Advice on Tape machine-analog slutz!

[beruang]

Slutz, I am really desiring to get back to tape after using everything but tape for many years now. I've got an inline console perfectly suited for a 24 track 2" deck or a 16 channel 2" deck (An Amek board) and I think its time ot use it as such. I've got great converters, great gear, etc-so its a matter or nothing but the tape machine.

So-I can either buy a really nice 2" tape machine for TRACKING, or a really nice 2 track machine for MIXDOWN. Question #1 is this-which is better idea, generally?
note-I know about costs, maintenance, etc of both types of decks-I'm talking sonically better here!

The advantage I can see in tracking to tape is that a single A/D conversion is needed (to get the mix into PT or similar), whereas tracking to digital and mixing back through the console to 2 track tape requires an A/D conversion (to get into the computer initially), a D/A conversion (to get from the digital world back to the tape via the console), and a THIRD conversion to get it all back into the digital realm and onto a CD/DAT/whatever.

I'd appreciate input from those that are users of tape machines on this, and take suggetions for best models to buy for the above machines. Studer, Otari, even MCI...etc.

Thanks All!
Mike

[numrologst]

I bought a jh-24 about 6 months ago, and it was the best purchase I ever made... I really love this machine... And with steve saddler's phone service, it's a breeze to troubleshoot in the rare occasion i have a problem...

I would definately get a 2" machine over the digital mixdwon to 1/2"... There is no substitute for tracking to 2"

[Capstan Cappy]

same here jh-24 , great machines own a couple and hardly ever problems

[Natural Mystic]

I think you could do quite well to get both! For the price you'd pay on a 1/2" atr-100 or such, you could get a great multi track and mix down deck. Keep you eye out for the following multi tracks, you should be able to find one between 2 or 3 grand these days:

Otari MTR90mkII or mkIII
Ampex MM1200
MCI JH-16

As for mixdowns, some people like the Otari MTR-15 or Studer B67. I'm sure you'll get some more ideas as more people post.


Congrats on going analog!

[Flymax]

Are you doing more tracking or mixing?
That might answer it for you..

[soundbarnfool]

I too am fortunate to have the tech support of Steve Sadler here in Nashville for my MCI 1" 8 track AND MCI 2 track machines. Tape sounds SO MUCH better (in the under a million dollar budget department).

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by numrologst

I bought a jh-24 about 6 months ago, and it was the best purchase I ever made... I really love this machine... And with steve saddler's phone service, it's a breeze to troubleshoot in the rare occasion i have a problem...

Sounds like my path exactly. I'm almost finished restoring my JH-24, and I can't wait to get it online. I've replaced all the IC sockets on the mother/daughter boards under the transport, resoldered all the Molex pins on same (a known trouble spot), and recapped the power supplies and ALL of the channel cards (don't ask how many caps I replaced). I also found a great deal on a new set of Sony amorphous heads, which ended up costing me less than a relap of the old heads would've set me back.

Steve Sadler has been of IMMENSE help during all of this, and his tech subscription service is the BEST money I've ever spent on anything audio related. Can't say enough good things about him.

All in all, I'll have just about $2500 in my machine when it's finished and wired to my Neotek. Not a bad investment at all, IMHO.

I'm currently looking for a 2-track mixdown deck as I plan to be able to have an all-analog recording chain available to my clients.

Cheers,
--
Don

[GearHunter]

I both track basics to tape and mix to tape. Tracking deck, JH24, mixing deck, Otari MTR-10 30-ips 1/4" deck. Overdubs and edits are done in Nuendo. Yes, ultimately I'd like a half-inch Ampex or Studer, but I get pretty killin' results from the gear I already have.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by idylldon

Sounds like my path exactly. I'm almost finished restoring my JH-24, and I can't wait to get it online. I've replaced all the IC sockets on the mother/daughter boards under the transport, resoldered all the Molex pins on same (a known trouble spot), and recapped the power supplies and ALL of the channel cards (don't ask how many caps I replaced). I also found a great deal on a new set of Sony amorphous heads, which ended up costing me less than a relap of the old heads would've set me back.

Steve Sadler has been of IMMENSE help during all of this, and his tech subscription service is the BEST money I've ever spent on anything audio related. Can't say enough good things about him.

All in all, I'll have just about $2500 in my machine when it's finished and wired to my Neotek. Not a bad investment at all, IMHO.

