Help! Vertically Challenged Room

[Black Bottle]

I am endeavoring to build a small and modest project studio in the basement of my house. The trouble with the space for my control room or listening room is that the ceiling is low. I contemplated jack hammering out the existing concrete slab floor and lowering it, but wifey (who already thinks I'm nuts) wasn't having it. I'm trying to keep this build project in perspective by acknowedging that hopefully this little modest project studio isn't going to be the last project studio that I build. At this point my goal is to have a functional, relatively flat sounding space that will be isolated enough so as to not drive my wife nuts above.

I am about to start framing the walls, but I'm hemming and hawing about how I am going to finish the ceiling. The distance from the floor to the bottom of the floor joists above is about 6'6" and the joists are another 9", so its about 7'3" from the slab to the floor above. As part of the goal to isolate the room from the kitchen space above I have decided to install a couple 5/8" sheets of sheet rock to the subfloor above.

My question is: in order to gain as much vertical space as I can, should I leave the joists open in the ceiling and put treatment (homemade bass traps made from Owens Corning 703, etc.) between the joists or should I insulate the joist space and install sheetrock below the joists, effectively shrinking my already small space at least an 1" or 2". I would then also probably have to install some form of "cloud" on the ceiling which would take me down another 2-4".

I'm leaning towards leaving the joists open, but that would involve quite a bit of work to maintain a symtrical space given that the room is angled 45 degrees to the ceiling joists. Is it better to have a space a neat and tidy 6' tall space or a funky looking 7' space broken up by a grid of joists and treament in the ceiling? Does an extra foot make a big difference in an already small space?

I've attached a couple pics to illustrate the space.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Black Bottle

in order to gain as much vertical space as I can, should I leave the joists open in the ceiling and put treatment (homemade bass traps made from Owens Corning 703, etc.) between the joists

Yes. If you think about it, a ceiling that's 100 percent absorbing is acoustically equal to a ceiling that's infinitely high. Either way sound goes up and doesn't come back. The only downside is you'll have less isolation to the upstairs than if you put sheet rock on the ceiling. So pick one - good sound or good isolation.

--Ethan

[catastrophic]

Originally Posted by Black Bottle

My question is: in order to gain as much vertical space as I can, should I leave the joists open in the ceiling and put treatment (homemade bass traps made from Owens Corning 703, etc.) between the joists

I have the exact situation you have, and this is what I'm doing. I'm doing a layer, maybe 2, of 5/8 rock between joists sealed as best I can. then I'm filling the joists with insulation and covering with cloth. seems to be the best compromise to the sound transmission/treatment problem.

Hope that helps!
Kevin

[Lynn Fuston]

Nothing stops sound transmission like mass. If isolation is your goal, then you'll have to do the drywall under the studs.

[Black Bottle]

Thanks for your help!

I think I'm going to opt for sound quality vs. isolation. Maybe in the future I'll have a better space to work with and I'll be able to have my cake and eat it too!

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by catastrophic

I have the exact situation you have, and this is what I'm doing. I'm doing a layer, maybe 2, of 5/8 rock between joists sealed as best I can. then I'm filling the joists with insulation and covering with cloth. seems to be the best compromise to the sound transmission/treatment problem.
Hope that helps!
Kevin

I've asked around for my space and the consensus is sheet rock up under the sub floor above, then 703 between joist and then some kind of cloth. in your case the cloth can hide the visual of the 45
good luck ...Kevin

[Todd24]

Try drywall between the studs all the way up, then use insulation and fabric below that?

[Sigma]

use green rock then mass loaded vinyl then sheetrock of a differnt thickness than the green rock..going thru diff density medium exponentially blocks sound transmission..then i'd just maybe put up rigid fiberglass as the cieling is so low

[Fletcher]

703 isn't some magic acoustic treatment... its stiff, which is nice when you're putting it on a wall... but seeing as you're talking about putting it between the joists, I'd recommend you get big old rolls of the like 10" thick stuff and plan on cloth coating the top of the room.

The problem with 703 is that its only absorbtive to about 1kHz, maybe a little lower... which means that you'll still get the bounce in the lower mids. With thicker insulation in the ceiling you'll have a chance of stopping some of the lower frequency energy... the floor of the room upstairs will stay pretty transparent to most of the energy from like 100Hz and below so its really the lower mids you're worrying about [the classic problem with ceilings that are too low... you end up with a boxy sounding room unless you pay very careful attention to figuring out how to manage the low mid frequencies].

If you can "decouple" the speakers from the physical room you might have a chance of staying married a little longer... and if the opportunity presents itself, you may very well want to think about "floating" the room above your room as there won't really be a way to add any mass to your room, but if you add mass above your room and decouple the floor of the upstairs room from your secret basement hideaway she may be a bit less prone to stabbing you in your sleep.

Best of luck with it!!

[nosebleedaudio]

[QUOTE=Fletcher;1157879]703 isn't some magic acoustic treatment... its stiff, which is nice when you're putting it on a wall... but seeing as you're talking about putting it between the joists, I'd recommend you get big old rolls of the like 10" thick stuff and plan on cloth coating the top of the room.

The problem with 703 is that its only absorbtive to about 1kHz, maybe a little lower... which means that you'll still get the bounce in the lower mids. With thicker insulation in the ceiling you'll have a chance of stopping some of the lower frequency energy... the floor of the room upstairs will stay pretty transparent to most of the energy from like 100Hz and below so its really the lower mids you're worrying about [the classic problem with ceilings that are too low... you end up with a boxy sounding room unless you pay very careful attention to figuring out how to manage the low mid frequencies].

