Am I wasting my money....recording guitars with Vocal Booth

tradarama · 11th February 2007, 04:50 PM

I am having a hell of a time recording good sounding distorted guitars. I have a Soldano SLO and an Elmwood 3100. Love the tones but I just get mush on tape. Here is the setup...

SM57>Germanium OR Pacifica>HEDD>Cubase4>Dynaudio BM15a

I am getting mush. Tried a Peluso "Royer 121 Clone" and that has just a lot of low end boom in it.

ANYWAY - thought I read so much about the room...I ordered a 4' by4' by 7.5' Vocal Booth (www.vocalbooth.com) under the assumption that it might give me the good room tone I need. I am just a home recording guy w/ more crazy ideas than talent....is this a waste?...ie am I missing something much more fundamental here?

Please advise. I could post clips if that would help.

Thanks

fromthesunset@y · 11th February 2007, 05:23 PM

you definitely have the right idea IMO... you gotta have a good sounding room to capture good sounds.

did you waste money? Maybe... Those boxes are $$$ (as I'm sure you know, well over $2000) and they are designed to be dead as can be, not really designed to give you a lot of 'tone'. So in that regard, and keep in mind I don't know your dimensions or restrictions, yeah, you probably coulda saved yourself a bunch of cheddar by either;
a) just acoustically treating your room with foam/gobos/etc
b) They do just offer guitar isolation boxes for much cheaper
c) you can also just build your own guitar iso boxes... http://www.amptone.com/diyisobox.htm

hope that gives you something close to an answer that you were looking for.

AlexLakis · 11th February 2007, 05:32 PM

Good post above, basically, if you don't need the "isolation," then don't bother with an iso box, they're very expensive, and wouldn't necessarily help out your tone too much.

First, I would try moving your amp around in the room and see if it records better in a certain location. This might solve a lot of your problems without spending any money! After that, you can look into treating your room. Foam won't help too much with the low end, I treated my room with 2" and 4" thick rigid fiberglass and it really cleared up the low end for me. I'd attack the corners first, and any reflection points close to where you'll be micing the cab.

allencollins · 11th February 2007, 05:37 PM

First off whats a good gtr sound? Very subjective.
Post some clips so we can hear what you got so far.

The sound your getting may be good just not what your
looking for.

I think germaniums sound like crap on dist gtr too mushy
and unfocused. Try an api.
Look at it this way, who had a good distorted gtr sound in the 60's
when germanium pres were used? I can't think of anyone

Germanium may be the problem. As important as the mic and the
pre is the speaker and the speaker cab. Did you try a different
speaker?

Post some mp3's maybe someone can help easier

moracspace · 11th February 2007, 05:38 PM

Quick suggestion.if you have the pacifica and a germ?I would add 2nd mic possibly md421 set one off axis and other straight at cone(sm57).A good room is key as many will state,but its not impossible to achieve a great sound with a OK room.Take some time and move the off axis mic around.I use this set up 99% of the time mainly rock/indi/metal.

tradarama · 11th February 2007, 05:52 PM

I will see if I can switch my order to just a cab iso box.

Tell me this...am I shortchanging my tone by trying to record at lower volumes (say 9:00 on the Master of a 100w amp). The amps really do open up at higher volumes and maybe that will get me somewhere...(thus another idea for the isolation).

For preamps I also do have a Pacifica that is super clean. I will try moving the cab (people have said get it off the ground which I will try). I'm trying to get that George Lynch type tone if that helps.

Also trying to lower the bass /mids on the amp. Also took out the NOS preamp tubes that do give a more compressed tone. I'll try another guitar tomorrow when I get my #2 rewired (it's in sick bay right now).