I'm currently looking for a 2-track mixdown deck as I plan to be able to have an all-analog recording chain available to my clients.

Cheers,
--
Don

Don - glad to hear she's coming along! Let me know when you finish. I may just have to take a little trip out! BTW, I told Jeff at Goldmiine that you have his old console and my old tape machine and he was floored. WE got a good laugh out of it. Small world that two friends pieces of major kit would end up together in another guys studio. Best of luck with it. BTW, for you 2 track I'd suggest an ATR. Love those machines and built to survive a nuclear hit.

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by drBill

Don - glad to hear she's coming along! Let me know when you finish. I may just have to take a little trip out!

Will do. Love to have you up to check out the studio and the tape machine! Next up is building the small machine room to house the tape decks and provide some much needed storage next to my SMALL control room.

BTW, I told Jeff at Goldmiine that you have his old console and my old tape machine and he was floored. WE got a good laugh out of it.

We traded emails a few months ago and he was going to get back to me about his memories of the board, but I haven't heard from him. I'm sure he's a busy guy and it just fell off his radar screen.

It's funny, but when I contacted him and told him I had his old Neotek, he was a bit skeptical I think. I told him that it had "Goldmine" written on it, and he didn't remember that, which isn't surprising as it's written on the inside of the wooden bottom cover, so he most likely never saw it. He did say that they had installed three Jensen pres in it, and when I responded that, yes, this one had those but I pulled them out and racked them, he was convinced it was his old board. Seems like a great guy, and it's cool to know the guy who originally ordered/owned this board. So far, I'm just the third owner of this Neotek, and I plan to keep it quite a while.

Small world that two friends pieces of major kit would end up together in another guys studio. Best of luck with it. BTW, for you 2 track I'd suggest an ATR. Love those machines and built to survive a nuclear hit.

I'm hesitant to write this as it'll trigger an painful melody for most readers, but "it's a small world after all," eh? It's weird because Neoteks were made in So. Cal, but this one ended up in Columbus, OH, and then made the trip back to So. Cal to end up on top of this mountain. Your MCI was just too close to say no to. It's not often they pop up within striking distance of my truck! Plus, I'm very appreciative of the great deal you gave me on this deck. If not for that, I wouldn't have been able to put the money into doing the maintenance and integrating it into my studio. Many thanks again, Bill, and you're welcome to come up to see the old beast anytime. I'll buy breakfast, lunch, and/or dinner!

As for the ATR, I'd love to get one as the mixdown deck for my studio. I'll keep my eye out and perhaps I can find one that falls in whatever budget I have for it when the time comes.

Cheers,
--
Don

[Drumsound]

Mike,

I think tracking to the 2" 24 (or 16)-track makes a bigger difference than just having a 2-track mixdown deck. Mixing off 2" tape always seems easier to me. I feel more comfortable with the tones as they come off the deck. Analog 2-track will add to digital tracks, but I think tracking to analog tape makes a bigger difference. Tracking to analog and then mixing to analog is my favorite way of all.

[vernier]

So-I can either buy a really nice 2" tape machine for TRACKING, or a really nice 2 track machine for MIXDOWN. Question #1 is this-which is better idea, generally?

Avoid conversions ..each conversion whimps out the Oom-Pa-Pa.

As for analog ..I'd go 1" eight-track for drums, dump to PT, continue 'till mix, then mix to half-track. If you did get a 2" 24 track, then just throw away the digital crap and be in heaven.

[stevep]

I love tracking to the 2" thumbsup

I say get the 24 track first, till you can afford a 2 track

i try to keep every session on tape that i can so the music only hits the converters one time in the final mix.

Soon i will have a 1/2" 2 track and then the Protools rig wont even be turned on except for the click track

[beruang]

Thanks slutz-

I'm going for it as soon as the right 2" pops up then, I just really wanted to verify what I thought was true.

BTW-My main useage is for live, full band tracking of anything from solo acoustic to heavy death metal rage music. The latter is really where I want the tape the most.

Time to finr my splicing block and some MRL test tapes!!

Thanks again-
Mike

[drBill]

Originally Posted by idylldon

Many thanks again, Bill, and you're welcome to come up to see the old beast anytime. I'll buy breakfast, lunch, and/or dinner!

Sounds great Don! Glad things are working out so well for you analog plan. Jeff is out of town a lot. In addition to his studio work, he's a very in demand FOH mixer and does big shows across the country (and world.)

I may be seeing him in the next couple of weeks and will remind him if I do see him.

