Full, compact sounding mixes

[NathanC]

I've tried to ask this before in another tread, but wasn't getting the answers I was hoping for. So now I've rephrased my question, hoping for more satisfying answers.

First a little about me. I'm a professional (as in, I do it full-time for a living) studio engineer. It's not a music recording studio, but I mainly record and mix commercials for national tv, radio, and such. There are also other productions involved, but it's mainly voice overs and sound effects. I think I'm doing my job well. However, when it comes down to recording and mixing music, it's a whole different cup of tea. This I do mainly for pleasure, and in the weekends for people I know, or people who know people I know. Or even for people who know people who know people I know.

It occurs frequently that when I'm mixing music I've recorded I'm quite satisfied with the results. To my ears, it sounds like I've recorded the instruments well and gave them a comfortable spot in the mix. People often tell me they like it that in my mixes they can actually hear every instrument that's in it. But then, when I a/b my mixes with commercial releases, they tend to sound thinner and not quite so full. I'm not talking about volume here, but about the total sound image my mixes have. It's all there: the lows, the mids, the highs, but the overall picture is just... thin.

What could it be? Is it the mastering that makes the difference? Or could it be something I'm doing wrong?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by NathanC

What could it be?

The right perspective. Its the hardest thing to develop. At least you know something is lacking which is a start.

And the other a lot of times is the bass or not enough bottom end to the mix. People tend to shy away from it. I think on digital its pretty easy to get the hi's right. And the mids if you have a good ear can be tweaked either forward or back.

But to get the big, wide and juicy bottom end is what separates the men from the boys.

[CKK]

I do like juicy bottoms

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

But to get the big, wide and juicy bottom end is what separates the men from the boys.

Could you elaborate on that some more?

I like a nice bottom end. In fact, I think I'm quite ok at letting the kick and bass(guitar) sit nicely at the bottom of the mix. I do, however, tend to use HP filters on a lot of the rest, to avoid a messy bottom end. Maybe I'm overdoing it?

[FatStudio]

Hay

I can give you my personal experience ,and hope you can benefit from it .

I had the same problem in the past ,I use a few things to cope with it.

1.listen to reference music in the style you are mixing through the same converters you are going to mix with ,at the beginning of the mix .
I don't like to do it this much I want to let my imagination fly and not fined myself imitating the reference.

2.take in to account how much mid content is going to be in the mix while working on the bass and kick ,its surprising how much lo end you can get away with .

3.treble and hi mid in the arrangement are the enemy's of nice bright vocals ,big thick bass and ambiance in the mix ,listen to good mixes ,most instruments aren't as bright as you might think ,even HH some times .

4.Digital is more open/harsh then tape,I don't want to get in to it but ,it feels counter intuitive to roll of treble ,I do it on some tracks with good results .

5.as I see it ,all plug-ins harsh up and degrade things ,less depth... ,use less plugs and A/B with the same volume ,some time bad thing happen along side with the good things.

6.I try to use less compression if I can and do a lot of automation ,it gives life to a mix ,if everything is at the same level it tends to sound tight but boaring...



FS

[u b k]

if you could post a clip it'd take this conversation away from theory and into reality.

hpf's could definitely be part of your problem; in addition to hacking away the love down low, they introduce phase shift on everything above the chop point. may not sound too bad on a single track, but pile that stuff up (especially itb) and things can get pretty hollow pretty fast. but again, it's hard to say without hearing your mixes.

do you use mix compression? this is a huge part of the sound of commercial releases, if your mixes are wide open they'll never sound quite as glued unless they're turned up loud.

you seem to be looking at things from a frequency perspective, but i'd be willing to bet a few quid that your issues are more to do with compression and balances. when i started mixing i heard left to right, somewhere along the way i started to grasp front to back. after 10 years my ears are only just now beginning to hear top to bottom, which is a whole 'nother world and the only way thru the gates is with the faders.

have you ever had a pro master your mixes? it helps... a LOT.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by u b k

if you could post a clip it'd take this conversation away from theory and into reality.

Here's a clip from a mix that I'm working on at the moment. What am I doing wrong here?

Originally Posted by u b k

you seem to be looking at things from a frequency perspective, but i'd be willing to bet a few quid that your issues are more to do with compression and balances. when i started mixing i heard left to right, somewhere along the way i started to grasp front to back. after 10 years my ears are only just now beginning to hear top to bottom, which is a whole 'nother world and the only way thru the gates is with the faders.

I'm still having issues with the fromt to back thing. I wonder how people manage to create space in their mixes.

Originally Posted by u b k

have you ever had a pro master your mixes? it helps... a LOT.

No, but it's going to happen for the first time soon. I hope it will help!

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by NathanC

Here's a clip from a mix that I'm working on at the moment. What am I doing wrong here?



I'm still having issues with the fromt to back thing. I wonder how people manage to create space in their mixes.



No, but it's going to happen for the first time soon. I hope it will help!

Sounds really good! I would put the kick/snare a little bit louder, this would give more impact and energy in the mix. The mix is good, but a good mastering would defenitely help and add objectivity on your mix.