TheSweetener · 11th February 2007, 06:41 PM

Hi!
Yes, a nice room is great, but to be honest, I think closemicing distorted guitars is one of the applications where the room matters the least.
I got great tones in big or small rooms and even in very small booths (when I say very small, I mean very small

).
Before spending that much money on a vocal booth, just buy some gobos and try a different chain(cab, mic, pre). Go ahead!

ps: Just today I compared a few preamps to my APIs (my goto guitar pres) and again I discovered, that with every preamp I used (API, Germ, 610, ADT) i could get a decent guitar sound. The Germanium (in all settings) had alittle more growl and mids than the API which seemed to be faster and grittier. But that's what I prefer for metal guitars. I believe 5 engineers out of 10 would have picked the Germ.

johnnyjellybean · 11th February 2007, 06:47 PM

If you are recording rythm tracks, try lowering the gain on the Soldano

tradarama · 11th February 2007, 06:49 PM

I'm new and there seems to be a few choices out there. I don't need more than 2 channels. Thanks again! In times of frustration it's nice to get quick counsel. Jim

allencollins · 11th February 2007, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tradarama

I'm new and there seems to be a few choices out there. I don't need more than 2 channels. Thanks again! In times of frustration it's nice to get quick counsel. Jim

I just use a 512c in a lunch box. I'm sure they all sound good though.
Read slippermans distorted gtrs from hell. I couldn't understand it but others have
found it helpful.

Also I know all the 'Natural' type guys will disagree with me
but I get killer gtr sounds with my Groove Tubes speaker sim.

You can also mix and match miced with direct.

Pesonally I think recording in a vocal booth is a good idea, I like a tight
unambient sound to tape. You can always add verb or reamp it later
to add ambience. Where if you record it in a room you can't remove the room
later if you don't like it.

Many schools of thought but find whats right for you. Listen to 10 hard rock
cd's and not one gtr sound will be the same. Even though they may all be quality.

Just like song writing there are only two ways to get a good gtr sound,
The wrong way and then your way

raal · 11th February 2007, 07:18 PM

just one thing. if you already like what you're getting out of the amp, try putting the mic where your ears are (ie where it sounds good). unless you like hearing the amp 2 inches from the speaker, chances are the room has alot to do with the sound.

for some things ambient micing and mixing with a close mic, speaker emulator, direct (for reamping later), etc. does it, and sometimes, just putting one mic where it sounds good (could be 6 ft. away from the speakers) does it.

i frankly wouldn't go to a vocal booth to mic a gtr., specially if it's loud and distorted.

BTW germaniums with the PAD in and almost no gain can sound very 'clean' and sweet. so i disagree a bit on some things with allencollins, but i definitely agree with:

Quote:

Just like song writing there are only two ways to get a good gtr sound, the wrong way and your way.

dlmorley · 11th February 2007, 07:50 PM

I have got some heavy (and clean) guitar sounds out of my recording booth ( maybe 10 ft by 6 ft by 8 ft so pretty big) that have made me very happy

I don't crank 100 w stacks in there (although a pro junior on 12 is PRETTY loud) and with a close mic and a distant one am very satisfied. I would much rather have a fabulous room, but it doesn't disturb me. I never got my SM57 to sound good in there though. I am liking a Beyer M69 (close) and AKG 414 (distant) right now.

pineyb · 11th February 2007, 07:56 PM

Hey,

A small room can work.... I usually get better results in those rooms by using smaller amps. They have a lot less low end buildup. It depends on what you want to hear in the mix.....
The first two songs here were recorded in a 6X7 closet.....

http://www.myspace.com/thinkingevil

3 to 10 watt amps.

Fruition2k · 11th February 2007, 08:50 PM

How many different mic positions have you tried along with relocating the amp? Put some space between the mic and speaker and try the 57 off axis too....let it breathe a little...maybe try a condenser back 3 ft or so pointed at the cabinet (check for phase between both mics).
Then go through your gain structure from beginning to end.

Buying a vocal booth is a good idea if you dont have any decent isolation at home, but its not mandatory for amps....
My last project I recorded an AC30 and a Fender Deville. Took time to find the right amp volume, too loud and it had less detail, too low and no character/overdrive.
It all came together in the end but I did eq using a Q8 MM310 going in, took out some 400 or 700 and added a bit a 5k.

When I record electric guitars I also record the direct signal and the amp mic'd.
Should there be a problem with the sound use the direct track, assign it to an unbalanced out, plug it right into the amp and play the track...(be careful with track level to the amp) its basically reamping it...you can take your time and find the exact volume, mic placement, amp position, without the band standing around waiting...

Hope this helps....

raal · 11th February 2007, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineyb

The first two songs here were recorded in a 6X7 closet.....

http://www.myspace.com/thinkingevil

3 to 10 watt amps.

heard the tunes.