What are you talking about Fletcher, good only down to 1khz?
Big time incorrect. Thickness is everything, 6" of 703 will be effective in the 50hz range.....
I agree that putting 703 between joists will not make much difference compared to the pink stuff, it will only add a few STC points. Mass, decoupling, and more mass is what is really going to make a difference.

[Fletcher]

You're probably right about 6" thick 703... I would have never thought of that. Being a cheap prick I'd rather cram 10" of the pink stuff between the joists than spending my kids college tuition money on 703 I'd have to cut [ewww, itchy, itchy, itchy] and then figure out how to stack 6" thick without using glue [which would lessen the effectiveness of the 703]... but you sir, are spot on about a serious thinkness like that going lower in the frequency spectrum [I somehow doubt as low as 50, but I do concede the point].

Peace.

[6strings]

Originally Posted by Black Bottle

Thanks for your help!

I think I'm going to opt for sound quality vs. isolation. Maybe in the future I'll have a better space to work with and I'll be able to have my cake and eat it too!

Stuff mineral fiber isulation in between the joists (leave a bit of an air gap up there for further isolation) then put up a CeilingMax suspended tile system using acoustical tiles. This should be what you're looking for... (I used it in my basement with 7' clearance)

http://www.acpideas.com/index.cfm?XlinkID=13

The grid attaches directly to the joists (does not hang by wires) and takes standard 2X2 tiles. A LOT better than sheetrock, not permanent, and should give a good balance of sound isolation and absorbtion. You can get the CeilingMax at Home Depot (at least that's where I got it)

[d. gauss]

to save height and marriage, make your wife happy and redo the kitchen floor. perhaps in nice 2 inch thick granite or marble tiles?

[tigeba]

I was in a similar situation in my basement. I did something that was perhaps slightly unconventional. When I built the stud frames for the walls, I did not have them go all the way to the floor joists, I left a little room, maybe just a couple inches low. Then I brought in new floor joists, and ran them parallel, between the existing joists and attached them to the stud walls. So now I essentially have a "false" ceiling that is floating and disconnected from the real one above.

I filled in everything with insulation and then I installed 2 layers of 5/8" sheetrock. The isolation is very effective. It has lots of mass, and it is decoupled from the floor above. I actually did all the walls in my studio with 2 layers of 5/8" rock, once vertical and once horizontal, and made sure to use plenty of caulk.

I only lost a couple inches of ceiling height this way, and it looks nice. I have the ceiling treated additionally with some 703 bass trap panels. In hindsight, when I built my house the builder offered me the option of 10ft basement walls for a few thousand dollars extra, and I was dumb not to take it!

Some photos are here, but of course you can't really see the ceiling.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tigeba/...7594564929675/

[infiniteposse]

I highly recommend you check out this forum: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php

They can help with the design of your space and also the methodology of your build. I've been getting mine ready to go for over 2 years now and am getting close to done. If you'd like to check out the process and progress in a space fairly similar to yours, go to http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5983.

I'd also recommend ordering a copy of Rod Gervais' book: http://www.amazon.com/Home-Recording...2856061&sr=1-1

Good luck!

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by d. gauss

to save height and marriage, make your wife happy and redo the kitchen floor. perhaps in nice 2 inch thick granite or marble tiles?

Yeah... but make sure to have a structural engineer give you the "go ahead" before adding that much weight to the floor... I like having the wife on top of me as much as the next guy but not when she comes down on me with a couple of tons of marble/granite.

If you go that route you should "float" the tile on Neoprene or something that doesn't kinetically transmit energy.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Being a cheap prick I'd rather cram 10" of the pink stuff between the joists than spending my kids college tuition money on 703

This from a guy who raves repeatedly about $4,500 toob equalizers and other one-trick ponies.

But I love you anyway, man.

--Ethan

[blueraven]

For help in isolating kitchen form studio, think abt using resilient channels.

Your space abv/bet joists needs to analyzed per its energy absorbing characteristics.
this will change dep on the mass you put in there, the depth and the outside covering..add 3/16" ply with a lot of holes and you have a helmholtz resonator..

point is you can fig this all out before you build, you may save yourself some work later.

[alcohol]

Originally Posted by blueraven

For help in isolating kitchen form studio, think abt using resilient channels.

Your space abv/bet joists needs to analyzed per its energy absorbing characteristics.
this will change dep on the mass you put in there, the depth and the outside covering..add 3/16" ply with a lot of holes and you have a helmholtz resonator..

point is you can fig this all out before you build, you may save yourself some work later.

Exactly. the reslient channels is the most effective thing you can do to isolate sound with your floor joists. Attaching sheet rock directly to the floor joists won't isolate very much sound.

I had the exact same situation in building my basement studio. sound isolation was very important to me. From much research I found that the suspended ceiling with the reilient channels was the biggest sound attenuation for the buck with the least amount of ceiling space lost. I put three inches of unsided fiberglass insulation between the joists for the purpose of stopping resonance in the joist cavities. No insultation between the floor joists will attenuate significant sound from or to the the room above.

Make sure you don't screw into your joists when you hang the rock. The screws should only go into the resilient channels. Otherwise your shorting your isolation and the sheetrock becomes a diaphram that transmits sound into the joists.

I hung my ceiling before I built the walls.

You should also isolate your wall from the floor joists above, or else your walls will be transmitting sound into the above floor. I did that by using rubber motor mounts to secure the walls from the ceiling. They can be bought from an HVAC store.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

This from a guy who raves repeatedly about $4,500 toob equalizers and other one-trick ponies.

I don't have any problem spending the kids' college tuition on stuff that will make a difference [and allow me to earn so I can replace the money I "borrowed"]