Stereo mix compression with Vocals high in the mix

[bdmctear]

Though I have been recording and mixing records confidently for about a decade now, I am somewhat new to mixing with compression on the whole mix. Until recently, I have sent un-compressed mixes to my mastering engineer, who runs them through a pair of NTP limiters to his tape machine. I've always thought he did a great job.

Nonetheless, I have been compressing my mixes lately and have been enjoying it quite a bit. Currently I have at my disposal a pair of Chandler LTD-2s, a Chandler EMI Abby Road, and an STC-8. For the most part I use the LTD-2s.

I am mixing an EP over the next few days, and I am having difficulty timing the compression with the vocal up high in the mix. In other words, I can get a really good sense for the timing around the intrumental mix, but as I raise the vocal, the attack and release pump and pull badly.

Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks.

[NathanEldred]

I notice this if the vocal is too dynamic in general, and/or the attack is too fast on the bus compressor or the release is too slow. Where are things set with the vocal comp, did you also compress or gently limit a bit in tracking, is the vocal automated a bit pre compressor, and where is the two bus comp set?

[soundawg]

[quote=bdmctear;1164554]I can get a really good sense for the timing around the intrumental mix, but as I raise the vocal, the attack and release pump and pull badly.
[quote]

How about just using the comp settings you like on an 'intrumental mix bus', and set up another comp for the vocal?

Soundawg

[stevep]

Agree that you should check your dynamics of the vocal... maybe do some fader rides instead of more compression if you tracked with it

#2.. Or back off the 2 buss comp till the pumping calms down

#3.. Or take the 2 buss comp out of the chain altogether


i vote for #3

[bdmctear]

The vocal is pretty compressed as well. It was tracked with about 3 to 5 db compression through a distressor, and in the mix I am running it through a Tube Tech CL-1b.

The 2 bus compression is set with att at 10 ms and release at 300 ms. I am compressing between -1/2 dB (at instrumental sections, usually peaking on snare hits at - 1 dB) to 2 dB (brought on occasionally by vocals).

I suppose I should consider automating those moments, though to my ear they don't sound louder.

[bdmctear]

[quote=soundawg;1164579][quote=bdmctear;1164554]I can get a really good sense for the timing around the intrumental mix, but as I raise the vocal, the attack and release pump and pull badly.

How about just using the comp settings you like on an 'intrumental mix bus', and set up another comp for the vocal?

Soundawg

I thought about this. I am imagining that at the end of the process when I print instrumental and vocal-only mixes, I could recombine the two to have the ultimate mix. But what a pain in the ass! There has to be a way to stream line that process. I suppose I could run all instruments through one stereo buss and the vocals through a second stereo bus, but then I wonder if someone else will be dealing with the odd compression factors in mastering?

[amishsixstringe]

God my ears ****in suck if you can hear pumping at 1/2dB reduction.

Neil

[djui5]

Originally Posted by bdmctear

The 2 bus compression is set with att at 10 ms and release at 300 ms.

That's your problem. The 2 buss comp attack should be at its slowest setting, and the release at its fastest.

[soundawg]

Originally Posted by bdmctear

I suppose I could run all instruments through one stereo buss and the vocals through a second stereo bus, but then I wonder if someone else will be dealing with the odd compression factors in mastering?

I think it's worth a listen......and don't think it's odd.

Soundawg

[burst]

Originally Posted by djui5

That's your problem. The 2 buss comp attack should be at its slowest setting, and the release at its fastest.

Agreed... seems like your release time is way slow for 2 bus compression.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by bdmctear

Though I have been recording and mixing records confidently for about a decade now, I am somewhat new to mixing with compression on the whole mix. Until recently, I have sent un-compressed mixes to my mastering engineer, who runs them through a pair of NTP limiters to his tape machine. I've always thought he did a great job.

Nonetheless, I have been compressing my mixes lately and have been enjoying it quite a bit. Currently I have at my disposal a pair of Chandler LTD-2s, a Chandler EMI Abby Road, and an STC-8. For the most part I use the LTD-2s.

I am mixing an EP over the next few days, and I am having difficulty timing the compression with the vocal up high in the mix. In other words, I can get a really good sense for the timing around the intrumental mix, but as I raise the vocal, the attack and release pump and pull badly.

Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks.

Let me see if I can paraphrase the problem. It's as if when evertyhing arrives at teh stereo buss, certain things (like the vocals) need the stereo buss compressor set one way and certain things (like the instruments) need the stereo buss compressor set another way.

This is the the problem that Michael Brauer's Multi-buss compression solves.

The most raw and simple version for this example, would be to buss all of the instruments to one buss and the vocals to another and then summ them at the stereo without a stereo bus compressor.


I think you could probably achicv the same thing wihout multiple busses in this case, but I don't know that for sure. If you start going down the multibuss road, you may start to notice the same problem within the instrument, from the bass maybe. Then you might need three busses. It will depend on what the particular songs needs.