Dragonsoul · 11th February 2007, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineyb

Hey,

A small room can work.... I usually get better results in those rooms by using smaller amps. They have a lot less low end buildup. It depends on what you want to hear in the mix.....
The first two songs here were recorded in a 6X7 closet.....

http://www.myspace.com/thinkingevil

3 to 10 watt amps.

I really like "Love sea"

foldback · 11th February 2007, 11:15 PM

I would not buy a vocal booth unless you need isolation, you don't need that to record good guitar tone. In fact, a booth might actually loadup and sound worse, depending on how loud you're playing. I agree with the posters that the room is much less important when you're close micing a guitar amp. When micing my Marshall cabinets I often put a packing blanket over the mic and speaker to try and increase isolation a few db.

Get some Extreme Isolation headphones and listen to somebody playing through the cabinet while you position the mic. Just an inch or two difference in mic placement can make a huge difference in the recorded tone.

There's a lot of difference between various SM-57 mics, try several. Also, try a Sennheiser 421 and some LDC mics. I use my Rode NTK for micing rock guitar speakers. Sometimes I like to use the Rode, a 57, and a 421 all at once on the same Marshall cab, using API 3124 preamps and running all the mics to separate tracks. Spend some tme with the extreme isolation headphones listening to the mic positions as you place each one.

If it was easy, everybody would do it. Keep working on it, good recorded tones are awaiting you.

Best of luck with your recordings.

axeman720 · 12th February 2007, 01:37 AM

Tone is subjective and there is no right or wrong but im gonna say that when it comes to distorted tones, ANY room tone is a big no no for me.

THat being said, Your room shouldnt be to live for heavy guitar sounds, and make sure the amp is on casters or raised up so you dont lose too much bass from coupling. I dont think your wasting time or money by doing this. But, i would certainly use a different approach to achieve the tone.

I engineer mostly metal acts for labels like roadrunner, century media etc... so heavy guitar tones is a big part of my reputation, and i feel like i've been through it all and made every mistake along the way, haha. So now that im getting what i believe is killer tones, i usually keep my process pretty consistent from record to record.

Here's some things i always do, if this helps. I never use any distance mics for distorted guitars, you'll never get the punch your looking for imo. My key mics are 57, audix i5, 421, and a beyer dynamic m201. I use a combo of some or all of those mics, and the 57 is ALWAYS in the setup. I usually mic the speaker right on the grill cloth and aim the mic right where the dust cap and the speaker cone meet. I always use api and vintech pres as well, i've yet to find anything better in my opinion. I almost always use cabs with celestion vintage 30s as well. And also, what kind of guitar, pickups, string gauge and tuning are using? Maybe something is being overlooked, as all those are vital as well.

Also, id stay very far from royers for distorted guitars, alot of people rave on em but for the heavy stuff, nothing is gonna cut like 57 or something similar. I keep my royers for room mics on drums, and things like that.

sage691 · 12th February 2007, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axeman720

Tone is subjective and there is no right or wrong but im gonna say that when it comes to distorted tones, ANY room tone is a big no no for me.

THat being said, Your room shouldnt be to live for heavy guitar sounds, and make sure the amp is on casters or raised up so you dont lose too much bass from coupling. I dont think your wasting time or money by doing this. But, i would certainly use a different approach to achieve the tone.

I engineer mostly metal acts for labels like roadrunner, century media etc... so heavy guitar tones is a big part of my reputation, and i feel like i've been through it all and made every mistake along the way, haha. So now that im getting what i believe is killer tones, i usually keep my process pretty consistent from record to record.

Here's some things i always do, if this helps. I never use any distance mics for distorted guitars, you'll never get the punch your looking for imo. My key mics are 57, audix i5, 421, and a beyer dynamic m201. I use a combo of some or all of those mics, and the 57 is ALWAYS in the setup. I usually mic the speaker right on the grill cloth and aim the mic right where the dust cap and the speaker cone meet. I always use api and vintech pres as well, i've yet to find anything better in my opinion. I almost always use cabs with celestion vintage 30s as well. And also, what kind of guitar, pickups, string gauge and tuning are using? Maybe something is being overlooked, as all those are vital as well.

Also, id stay very far from royers for distorted guitars, alot of people rave on em but for the heavy stuff, nothing is gonna cut like 57 or something similar. I keep my royers for room mics on drums, and things like that.