[fastlane]

to me there is no defined bottom end. I'm only listening on headphones but it hard to pick out the bass drum and the bass in the chorus section. Also there seems to be very little below 200Hz, I'd hold back on the high pass filter if I were you. Also, pump up the bass guitar and the kick, in fact the snare could do with more volume too.


Question, do you use a sub woofer when mixing??

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by luctellier

Sounds really good! I would put the kick/snare a little bit louder, this would give more impact and energy in the mix. The mix is good, but a good mastering would defenitely help and add objectivity on your mix.

Thanks! I went to your Myspace and your music sounds really good! And I see you're a Steinberg user. I use Nuendo myself

Originally Posted by fastlane

to me there is no defined bottom end. I'm only listening on headphones but it hard to pick out the bass drum and the bass in the chorus section. Also there seems to be very little below 200Hz, I'd hold back on the high pass filter if I were you. Also, pump up the bass guitar and the kick, in fact the snare could do with more volume too.


Question, do you use a sub woofer when mixing??

Thanks, I'll hold back on the HPF some more and see what happens. I'm a bit affraid of low frequencies. I have no idea why...
When I'm mixing I prefer not to use a sub woofer. I want my mixes to sound good without them. I do have a sub woofer in the studio, but only use it when I'm specifically working on the bottom end.

[fastlane]

Originally Posted by NathanC

Thanks! I went to your Myspace and your music sounds really good! And I see you're a Steinberg user. I use Nuendo myself



Thanks, I'll hold back on the HPF some more and see what happens. I'm a bit affraid of low frequencies. I have no idea why...
When I'm mixing I prefer not to use a sub woofer. I want my mixes to sound good without them. I do have a sub woofer in the studio, but only use it when I'm specifically working on the bottom end.

I only asked because I thought you might be holding back on the low end because the subwoofer was too loud or too good if ya know what I mean.

I'm afraid in your case you'll just have to play around with varying amounts of bass on your mixes and then play them on loads of different stereos, once you get the right balance you'll know what to aim for the next time.

Enjoy!!!

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by NathanC

Thanks! I went to your Myspace and your music sounds really good! And I see you're a Steinberg user. I use Nuendo myself

Thanks, I'll hold back on the HPF some more and see what happens. I'm a bit affraid of low frequencies. I have no idea why...
When I'm mixing I prefer not to use a sub woofer. I want my mixes to sound good without them. I do have a sub woofer in the studio, but only use it when I'm specifically working on the bottom end.

Thanks Nathan! Yep, Cubase SX3 user!

I used to have the inverse problem you have. My mix used to be always to muddy in the low end, to much bass. It's okay in the kind of music I'm working but once I started using highpass filter, it helped the low end to be more tight but still having a good bass in it. Are you mixing using a sub? If yes, make sure it is carefully calibrated with some good references. If no, get one! It will help you to control that fat low-end that sometimes you can't hear with monitors or headphones.

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by luctellier

Are you mixing using a sub? If yes, make sure it is carefully calibrated with some good references. If no, get one! It will help you to control that fat low-end that sometimes you can't hear with monitors or headphones.

Yes, I'm using a sub. I'm having a hard time calibrating it, and I thought I was on the right track. Maybe not...

I'll keep working on it!

[Joe Ferla]

Originally Posted by NathanC

Here's a clip from a mix that I'm working on at the moment. What am I doing wrong here?



I'm still having issues with the fromt to back thing. I wonder how people manage to create space in their mixes.



No, but it's going to happen for the first time soon. I hope it will help!

I just listened to your mix . The balances seem pretty good to me except for the bass and kick. First of all I think they can be louder. But they seem to lack fullness. Don't be afraid to have lo end on these instruments. You also need to make sure you have enough lo mid frequencies to make the lo end come through on speakers that don't go down there and give these instruments punch. It seems you are using too much hi pass. Also other instruments in the mix seem thin. You need a fuller sound on all the instruments, not only the bottom. Regarding front to back we create that with reverbs. Don't use reverbs as an effect. Use them to create depth. Think of it this way. If an instrument is behind another instrument it would appear to be softer in volume and have more ambience on it than the instrument that's closer to you. So when mixing if you want to put an instrument back there it must be lower with more reverb. I use a lot of different reverbs with different decay times and pre-delays to achieve this. But you can even achieve this with one verb. Between volume, panning, and reverb you should be able to float an instrument anywhere in your mix. I hope this is helpful.

Good luck,

Joe

[Crash]

I agree with what most are saying here. The clarity is there but the rthym section sounds as though it has been de-balled, so to speak. Might I suggest that you try a mix or two with the sub not in the picture. In my opinion, sub can be a dangerous beast until you get really dialed in with what your main monitors are doing. Can you give us more details on your sub setup, like crossover points, what are you main monitors, how is the sub wired into the rig, is your room treated?

[fastlane]

Originally Posted by Crash

I agree with what most are saying here. The clarity is there but the rthym section sounds as though it has been de-balled, so to speak. Might I suggest that you try a mix or two with the sub not in the picture. In my opinion, sub can be a dangerous beast until you get really dialed in with what your main monitors are doing. Can you give us more details on your sub setup, like crossover points, what are you main monitors, how is the sub wired into the rig, is your room treated?