Let me know when you've got things up and running! I'll try to figure out a time to climb the mountain.



bp

[drBill]

Originally Posted by stevep

I love tracking to the 2" thumbsup

.......

Soon i will have a 1/2" 2 track and then the Protools rig wont even be turned on except for the click track

I don't really understand that sentiment Steve. And I see it all over here on GS. Mostly by guys that have never had the joy of cracking open a new real of tape and reveling in the beautiful fragrance as it rewinds for the first time. Even though I'm really happy that Don is putting my old 2" to good use and restoring it with love and care, I still wouldn't go back to 2" from PTHD given the choice.

Believe me, I've been around since the golden analog years and the current analog tape "craze" leaves me scratching my head. Seems to me like a classic case of "vintage" must ALWAYS be better than something new. Yes I remember tape compression and the warmth, and the noise, and the wow and flutter, and the significant HF loss, and the cost, and the repair bills, and the endless alignments, and the syncronizer drift problems, and the endless waiting for a tech to show up, and the endless waiting for rewind and syncronization (although I did make a lot of money sitting and waiting. ;-), and the dropouts, and the crosstalk, and the......on and on.

I also remember the absolute feeding frenzy as the first digital machines started showing up in LA. 3M's I think? Or was it Soundstreams or ?? Hazy memory here. ;-) Everyone loved them, although they were certainly vastly inferior to even the lowest quality digital systems these days, without even the most rudimentary of ways to make an edit. Another case of a "craze" becoming bigger than life and fooling experienced pros.

My ears have been seasoned by a couple of decades of recording, composing and producing, and for my money, analog is a nice color that I like to use sometimes, but it's never going to be #1 for me again. Never. And I owned analog tape machines for 20+ years. Side by side with digital systems. Sony digital, DAT's, DA88's, ADAT's (hated them), every incarnation of PT that was offered and of course analog 2" and 1/4" 2 track. I've had the opportunity for years to have them syncronized together along with video on my lynx syncronizers. I've tracked to both simultaneously and seperately. And my thoughts......?

I can get 95+% of the analog sound I want while loosing 100% of the negatives. And unbeknownst to the throngs of gearsluts fawning after an analog 2", there are negatives. Some serious negatives. For me, the "digital" compromise is waaaaaaaaay more than worth it. For me, it was the PTHD system(s) was turned on every day and the 2" machine got turned on about once every 6 months IF it was lucky. From everything I can discern in major studios in the southland, the 2" machines are rarely getting wheeled out of storage while PT HD rules supreme. Still....I'm sad to see them go. Nostalgia I guess. Different strokes...... It's almost like it's a signal of the end of an era that I dearly loved - yet analog will never bring back the legendary magic of the music biz in LA during the 60's and 70's and 80's.

For those that want an analog machine, take a long hard look at the above paragraphs and see if you've got what it takes to keep it up and running - both tech wise and financially. It is truly a labor of love. And it comes at a cost. For me, the 4 sq ft that I reclaimed in the CRM was worth far more than the deck.

Now big analog consoles......that's a different situation!!!!! I'm never getting rid of my analog D&R's. (All 3 of them!)

Of course this is just my own opinion, and although probably unpopular on this particular thread, I know it's one that's held by a lot of very serious, very pro engineers - although certainly not all. Cheers,

Bill




Perhaps it's an engineering thing. I honestly can't figure it out. I can make PT just sing! Maybe it's just easier for younger guys on an analog machine. ???

[GearHunter]

As a more analog-leaning engineer, I can see both sides of the story. Would I give up the easy tracking and editing and processing of the DAW? No.

Do I ever want to splice tape again? Hell no!

And do I warn analog newbies that getting in to a machine is a big commitment? Yes! You can't expect to just buy some hammered old machine and have it save your life. Because nothing sounds better than an analog deck when it's tweeked to perfection, and nothing sounds worse than one that's out of whack.

But what I do, and what I see a lot of guys doing now is a best-of-both worlds thing. Track your basics on a well-calibrated 2", dump to DAW, overdub, edit, then mix out through a summer or a console back to tape.

I absolutely believe that this method beats ANY all-digital way of working, sonically. In-fact, even if I DIDN'T do any of the tracks analog, I would still insist on mixing to tape. It does a special analog smoothing and glueing that has not (yet) been equalled by anything digital, period. And I doubt there ever will be a perfect substitute.