Hey axeman,

Great post! Love alot of the Century Media stuff, so I'm sure I've heard your engineering work before.

Question: Do you use any pedals in between the performer's guitar and amp (like the TS-9 tube screamer, for example) to tighten up heavy rythym tracks ?? Or is this something that can make the sound worse ??

Also, do you get your most "cutting" and clear heavy dist. guitar tracks using smaller combo amps (like 60 watt), or do you find the bigger amps deliver more of a punch ??

Curious to hear your answers.

axeman720 · 13th February 2007, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage691

Hey axeman,

Great post! Love alot of the Century Media stuff, so I'm sure I've heard your engineering work before.

Question: Do you use any pedals in between the performer's guitar and amp (like the TS-9 tube screamer, for example) to tighten up heavy rythym tracks ?? Or is this something that can make the sound worse ??

Also, do you get your most "cutting" and clear heavy dist. guitar tracks using smaller combo amps (like 60 watt), or do you find the bigger amps deliver more of a punch ??

Curious to hear your answers.

Hey man,

Yeah i absolutely use tubescreamers, most of the time really. Alot of people say it tighttens up the amp but all it really does its compress the signal a bit more and actually smooth out the lows, so its really just keeping the amp from the farting out by evening out the lows. Dual rectifiers and marshalls see the most benefit from these imo, but i use em in front of most amps. I usually the set the pedal with the gain all the way down and level all the way up, then adjust to taste if needed.

Also, I've never really had luck getting heavy tones with a combo. I use heads ranging from 50-150 watts, through cabs with celestion vintage 30s. Some of my fave heads for the heavy stuff are 5150, Dual rec (old two channels), Bogner uberschall and ecstasy, Peavey Jsx, and engl blackmore to name a few.

Hope this helps!

Heres a few records i've done if your interested.

Bury Your Dead- Beauty and the Breakdown

Trivium- The Crusade

The Autumn offering - Embrace the Gutter

Sanctity- Road to Bloodshed - Out april 24th

Chimaira- Resurrection (Andy sneap mixed this, and reamped the final rhythm tones, but i engineered the guitar tracks on this and all but the rhythms are my tones, from what he told me)

If hope dies - Life in Ruin.

sr2000 · 13th February 2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

I always use api and vintech pres as well, i've yet to find anything better in my opinion.

Axeman720 - which api pres do you use? I've noticed a lot of people around here like the Chandler TG2 - but most people aren't tracking some of the heavier stuff. Our band is about to track our latest project in which the guitars will be somewhere in the range of Linkin Park to Breaking Benjamin. Any particular recommendation for mics/pres going for this type of guitar sound? BTW - we've already got some 57's

axeman720 · 13th February 2007, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2000

Axeman720 - which api pres do you use? I've noticed a lot of people around here like the Chandler TG2 - but most people aren't tracking some of the heavier stuff. Our band is about to track our latest project in which the guitars will be somewhere in the range of Linkin Park to Breaking Benjamin. Any particular recommendation for mics/pres going for this type of guitar sound? BTW - we've already got some 57's

I love all the api stuff but mainly use the 312 pres in our 3124. Real punchy and open.

norman_nomad · 13th February 2007, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axeman720

Also, id stay very far from royers for distorted guitars, alot of people rave on em but for the heavy stuff, nothing is gonna cut like 57 or something similar. I keep my royers for room mics on drums, and things like that.

How heavy is heavy? I use Royers on hard rock dist guitar ALL the time along with a 57 and love it...

norman_nomad · 13th February 2007, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tradarama

ANYWAY - thought I read so much about the room...I ordered a 4' by4' by 7.5' Vocal Booth (www.vocalbooth.com) under the assumption that it might give me the good room tone I need. I am just a home recording guy w/ more crazy ideas than talent....is this a waste?...ie am I missing something much more fundamental here?

Please advise. I could post clips if that would help.

Thanks

4 x 4 x 8 are some of the worst dimensions for a booth...acoustically speaking.... parallel surfaces are bad and redundant measurements or measurements which are multiples of other measurements make things even worse...

I attached a mode graph of your booth.

I personally don't like recording guitar in small booths b/c of phase cancellation, low-mid build up and over-abundance of high frequency absorption (mush)... close micing will minimize the room sound, but not eliminate it entirely!

That said, you can still work a pretty good guitar sound from a booth if you tweak your set-up.