I agree with ya, I hate using sub's when mixing.

[fastlane]

Originally Posted by Crash

rthym section sounds as though it has been de-balled, so to speak.

De-Balled, I love it. Drummed by a castrato!!!!

[Crash]

I am actually using a sub now but it took me a long time to get comfortable enough to get to that point. Plus, my sub is so subtle in volume that it really is there just to help me hear what is going on below 80 hz, and give me the just the slightest "ooomph" in my monitoring. I have a second set of monitors that have no sub that are more real world that I also use as my reality check during a mix.

[NathanC]

Thanks for the comments so far! You are already helping me a great deal!

Information about my monitoring setup: I'm using KRK V8's, and a KRK V12 sub. I set the crossover at about 100 Hz. There are bass traps and auralex behind the speakers.

I made a quick new mix with the bass, kick and snare a little louder. I also backed off the HPF on the piano. What do you think?

[Crash]

I am only getting 4 seconds of the tune, though those 4 seconds did sound better near as I could tell.

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by NathanC

Thanks for the comments so far! You are already helping me a great deal!

Information about my monitoring setup: I'm using KRK V8's, and a KRK V12 sub. I set the crossover at about 100 Hz. There are bass traps and auralex behind the speakers.

I made a quick new mix with the bass, kick and snare a little louder. I also backed off the HPF on the piano. What do you think?

Sounds better, try adding some attack on the kick at 5khz or 8khz. I still think that some bass is missing. Try using Waves Renaissance Bass on your bass DI track. But yes, it's already better! Drums and Bass creates the dynamic and energy of a mix, of course lead vocal is the most important thing but the main reason why some songs sounds demo vs professional is the lack of energy in the mix. Also, people tend to put things lot brither than needed as a results of a thin mix. By creating a solid and tight low-end and low-mid, you get more attack and energy in your mix.

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by luctellier

try adding some attack on the kick at 5khz or 8khz. I still think that some bass is missing. Try using Waves Renaissance Bass on your bass DI track.

To my taste, there's enough attack on the kick for this style of music. If more people agree with you, I'll try it and see what happens.

I'll work on the bass, though. Does it still sound like a DI'ed track? It is DI'ed, but there's the Ampeg SVX plug-in on it.

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by NathanC

To my taste, there's enough attack on the kick for this style of music. If more people agree with you, I'll try it and see what happens.

I'll work on the bass, though. Does it still sound like a DI'ed track? It is DI'ed, but there's the Ampeg SVX plug-in on it.

You might be right, I don't really work in that kind of music usually, I've listened to some other things of this genre and I think you're right, the kick might be fine like this. Regarding the bass, there's no problem with a bass sounding like if it was DI'ed, any fender jazzbass through a DI sounds awesome. I was refering to the lack of low-end in the bass itself.

[Crash]

OK, I now have all 43 seconds of it. Yep, it is better but it is still lacking something with the bass guitar part, still needs some punch or something.

How do you start your mix? Do you build the rthym section and then add things or do you build around a vocal or what?

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by Crash

OK, I now have all 43 seconds of it. Yep, it is better but it is still lacking something with the bass guitar part, still needs some punch or something.

How do you start your mix? Do you build the rthym section and then add things or do you build around a vocal or what?

Could you define "punch"?

I usually start my mix with the drums. Then I add the bass, the guitars, the keys, and the vocals. Once I've added the vocals and they're not coming through, I start cutting the instruments.

[Crash]

I guess in this sense, I am referring to the low end dynamics. I think of a mix having "punch" when you turn it up and the kick and bass (the foundation of the mix) are thumping you in the chest to some degree. What instruments do you tend to cut when you feel the vocal is getting crowded?

I was going to suggest you do a botom up mix, but you are already doing that.

Is it possible you could post part of a verse? The mix sounds totally different there from what I can tell but I only have a tiny bit to check out with the current sample. Seems to me that the mix gets more balanced right there where the guitars drop out, at least in terms of bass and drums with the vocal.

[NathanC]

Here's another one. I changed the EQ on the bass, and a little on the acoustic guitar.

[FatStudio]

Hay

Things are getting better !

I think you need some ambiance on the SD and acoustic guitars.

and maybe instead of HP on the guitars just take out things in the 160 range with a 1.5 Q +-

The OH or AC GTR tracks might be too wide .

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by Crash

What instruments do you tend to cut when you feel the vocal is getting crowded?

Keyboards, and if there's no other way guitars.

Originally Posted by Crash

Is it possible you could post part of a verse? The mix sounds totally different there from what I can tell but I only have a tiny bit to check out with the current sample. Seems to me that the mix gets more balalnced right there where the guitars drop out, at least in terms of bass and drums with the vocal.

I don't think it's ok to post any more of the song at this point. I do agree with you, so that's why I posted the chorus. It makes little sense, because there's no automation yet. I'm still working on the basic mix. So the settings are the same.

[Crash]

OK. When you get the automation done and your levels where you want for the chorus, then it may straighten out a bit. From what I heard so far, you are headed in the right direction.