High End Session Players

[ron@fishertheba]

Depends on the project.

[bigbone]

some of the top studio players can charge as much as 1,000 $ per song
even more,
And if the like your song maybe less.....
it's never the same.

[meagsy]

A major label project. No reading, all the composed section are done.
They'd be improvising a 2 - 3 minute solo for a b-side remix.

[cajonezzz]

If they are interested in the material, and it's an intown session, and they are just blowing solos-- probably about 2k a day. maybe 3k.

those guys could do a heck of a lot of damage in a day.

[Mike Caffrey]

It depends on who's paying, what it's for and how many tracks. I know a bunch of guys at that level who are a little more session oriented as opposed to primarily being artists as the guys you've listed are, who done session for $300 when that was in the ball park of being scale. More likey you're going to hear double scale rates which are in the $750/song range.

If you're hiring a name aritst and goingot makret it in in a way that their name is help selling the album, their rate is going to reflect a bit more profit sharing for what their name is responsible for generating.

[Roland]

With people like Brandon Marsalis and John Scofield, you might find they have contractual limitations as too what recording they can do, also at that level often they limit their recording activity to their immediate peers and high profile "guest" appearances, so even for £5,000 a track they ain't likely to play.

Session players, even those that are quite well known often are just available for scale, double scale or per track rates depending on what you are asking them too do. I've worked with many well known players (not "stars") who worked for fairly standard rates.

All the above doesn't mean that such and such great session player is going to play on your local band slop and make you sound like star's, as usual money isn't everything and the Marsalis brothers are, I'm sure, extremely picky about what projects they do...

Regards


Roland

[A440]

www.sessionplayers.com

www.sessionsonline.co.uk

[wwittman]

also, hiring a top notch player to just PLAY something your wrote or arrange isn't going to cost you as much as asking for his creative input.

by improvising a SOLO, you're really asking for a guest spot, not just a studio player performance.

tha can cost as much as the player's market value says its worth.
As much as he cares to ask for.

[RCM - Ronan]

I work with famous session guys and not famous session guys, and prices are all over the place, but if there is the budget for it, hiring great players is sooooooooo worth the expense.

[meagsy]

Thanks for the responses guys, very helpful & much appreciated
now to see if i can get the label to forkout the extra yen...
back to lurking for me for the time being!
cheers & thanks

[Jules]

Originally Posted by wwittman

also, hiring a top notch player to just PLAY something your wrote or arrange isn't going to cost you as much as asking for his creative input.

That's quite a provocative post!

I wonder what you mean by it?

I have hired plenty of top sessions musicians, if at any time I got the impression that they were somehow. 'on strike creatively' unless they were paid a higher fee.. they would be thrown out the door quicker than you could say 'lets break for lunch'!

I hire them for their playing chops & creativity. Their time on the session is spent conspiring with the artist and production team to make the very best of the session.

Is this a rose tinted view of session work?

Are there really two tiers of session fees?

1) Play the shit you are told and leave
2) play on the session and try to help the project = more $$$

I've never looked at it that way. i have regared sessions muzos as all having a co-producer switch on their back. The default position being 'on' - if their input is unwelcome, or regarded as 'off target' / 'unrealistic for the project' (like a suggestion to hire an orchestra for real strings when there is no budget to!) it can be switched (tactfully) "off" and the muzo can continue, simply as a hired player only... The trick of course being to be open minded to that last production suggestion that is fantastic, when all previous suggestions have been not so good...

[ejsongs]

i think the is a balance where in some respects i agree wih jules (usually i do) and some i don't. Since i live in both worlds as a hired session musician and a producer who hires others i understand both sides. you definately get what you pay for.

as far as the cost it really depends on the market and genre.

for example i can charge my normal rates when dealing with major labels in US and uK which can be 3X scale or higher where as doing a record for the the philipines or an indie is out of the the question. I know of some guys who get 2-3K and other names who are just 2x scale. it all depends. I also find fees tend to be higher for r&B/hip hop stuff because of how that genre works and the production fees are higher as well. on the pop side it is a little more difficult. on a jazz project i would imagine it would be even less becuase of the size of the budget.