Try putting some hardwood down for a little more lively reflection.. put up some bass traps in the booth to break up parallel surfaces.

Post a sample so we can hear what you're workin with!

Ethan Winer · 13th February 2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

4 x 4 x 8 are some of the worst dimensions for a booth...acoustically speaking.... parallel surfaces are bad and redundant measurements or measurements which are multiples of other measurements make things even worse... I attached a mod graph of your booth.

I agree. Small boxy rooms always sound boxy and "congested," for lack of a better word. As others have already said, it's always better to be in a larger room. And not just for guitar amps, but for everything. Mainly because that puts the walls farther away. Walls nearby create comb filtering, which is the cause of a boxy sound. Add to that the terrible dimensions, and now you have a boomy sound as well as a boxy sound.

You can use a small booth or room if it is seriously treated with very thick absorption. But those small vocal booths I see advertised usually sound pretty terrible IMO.

--Ethan

Flying_Dutchman · 14th February 2007, 12:42 AM

Is the room really important if you´re 0,5 feet from the speaker, if you got a cardoid mic? With figure eight, like the royer, its better, to absorb the back, which can easy be done. But is the room really this important with guitar amps?

trustyjim · 14th February 2007, 01:02 AM

I would not buy a vocal booth or even an amp isolation booth. In my experience guitar amps are one of the easiest things to record. Just throw up a 57 on it, anywhere from 0"-3" from the speaker cone. At that distance, the room sound doesn't matter much at all.

The secret is to tweak your amp, not the rest of your chain:
1. Turn down your gain knob
2. Turn down your bass knob
3. (And possibly) turn up your volume knob

Seriously. To record well, you always need less gain and less bass than you would naturally prefer just listening to the amp in the room.

To sum it all up: Don't spend any more money on this problem, just turn down the gain and bass knobs on your amp!

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11th February 2007, 04:50 PM	#1
tradarama Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 212	Am I wasting my money....recording guitars with Vocal Booth I am having a hell of a time recording good sounding distorted guitars. I have a Soldano SLO and an Elmwood 3100. Love the tones but I just get mush on tape. Here is the setup... SM57>Germanium OR Pacifica>HEDD>Cubase4>Dynaudio BM15a I am getting mush. Tried a Peluso "Royer 121 Clone" and that has just a lot of low end boom in it. ANYWAY - thought I read so much about the room...I ordered a 4' by4' by 7.5' Vocal Booth (www.vocalbooth.com) under the assumption that it might give me the good room tone I need. I am just a home recording guy w/ more crazy ideas than talent....is this a waste?...ie am I missing something much more fundamental here? Please advise. I could post clips if that would help. Thanks

11th February 2007, 05:38 PM	#5
moracspace Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: On the 2 buss Posts: 1,573	@ mics Quick suggestion.if you have the pacifica and a germ?I would add 2nd mic possibly md421 set one off axis and other straight at cone(sm57).A good room is key as many will state,but its not impossible to achieve a great sound with a OK room.Take some time and move the off axis mic around.I use this set up 99% of the time mainly rock/indi/metal. __________________ SHAKE AND BAKE That bassist couldnt be in the pocket if he was lint. (Jan 2007) Ray Gagliardino In daBag http://www.myspace.com/3sixteenband http://www.myspace.com/pick13music http://www.myspace.com/lesin http://www.myspace.com/withoutlogicband

11th February 2007, 05:52 PM	#6
tradarama Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 212	Thanks guys. It's frustrating for sure but really nice to have you all ! I will see if I can switch my order to just a cab iso box. Tell me this...am I shortchanging my tone by trying to record at lower volumes (say 9:00 on the Master of a 100w amp). The amps really do open up at higher volumes and maybe that will get me somewhere...(thus another idea for the isolation). For preamps I also do have a Pacifica that is super clean. I will try moving the cab (people have said get it off the ground which I will try). I'm trying to get that George Lynch type tone if that helps. Also trying to lower the bass /mids on the amp. Also took out the NOS preamp tubes that do give a more compressed tone. I'll try another guitar tomorrow when I get my #2 rewired (it's in sick bay right now).

