Reference mixes

[NathanC]

I don't consider myself a high end slut, but I'm hoping for some useful responses from high end sluts.

What do you guys/girls use as a reference when mixing?

When I'm mixing I always use commercially released, mastered songs as a reference. The problem is that those mixes are already mastered. I don't know what my mixes should sound like unmastered. I'm always trying to come as close to the mastered reference mixes as I can, but should I really?

My main struggle: How do I handle dynamics?

How do I know when there are too much dynamics in my mix? Sometimes I like the snare to be loud in the mix, or maybe I like the chorus to be louder than the verse. My fear is that things get distorted or lose transients when being squased/compressed at mastering.

How do I know I'm on the right track, even though my mixes don't sound like mastered commercial releases (yet)?

[SoZo]

I just try to listen to LOTS of music on my monitors...


I will listen to Steely Dan, Van Halen, the Beatles, some Jazz like Pat Matheny, Miles Davis, Country like Merle Haggard..., and some heavier music but good recordings like AC-DC Black in Black, Motley Crew girls girls girls, Lincoln Park, where I know amazing engineers recorded the music ...

I try to listen to clean recordings, the mastering engineer can get it loud like many modern recordings if thats what you want.

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by NathanC

What do you guys/girls use as a reference when mixing?

If it is music I am not familiar with, then I try to get a good example of that type of music.

But in the main, I do not use anything - perhaps I should, who knows!

Originally Posted by NathanC

My main struggle: How do I handle dynamics?

How do I know when there are too much dynamics in my mix?

When it pumps and looses all impact and feel. If you mean compressors etc., then use less than you think. They really tire the ear out quickly and make people not want to hear your music.

The trite answer is 'experience' I am sorry to say. Try different mixes, some with and some without. Also try grouping things together, rather than shoving tons of compression onto each and every intrument. When in doubt, go without!

Originally Posted by NathanC

How do I know I'm on the right track, even though my mixes don't sound like mastered commercial releases (yet)?

When you hear a commercial release and think "Even I could do better than that!"

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by SoZo

I just try to listen to LOTS of music on my monitors...
I try to listen to clean recordings, the mastering engineer can get it loud like many modern recordings if thats what you want.

To get it loud isn't really what I want. It's just something I know that must happen to make a song "radio ready".

With that in mind, I'm not certain what a mix "should" sound like before is gets squashed. I don't want distortion, and I don't want to lose too much attack tutt

My basic question is: what are things to keep in mind when mixing to avoid too much damage when your mix is being squashed at mastering?

[NathanC]

Thanks for your reply, Highlander thumbsup

Originally Posted by The Byre

When it pumps and looses all impact and feel. If you mean compressors etc., then use less than you think. They really tire the ear out quickly and make people not want to hear your music.

The trite answer is 'experience' I am sorry to say. Try different mixes, some with and some without. Also try grouping things together, rather than shoving tons of compression onto each and every intrument. When in doubt, go without!

This is very clear to me. However, what happens at mastering stage when there are a lot of dynamics going on in your mix because you've used compressors sparingly? Will the squashing at mastering ruin your mix entirely? Well, actually I know it will. And I hate it.

Originally Posted by The Byre

When you hear a commercial release and think "Even I could do better than that!"

This doesn't answer my question, but I totally agree and hope it will happen a lot in the future!

[The Byre]

I understand your frustration and there really is no simple answer. It depends on the type of music and, well, just about everything.

Let me put it this way, a friend once asked me what he should do to improve his studio. Better mics? Better pres? Bigger DAW? Accoustical treatment? Better instruments? Better outboard? Vintage dynamics?

My very glib answer (I'm good at those!) was "Yes!"

In other words, it is all the many things that go together to make something sound fantastic. Each sound and each part of a sound has to be just as good as you can make it. If you think that way, then the mix-master-compression issue will almost vannish all by itself!

Let's start with a kick drum sound. Before you even play around with compressors and other toys, have you tuned the skin? Is the room right? (Get the drummer to take all that rubbish out of the kick drum, blankets, pillows, dead cats, gaffa-tape and so on) Is the drummer happy with the way he is sitting?