most session players are there to do a good job and make your song as hot as they can, however there is balance between playing and re writing a song and a fine line you have to dance across with your creative input. what can creatively shut a session player down is a producer who doesn't know what he/she wants. so if you turn the input switch off as jules suggested then be decisive about it and know what you are going for. another thing is to realize the strengths of the player you are using and use the right guy for the right job. Just as you wouldn't hire dave pensado or Manny Marroquin to sound like Tom or Chris Lord Algee, don't call john Scofield and ask him to sound like Eddie Van Halen or Branford to sound like Kenny G. Even though they all probably can go there it can be a drag for them to do so. I am blessed enough to be someone of a music chameleon of sorts but people call me usually to do what i do and they trust me. the other thing that I somewhat disagree with is the hired help mentality

if you treat a session player or mix engineer as the "hired help" then that is exactly what you will get, especially when you are dealing with us high priced guys. it can get to the point where it just isn't worth it worth it as there is at least one producer that i will God willing never work for again. If you make me or any creative player, mixer or mixer or singer feel that you value their contribution then we will go to the nth degree to make it right for you...just don't take advantage of it. but if you cry broke and we cut you a deal...and then you end up keeping us there for 4+ hours for a session that should have only taken 1 hr and you are indecisve and make us jump through hoop after hoop...anyone would shut down at a certain point.

ej

[Roland]

I understand where Jules is comming from, but I can also appreciate what William is saying. If you hire say a session guitarist to lay down a rythm track, yes you expect him to put some creative input in terms of vibe, style, even a few interesting licks, but ultimately he's still going to be playing the chart, for me that's session rate, double rate, or track rate (if he's a particularly in demand player/named session player).

If you hire a sax player to add a screaming solo on the M8 then it's a totally negotiable fee, quite possibly with a points arrangement. For me at that point it's more than just being a creative player, there is an element of composition/originality to what they are providing, potentially if you don't pay correctly there and the song then goes on to become a mega hit or even better an evergreen you are likely to end up in court years later. To site a couple of examples, the keyboard player from Procol Harum recently had a judge rule in his favour over the organ part to Whiter Shade of Pale, and a very good friend of mine who played the 2 minute saxophone solo on the Hazel O'Conner hit Will You, for which he recieves half the writting royalty.

On the other hand, Herbie Flowers, who among his claims to fame played the bass on hundreds of hit records such as Mancini's Pink Panther Theme, Jeff Waynes War of the Worlds and a load of T-Rex and Bowie stuff only got paid a standard session fee for his distinctive bass line on Lou Reed's Walk on the Wild Side.

Regards to all



Roland

[Greg Curtis]

I'll hire a guy for X amount to come in and just read down written out parts or lead charts for 3 hours. That's an easy gig. But if i know I'll need some creative input or improv, the rate will go up because that is a much more demanding gig.

As a musician I'll demand more $$ and more credits if I am blowing a solo, versus playing written-out melody lines.

As far as rates for top-tier guys go, there are AFM rates and their are cash rates. Depends on the player and how well you know them.

Greg

.

[londontown]

I know a great violinist who's known for his improv, who's been hired before for things where literally he went it and wrote the music on the session...a particularly vile composer was doing a thing in Toronto and brought him in for a three hour session at standard rates. He went it and there was no music stand or charts or anything...and no guide track. The guy just said - go for it, just play. So - being a professional sort, he just played some stuff, and after a while, he was let out.

Three weeks later, hey presto, his playing is on this commercial on TV which played tonnes. He made next to nothing, the composer probably collected a five figure some in royalties. Literally just one edited 30 second segment of him making it up on the spot.

So there's definitely something to be said for paying more for stuff that goes beyond the chart, but it's such a grey area...that's what contractors are for...to protect the musicians from being screwed over. So always worth going for a contractor, no matter how small the gig.

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

I'll hire a guy for X amount to come in and just read down written out parts or lead charts for 3 hours. That's an easy gig. But if i know I'll need some creative input or improv, the rate will go up because that is a much more demanding gig.

As a musician I'll demand more $$ and more credits if I am blowing a solo, versus playing written-out melody lines.