11th February 2007, 06:49 PM	#9
tradarama Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 212	Which Api are you guys using? I'm new and there seems to be a few choices out there. I don't need more than 2 channels. Thanks again! In times of frustration it's nice to get quick counsel. Jim

11th February 2007, 05:23 PM	#2
fromthesunset@y Gear interested Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 23	you definitely have the right idea IMO... you gotta have a good sounding room to capture good sounds. did you waste money? Maybe... Those boxes are $$$ (as I'm sure you know, well over $2000) and they are designed to be dead as can be, not really designed to give you a lot of 'tone'. So in that regard, and keep in mind I don't know your dimensions or restrictions, yeah, you probably coulda saved yourself a bunch of cheddar by either; a) just acoustically treating your room with foam/gobos/etc b) They do just offer guitar isolation boxes for much cheaper c) you can also just build your own guitar iso boxes... http://www.amptone.com/diyisobox.htm hope that gives you something close to an answer that you were looking for.

11th February 2007, 05:32 PM	#3
AlexLakis Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Annapolis, MD/L.A. Posts: 3,612	Good post above, basically, if you don't need the "isolation," then don't bother with an iso box, they're very expensive, and wouldn't necessarily help out your tone too much. First, I would try moving your amp around in the room and see if it records better in a certain location. This might solve a lot of your problems without spending any money! After that, you can look into treating your room. Foam won't help too much with the low end, I treated my room with 2" and 4" thick rigid fiberglass and it really cleared up the low end for me. I'd attack the corners first, and any reflection points close to where you'll be micing the cab.

11th February 2007, 05:37 PM	#4
allencollins Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Singing Beach, MA Posts: 4,004	First off whats a good gtr sound? Very subjective. Post some clips so we can hear what you got so far. The sound your getting may be good just not what your looking for. I think germaniums sound like crap on dist gtr too mushy and unfocused. Try an api. Look at it this way, who had a good distorted gtr sound in the 60's when germanium pres were used? I can't think of anyone Germanium may be the problem. As important as the mic and the pre is the speaker and the speaker cab. Did you try a different speaker? Post some mp3's maybe someone can help easier

11th February 2007, 06:41 PM	#7
TheSweetener Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany / Frankfurt Posts: 969	Hi! Yes, a nice room is great, but to be honest, I think closemicing distorted guitars is one of the applications where the room matters the least. I got great tones in big or small rooms and even in very small booths (when I say very small, I mean very small ). Before spending that much money on a vocal booth, just buy some gobos and try a different chain(cab, mic, pre). Go ahead! ps: Just today I compared a few preamps to my APIs (my goto guitar pres) and again I discovered, that with every preamp I used (API, Germ, 610, ADT) i could get a decent guitar sound. The Germanium (in all settings) had alittle more growl and mids than the API which seemed to be faster and grittier. But that's what I prefer for metal guitars. I believe 5 engineers out of 10 would have picked the Germ.

11th February 2007, 06:47 PM	#8
johnnyjellybean Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montreal Posts: 857	If you are recording rythm tracks, try lowering the gain on the Soldano

11th February 2007, 07:50 PM	#12
dlmorley Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,092	I have got some heavy (and clean) guitar sounds out of my recording booth ( maybe 10 ft by 6 ft by 8 ft so pretty big) that have made me very happy I don't crank 100 w stacks in there (although a pro junior on 12 is PRETTY loud) and with a close mic and a distant one am very satisfied. I would much rather have a fabulous room, but it doesn't disturb me. I never got my SM57 to sound good in there though. I am liking a Beyer M69 (close) and AKG 414 (distant) right now. __________________ New-ish CD "Ghosts" Ursa Major Studios

11th February 2007, 07:56 PM	#13
pineyb Gear interested Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 23	Hey, A small room can work.... I usually get better results in those rooms by using smaller amps. They have a lot less low end buildup. It depends on what you want to hear in the mix..... The first two songs here were recorded in a 6X7 closet..... http://www.myspace.com/thinkingevil 3 to 10 watt amps.

