommend the pacifica... Damn shame I can't find it here.

I see there are two Fireface models and as I said I don't need that many channels. Are they both identically except for the number of I/O? Do they sound the same?

As for the mono channel, nah, I'll probably go with a minimum of two channels. You'll never know when you want to mic a guitar with two mics or sing and and play at the same time.

The FF400 has fewer channels and is half rack and supposedly has some gimmick changes to the converter. Whether or not the changes are real or simply a marketing tool, you'll have to research yourself. There are a few threads on that topic. If you want to, you can even find a PCI card that simply does ADAT or AES/EBU. That way, you can use your money on some higher end conversion =]

here is the pacifica in sweden
http://www.goldenagemusic.se/

However, don't take my opinion seriously on the pacifica. I don't have discerning experience with high end pres.

[u b k]

i would put your primary focus on getting the palette of sounds dialed for the style(s) you're going for. this is the source, and everything starts there; if your sounds are limited, so are your avenues of expression. if your sounds are mediocre quality, so are your recordings. if it's pop/rock that means, e.g., a great sounding guitar and amp. if it's hiphop that means a sampler, a beatbox, and a synth or three. virtual instruments are handy, but ime they don't inspire the same creative flow and mojo that hands-on instuments do. and they never sound as good.

i would also get one really nice front end chain; one of the many ~$1200 mics that sound great, one ~$1000 pre that makes it sound even better, one channel of good tracking compression, and reasonably good converters.

if your intent is to mix everything, i would then make sure i had killer monitors, because nothing will make the process of tone selection/capture/mix easier, and allow for better results, than killer monitors in a well treated room.

your room is well treated, right?

welcome to the game . as you can see, everything is equally important, any compromise at any stage results in a compromise overall. figure out what your budget is, what your priorities are, and act accordingly. do all the gear hunting and inquiring you desire, but don't put the writing on hold in the meantime because the writing is always the most important thing. ALWAYS. build up your things around your workflow, let it evolve organically, keep the music flowing. despite what the romantics would have us believe, creativity takes practice and discipline!

enjoy.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by Windtaken

here is the pacifica in sweden
http://www.goldenagemusic.se/

Interesting that you found it. Did Sundin tip you off?

[Stiff]

u b k,

Great post man with a lot of wisdom.

Monitors are not on top of the list at the moment, I use a pair of genelecs that I'm very pleased with (and also have a pair of sennheiser phones), my buddy uses a pair he likes and combined I think we are all set on that point.

Originally Posted by u b k

i would also get one really nice front end chain; one of the many ~$1200 mics that sound great, one ~$1000 pre that makes it sound even better, one channel of good tracking compression, and reasonably good converters.

Any tips on which?

Originally Posted by u b k

welcome to the game . as you can see, everything is equally important, any compromise at any stage results in a compromise overall. figure out what your budget is, what your priorities are, and act accordingly. do all the gear hunting and inquiring you desire, but don't put the writing on hold in the meantime because the writing is always the most important thing. ALWAYS. build up your things around your workflow, let it evolve organically, keep the music flowing. despite what the romantics would have us believe, creativity takes practice and discipline!

Well said!

[Windtaken]

Originally Posted by Stiff

Interesting that you found it. Did Sundin tip you off?

lol, no, I've had mine for a while now. It was best for me since I needed the high and quiet gain for ribbons and the high variation in tone based on the gain setting. At that particular time, I was craving lots of air in my tracks too - so that was a seller as well.

It's not hard to find the dealer. In this case, I went to the A Designs website and selected dealers...and looked for Sweden. It usually works to do the same for whatever product you're looking for.

[u b k]

for mics, i wold audition the peluso p12, aea r84, pearlman tm1, and the charter oak (# eludes me, street $1300). all very different, all very versatile.

for pre's, can't go wrong with api or daking for all-purpose, lovely sounding, mix like butter tones.

tracking comps: trakker, fatso, la3a.

i won't tell you you can't do good work on genelecs, but my ardent belief is that genelecs reveal mistruth as much, or more, than they reveal truth. they make you work harder than is necessary, and there will always be problems with the mix that are inevitable due to the phase smear they produce.

good luck with it all!


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[djbrough]

Everybody here has good opinions. You should concentrate on building up your front end, and expanding your sound pallate. Personally, my situation is a lot like yours. I'm about to start a lunchbox for different colors of pres and eq, and add a couple of mid level mics to introduce different sounds. If your in the box for all of your production, I would alos sugggest you pick up anything Spectrasonics (especially Stylus RMX w/expanders), and pick up the Applied Acoustic Systems plugs ( I love all of them with the exception of string studio. It's just ok).

[redrue]

If I were putting together a studio primarily for producing
singer-songwriters and only needed to track two inputs
this is what I'd get:

Wunder CM7
Gefell UMT70s
A-Designs Pacifica
Rosetta 200
Either a Purple MC77, Trakker, LA2A or TubeTech CL1B
Focal Monitors... SM6 or SM8
Bass traps, Room treatments

that'll get you to where you want to go... for sure.

good luck.

[Stiff]

All right... Tons of great info here! I really appreciate every single input.

This far the Pacifica have gotten the most mentions and because of that I will try it out. The UA compressors seem popular too and I all ready had my mind set on them. Gotta ask though, are the combined pres and comps worth a mention? I know UAs got at least one (610?).

As for software and plug-ins, I got a pretty good idea on what to get there (and have a bunch as well). Stylus was on the list (thanks for the tip anyway djbrough ).