[dokushoka]

Originally Posted by djui5

That's your problem. The 2 buss comp attack should be at its slowest setting, and the release at its fastest.

Or not.

Songs don't all push a comp the same way...

[dokushoka]

Originally Posted by bdmctear

Though I have been recording and mixing records confidently for about a decade now, I am somewhat new to mixing with compression on the whole mix. Until recently, I have sent un-compressed mixes to my mastering engineer, who runs them through a pair of NTP limiters to his tape machine. I've always thought he did a great job.

Nonetheless, I have been compressing my mixes lately and have been enjoying it quite a bit. Currently I have at my disposal a pair of Chandler LTD-2s, a Chandler EMI Abby Road, and an STC-8. For the most part I use the LTD-2s.

I am mixing an EP over the next few days, and I am having difficulty timing the compression with the vocal up high in the mix. In other words, I can get a really good sense for the timing around the intrumental mix, but as I raise the vocal, the attack and release pump and pull badly.

Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks.

For some songs, I'll set up a two or three buss setup where one is drums, the other everything else sans vocals and effects returns, and the third, obviously is the vocals and returns.

This can work well.

Typically, though, I prefer to let the vocal be what is pushing the mixbuss comp the most...

If the vocal is driving the mixbuss comp nuts, either tweak the mix buss comp, or level the vocal more.

That's my take on it.

[Sigma]

[quote=soundawg;1164579][quote=bdmctear;1164554]I can get a really good sense for the timing around the intrumental mix, but as I raise the vocal, the attack and release pump and pull badly.

How about just using the comp settings you like on an 'intrumental mix bus', and set up another comp for the vocal?

Soundawg

ditto

[djui5]

Originally Posted by dokushoka

Or not.

Songs don't all push a comp the same way...

Or so, I use that setting on every buss comp I've ever used on a mix :)

[dokushoka]

Originally Posted by djui5

Or so, I use that setting on every buss comp I've ever used on a mix :)

Fair enough. Its just that "should" word that bugs me.

[FatStudio]

Hay

I can add 2 things ..

First is how soon are you adding the compressor ,if I do it too late in the mix its hard to control radical changes ,as it changes many things (bass ,punch..).

Its easier for me to work out the balance on a mix with compression ,if I can hear things from the start.

secondly ,vocals are more "free" of timing then drums or bass ,300ms release might be about a 1/4 note and pump the instrumental very good but loud vocals would take it out of "time ,groove" and would make the pump more audible .

I would probably go for 2nd buss for vocals on fast songs .

[djui5]

Originally Posted by dokushoka

Fair enough. Its just that "should" word that bugs me.

I see :)

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by bdmctear

Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks.

Either raise the threshold or change the mixbuss comp.

[bdmctear]

Originally Posted by djui5

That's your problem. The 2 buss comp attack should be at its slowest setting, and the release at its fastest.

This is good to know. I saw an earlier post where someone is looking for straight answers on what is fast and what is slow when it comes to attack and release. I arrived at my settings on my own, with a really low threshold at first, finding that the attack lets the punch through starting at 10 ms, and then the release is smoother slower. Usually, after I get the timing I raise the threshold which, to my ear sounds best at around -1/2 dB to -1 1/2 dB.

With this current project, I presume I could be compressing too much, as well, because with those vocals cranked up, it was hitting -2dB on occasion.

Maybe my vocals were a little loud, too.

I appreciate the help, folks! Time to go back to mixing!

[u b k]

this is predictable with the chandlers... their detector responds more to vocal freqs than anything else. for giggles, slap the stc8 across the mix instead, and notice how much smoother the action is.

also, i disagree that 300ms is too slow for 2-bus work. it very much depends on the energy of the material, the style of compression you're using, the knee, the ratio, and how hard you're digging in. i've had some of my mixes closer to 750ms, it makes the compression much more invisible and lets you work the various sweet spots of the knee more effectively.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[bdmctear]

Thank you.

The STC-8 and I have some history... most of it involves me really screwing up mixes with it years back. Though now I (hope I) am older and wiser, etc.

The LTD-2 is so straight forward and simple. Would you be able to recommend a starting point on the STC-8 for beginning comparison? These presets are a bit confusing, though I know this thing is incredible.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by bdmctear

This is good to know. I saw an earlier post where someone is looking for straight answers on what is fast and what is slow when it comes to attack and release. I arrived at my settings on my own, with a really low threshold at first, finding that the attack lets the punch through starting at 10 ms, and then the release is smoother slower. Usually, after I get the timing I raise the threshold which, to my ear sounds best at around -1/2 dB to -1 1/2 dB.

With this current project, I presume I could be compressing too much, as well, because with those vocals cranked up, it was hitting -2dB on occasion.

Maybe my vocals were a little loud, too.

I appreciate the help, folks! Time to go back to mixing!

10ms is insanely fast. It may let them tip of the transient through, but there's a whole lot of punch that that's squashing.

Your Abbey Road comp in limit mode is 8ms.

I'd try working at least 5x slower and maybe as much as 10x slower.