11th February 2007, 08:50 PM	#14
Fruition2k Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ft.Lauderdale, Florida Posts: 286	How many different mic positions have you tried along with relocating the amp? Put some space between the mic and speaker and try the 57 off axis too....let it breathe a little...maybe try a condenser back 3 ft or so pointed at the cabinet (check for phase between both mics). Then go through your gain structure from beginning to end. Buying a vocal booth is a good idea if you dont have any decent isolation at home, but its not mandatory for amps.... My last project I recorded an AC30 and a Fender Deville. Took time to find the right amp volume, too loud and it had less detail, too low and no character/overdrive. It all came together in the end but I did eq using a Q8 MM310 going in, took out some 400 or 700 and added a bit a 5k. When I record electric guitars I also record the direct signal and the amp mic'd. Should there be a problem with the sound use the direct track, assign it to an unbalanced out, plug it right into the amp and play the track...(be careful with track level to the amp) its basically reamping it...you can take your time and find the exact volume, mic placement, amp position, without the band standing around waiting... Hope this helps.... __________________ Dean Dydek www.myspace.com/deandydek

11th February 2007, 11:15 PM	#17
foldback Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 682	I would not buy a vocal booth unless you need isolation, you don't need that to record good guitar tone. In fact, a booth might actually loadup and sound worse, depending on how loud you're playing. I agree with the posters that the room is much less important when you're close micing a guitar amp. When micing my Marshall cabinets I often put a packing blanket over the mic and speaker to try and increase isolation a few db. Get some Extreme Isolation headphones and listen to somebody playing through the cabinet while you position the mic. Just an inch or two difference in mic placement can make a huge difference in the recorded tone. There's a lot of difference between various SM-57 mics, try several. Also, try a Sennheiser 421 and some LDC mics. I use my Rode NTK for micing rock guitar speakers. Sometimes I like to use the Rode, a 57, and a 421 all at once on the same Marshall cab, using API 3124 preamps and running all the mics to separate tracks. Spend some tme with the extreme isolation headphones listening to the mic positions as you place each one. If it was easy, everybody would do it. Keep working on it, good recorded tones are awaiting you. Best of luck with your recordings.

12th February 2007, 01:37 AM	#18
axeman720 Gear Head Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: sanford FL Posts: 58	Tone is subjective and there is no right or wrong but im gonna say that when it comes to distorted tones, ANY room tone is a big no no for me. THat being said, Your room shouldnt be to live for heavy guitar sounds, and make sure the amp is on casters or raised up so you dont lose too much bass from coupling. I dont think your wasting time or money by doing this. But, i would certainly use a different approach to achieve the tone. I engineer mostly metal acts for labels like roadrunner, century media etc... so heavy guitar tones is a big part of my reputation, and i feel like i've been through it all and made every mistake along the way, haha. So now that im getting what i believe is killer tones, i usually keep my process pretty consistent from record to record. Here's some things i always do, if this helps. I never use any distance mics for distorted guitars, you'll never get the punch your looking for imo. My key mics are 57, audix i5, 421, and a beyer dynamic m201. I use a combo of some or all of those mics, and the 57 is ALWAYS in the setup. I usually mic the speaker right on the grill cloth and aim the mic right where the dust cap and the speaker cone meet. I always use api and vintech pres as well, i've yet to find anything better in my opinion. I almost always use cabs with celestion vintage 30s as well. And also, what kind of guitar, pickups, string gauge and tuning are using? Maybe something is being overlooked, as all those are vital as well. Also, id stay very far from royers for distorted guitars, alot of people rave on em but for the heavy stuff, nothing is gonna cut like 57 or something similar. I keep my royers for room mics on drums, and things like that. __________________ more updated info about the studio. www.myspace.com/audiohammer www.myspace.com/marklewissound

14th February 2007, 12:42 AM	#26
Flying_Dutchman Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 970	Is the room really important if you´re 0,5 feet from the speaker, if you got a cardoid mic? With figure eight, like the royer, its better, to absorb the back, which can easy be done. But is the room really this important with guitar amps?

14th February 2007, 01:02 AM	#27
trustyjim Gear nut Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 136	Just tweak the knobs on your amp I would not buy a vocal booth or even an amp isolation booth. In my experience guitar amps are one of the easiest things to record. Just throw up a 57 on it, anywhere from 0"-3" from the speaker cone. At that distance, the room sound doesn't matter much at all. The secret is to tweak your amp, not the rest of your chain: 1. Turn down your gain knob 2. Turn down your bass knob 3. (And possibly) turn up your volume knob Seriously. To record well, you always need less gain and less bass than you would naturally prefer just listening to the amp in the room. To sum it all up: Don't spend any more money on this problem, just turn down the gain and bass knobs on your amp!