I can't understand people who have totally abandoned analog. I guess I'm just old-school that way.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by GearHunter

I absolutely believe that this method beats ANY all-digital way of working, sonically. In-fact, even if I DIDN'T do any of the tracks analog, I would still insist on mixing to tape. It does a special analog smoothing and glueing that has not (yet) been equalled by anything digital, period. And I doubt there ever will be a perfect substitute.

I can't understand people who have totally abandoned analog. I guess I'm just old-school that way.

That's what _you_ believe and that's all good. IMO it does not "beat" working on a DAW. But that's just my opinion. I do not "insist" in mixing to tape. Sometimes I might. I think it all boils down to your skill set as an engineer, what you're comfortable with, how you hear things in your heart and mind, and what the project calls for. To say that analog is the savior of all and is absolutely the best - any place any time - is rediculous. Certainly it has it's sound. With analog, you cannot duplicate the sound of digital. Is that a drawback? Could be, might not be. Depends. I get my glue OK with what I'm currently using. Cheers,

bp

[GearHunter]

Originally Posted by drBill

That's what _you_ believe and that's all good. IMO it does not "beat" working on a DAW. But that's just my opinion. I do not "insist" in mixing to tape. Sometimes I might. I think it all boils down to your skill set as an engineer, what you're comfortable with, how you hear things in your heart and mind, and what the project calls for. To say that analog is the savior of all and is absolutely the best - any place any time - is rediculous. Certainly it has it's sound. With analog, you cannot duplicate the sound of digital. Is that a drawback? Could be, might not be. Depends. I get my glue OK with what I'm currently using. Cheers,

bp

Oh, it for sure does not beat working on a daw. And analog is not the savior absolutely. Totally agree there. And what happens is that the kids get a crappy old analog deck off EBay that has bad heads or transport problems, etc, and they are disappointed by the results. When they call me for advice, I open their eyes to the full commitment of tape, and everything that entails.

But to you I would say, next time you do a mix, do one in the box or whatever your normal digital method is, and do a second pass on to a good Studer 1/2" or even 1/4" machine, and tell me there isn't something really musical and special about the tape version of the mix.

I wonder which version you'd prefer.

[Capstan Cappy]

Yes, ultimately I'd like a half-inch Ampex or Studer, but I get pretty killin' results from the gear I already have.

i have a 4 track 1" telefunken so it is 2 track 1/2 inch, but i also have a 1/4 inch, the difference is there, the 1/4 inch sounds compact and punchy but the 1/2 inch realy opens the doors as in an even "bigger" sound with more depth and air ....i always "greet" that machine when i come in the room..i love it

[GearHunter]

i have a 4 track 1" telefunken

schwiinnnggg!

Gearslut envy!

[bjornson]

Originally Posted by idylldon

It's weird because Neoteks were made in So. Cal, but this one ended up in Columbus, OH, and then made the trip back to So. Cal to end up on top of this mountain.

Hey.....
Who moved Chicago to SO. Cal.?

[AB3]

This is sort of on topic - I have a Tascam Tsr-8 8 track 1/2 inch deck. Could I put 1/2 inch tape on it, mix down, using four tracks for one channel and the other four tracks for the other channel?

Any problems with this? (i.e. using multiple tracks for just one channel)

The deck actually has a great sound quality.

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by bjornson

Hey.....
Who moved Chicago to SO. Cal.?

Don't know quite what you mean, but Neoteks were originally made in So. California by Martinsound. Mike Stoica, owner of Sytek, bought the Neotek name and parts inventory a few years ago and he's in Chicago. He currently builds a couple models of Neoteks, but most of all the older boards were made in So. Cal.



Cheers,
--
Don

[thenoodle]

.........."This is sort of on topic - I have a Tascam Tsr-8 8 track 1/2 inch deck. Could I put 1/2 inch tape on it, mix down, using four tracks for one channel and the other four tracks for the other channel? Any problems with this? (i.e. using multiple tracks for just one channel). The deck actually has a great sound quality...."

Sure, you can do it, but the result isn't 2 track on half inch tape. The result is a bunch of little tiny 8 track paths on half inch tape.

A true 2 track half inch is....a left channel signal taking up almost a quarter inch of the tape surface (less guard band space) and a right channel signal taking up almost a quarter inch of the tape surface (less guard band space). Not the same thing as piping a stereo signal into an 8 track head that will scrunch the signals onto teeny tiny paths on the tape.