As far as rates for top-tier guys go, there are AFM rates and their are cash rates. Depends on the player and how well you know them.

Greg

.

[Jim Williams]

Back in the 80's in LA it was usually double or triple scale for the best players. With the demise of the recording industry, many of these cats will play for less, sometimes for a comp on the record or an exchange for ?

If you are in an area with lots of players, the costs can be adjusted as many will play for less than you might think.

I used to trade work or recording time for a great player, some were friends and came by just to help out or they believed in the artist.

These were great players that performed on records and on tour with great artists, not the "guns for hire" types of players that never delived the goods. A lack of creative involvement does seperate these guns from the great players. It's also good to be friends with them first. That way it's personal and they feel like they are helping out a friend = better performances.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

I'll hire a guy for X amount to come in and just read down written out parts or lead charts for 3 hours. That's an easy gig. But if i know I'll need some creative input or improv, the rate will go up because that is a much more demanding gig.

As a musician I'll demand more $$ and more credits if I am blowing a solo, versus playing written-out melody lines.

As far as rates for top-tier guys go, there are AFM rates and their are cash rates. Depends on the player and how well you know them.

Greg

.

That soudns to me like the difference between hiring a craftsman and an artist.

When you're hring someone to read a part, it's sort of an anyone can do that situtation.

When you're hring them for creative input , you're hiring them for somehtign that's uniquely them and now they have leverage since no one else can do their thing.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Jules

That's quite a provocative post!

I wonder what you mean by it?

I have hired plenty of top sessions musicians, if at any time I got the impression that they were somehow. 'on strike creatively' unless they were paid a higher fee.. they would be thrown out the door quicker than you could say 'lets break for lunch'!

I hire them for their playing chops & creativity. Their time on the session is spent conspiring with the artist and production team to make the very best of the session.

Is this a rose tinted view of session work?

Are there really two tiers of session fees?

1) Play the shit you are told and leave
2) play on the session and try to help the project = more $$$

I've never looked at it that way. i have regared sessions muzos as all having a co-producer switch on their back. The default position being 'on' - if their input is unwelcome, or regarded as 'off target' / 'unrealistic for the project' (like a suggestion to hire an orchestra for real strings when there is no budget to!) it can be switched (tactfully) "off" and the muzo can continue, simply as a hired player only... The trick of course being to be open minded to that last production suggestion that is fantastic, when all previous suggestions have been not so good...

In my expereince it's all about negotiation. Players ask first, "what's it for" or "what label is it for?" to asses the budget. Then they asses expectations, "Am I reading or creating". This gives them some idea of how big the client imagines the job to be. That gives a clue to what their expecting to pay and also a clue as to how long it might take.

In my expereince, the best players work out the best rate the can get in advance and then when they get to the session the give 100% that they can give in every aspect. once they've gotten the maximum rate, they'll be creative even if that wasn't expected.

Creative vs mechanical is for negotiating fees.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

In my expereince it's all about negotiation. Players ask first, "what's it for" or "what label is it for?" to asses the budget. Then they asses expectations, "Am I reading or creating". This gives them some idea of how big the client imagines the job to be. That gives a clue to what their expecting to pay and also a clue as to how long it might take.

In my expereince, the best players work out the best rate the can get in advance and then when they get to the session the give 100% that they can give in every aspect. once they've gotten the maximum rate, they'll be creative even if that wasn't expected.

Creative vs mechanical is for negotiating fees.

I couldn't agree with you more!

Even from my perspective when quoting for work, I work out the value of the job, the cost of doing the job and the customers budget, negotiate the price and the terms, then put the finances out of mind and get on with doing the best work possible. Obviously there are times where circumstances change eg. the client decides they want to do more or try something different. I find if you discuss this as soon as you realise this might need to happen, and as long as you are fair with the client (not like the businesses that look to catch the clients on loads of overpriced extra's) most are reasonable people, even those that aren't you get a chance to head them off at the pass.

Regards


Roland

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

That sounds to me like the difference between hiring a craftsman and an artist.

When you're hiring someone to read a part, it's sort of an anyone can do that situation.

When you're hiring them for creative input , you're hiring them for something that's uniquely them; and now they have leverage since no one else can do their thing.

Not really. I guess I'm thinking of film scoring, where the composer MUST have exactly what is one the page (for obvious reasons), vs commercial music where creative input may trounce the intended path.

Greg

.

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by londontown

So there's definitely something to be said for paying more for stuff that goes beyond the chart, but it's such a grey area...that's what contractors are for...to protect the musicians from being screwed over. So always worth going for a contractor, no matter how small the gig.

So true!

I'm lucky to know a *great* young contractor here in L.A., Noah Gladstone.


Greg

.

[synthetic]

I had dinner with a former LA triple-scale player in the 80s. He said that when you hired the top guys back then, it was a team effort to try to get a hit song. So Greg Phillenganes might write a new intro, Steve Lukather might come up with a cool lick, etc. and they wouldn't be asking for writers credit. That's why you were paying the big bucks, for moments of genius like that. These days, said my dinner guest, guys ask for 50% of the writers share to run a Pro Tools rig. And you don't often get a bunch of guys like that in the same room anymore.

[Jules]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

In my expereince it's all about negotiation. Players...... .......asses expectations, "Am I reading or creating".

If you are scratching your chin too long over that you aren't hired.. by me anyway..(but I don't think the session muso community will be shaking in their boots at my opinion.. )

Originally Posted by synthetic

I had dinner with a former LA triple-scale player in the 80s. He said that when you hired the top guys back then, it was a team effort to try to get a hit song. So Greg Phillenganes might write a new intro, Steve Lukather might come up with a cool lick, etc. and they wouldn't be asking for writers credit. That's why you were paying the big bucks, for moments of genius like that. These days, said my dinner guest, guys ask for 50% of the writers share to run a Pro Tools rig. And you don't often get a bunch of guys like that in the same room anymore.

That's more like it... helping the song be a hit, that's the spirit..

But perhaps thats all dead now that PT jockeys can build a whole tune out of one hooky riff and session muzo's that lay something cool down, can be sweating right after playing it... in case.. in case, in case it was REALLY..... good..

OK fair enough, but how depressing to be looking over your shoulder while doing a session, in case you are TOO good...

John Lennon "Imagine" sessions with Phil Spector.. and Yoko Ono in the control room.

Yoko- whispering to John Lennon (referring to the dream team of session muso's out in the live area) "they are improvising, tell them to stop improvising"
John Lennon (pressing the talkback button) "Yeah guys! Stop improvising so much!"

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Jules

If you are scratching your chin too long over that you aren't hired.. by me anyway..(but I don't think the session muso community will be shaking in their boots at my opinion.. )

You don't ask any questions when people call you and ask how much to do a session?

If it wasn't a guy who I hired regularly, and he didn't ask those types of questions, it's an instant clue that he doesn't have a ton of expereince.

My first call guys have a whole list of questions. At this point I just give them a run down because I know what they want to know and each guy has different particulars of what he cares about.

[meagsy]

wow great to see the debate rages on, nice!
the label turned down the request,
...."john who? & which marsalias?......and you want 5k....ah no, but nice try"......

[Roland]

Originally Posted by londontown

I know a great violinist who's known for his improv, who's been hired before for things where literally he went it and wrote the music on the session...a particularly vile composer was doing a thing in Toronto and brought him in for a three hour session at standard rates. He went it and there was no music stand or charts or anything...and no guide track. The guy just said - go for it, just play. So - being a professional sort, he just played some stuff, and after a while, he was let out.

Three weeks later, hey presto, his playing is on this commercial on TV which played tonnes. He made next to nothing, the composer probably collected a five figure some in royalties. Literally just one edited 30 second segment of him making it up on the spot.

So there's definitely something to be said for paying more for stuff that goes beyond the chart, but it's such a grey area...that's what contractors are for...to protect the musicians from being screwed over. So always worth going for a contractor, no matter how small the gig.

In the UK, almost certainly, anyone with any savvy would put that in court. This reitterates what I was talking about in my earlier post. Playing something inspired, original, interesting with a good groove is to be expected from any session player you hire, after all that's what they do. Expecting them to write chunks of the song because of other issues isn't a session fee job.

Regards


Roland