Put the whole kit on a nice and resonant drum riser. Put some wooden reflectors behind him. Get some room mics up.

Now listen to the kick (without the dead cat inside the shell!) Boom! Boom! Wow! It sounds great! Now capture that sound! Pick a mic for the flavour of the music. Maybe AKG D12 for vintage. Audix D6 for modern.

POSITION THE MIC. D12 in the middle - D6 to one side at the outer shell. Put headphones on and move the mic untill it has the right sound.

Now you can do the Bruce Swedien thing and throw a duvet over the kick shell with mic inside. It really works!

That is ONE of the bits of the mix, now move on to the others. Stereo guitars, tuned toms, perfect vocals.

You see, mastering is just making the music sound nicer. Compression is not compulsary. When I am mastering, then I seldom use compression, unless a compressed sound is asked for or is required. There is no law that states "Thou shallt use compression!"

Less is more! A little compression can alter your sound a great deal. A great deal of compression can end up spoiling it.

[HEADROOM]

dead cats

No cat lives long in a bassdrum.....

[xmostynx]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Now you can do the Bruce Swedien thing and throw a duvet over the kick shell with mic inside. It really works!

Just an on looker on this post..but???

when you say duvet? is that this?!?

http://www.overstock.com/?PAGE=CATLI...000026774&fp=f

thats the "sheet" you put over the down comforter right?
i'm never heard the word "duvet" before this is why i'm asking!

[The Byre]

Well, the English call it that (with a silent 't'). A sort of a bedding quilt thing.

Don't forget a riser! Nice and 'boomy'!

[SoZo]

Originally Posted by The Byre

I understand your frustration and there really is no simple answer. It depends on the type of music and, well, just about everything.

Let me put it this way, a friend once asked me what he should do to improve his studio. Better mics? Better pres? Bigger DAW? Accoustical treatment? Better instruments? Better outboard? Vintage dynamics?

My very glib answer (I'm good at those!) was "Yes!"

In other words, it is all the many things that go together to make something sound fantastic. Each sound and each part of a sound has to be just as good as you can make it. If you think that way, then the mix-master-compression issue will almost vannish all by itself!

Let's start with a kick drum sound. Before you even play around with compressors and other toys, have you tuned the skin? Is the room right? (Get the drummer to take all that rubbish out of the kick drum, blankets, pillows, dead cats, gaffa-tape and so on) Is the drummer happy with the way he is sitting?

Put the whole kit on a nice and resonant drum riser. Put some wooden reflectors behind him. Get some room mics up.

Now listen to the kick (without the dead cat inside the shell!) Boom! Boom! Wow! It sounds great! Now capture that sound! Pick a mic for the flavour of the music. Maybe AKG D12 for vintage. Audix D6 for modern.

POSITION THE MIC. D12 in the middle - D6 to one side at the outer shell. Put headphones on and move the mic untill it has the right sound.

Now you can do the Bruce Swedien thing and throw a duvet over the kick shell with mic inside. It really works!

That is ONE of the bits of the mix, now move on to the others. Stereo guitars, tuned toms, perfect vocals.

You see, mastering is just making the music sound nicer. Compression is not compulsary. When I am mastering, then I seldom use compression, unless a compressed sound is asked for or is required. There is no law that states "Thou shallt use compression!"

Less is more! A little compression can alter your sound a great deal. A great deal of compression can end up spoiling it.

glib Great word!


Oh.. I dont use compression when tracking, Thats a good way to keep options when mixing for dynamics!

[NathanC]

Byre, I understand what you're saying and it all makes sense.

The current project I'm mixing is pop-rock. I hate it, but I know it has to be compressed a lot at mastering so it can compete in the loudness war. The final product should sound radio friendly.

Today I made a quick premix and compressed it seriously to see what would happen, and found the snare hits lost attack amongst other not-so-nice side effects. Then I made a new mix with the snare a little more back in the mix and found out that worked a lot better. Without the squashing I thought the snare sounded great when it was a little louder in the mix. Obviously I should anticipate the effects of mastering, and not just mix as I think it sounds best.

In that same song the verse sounded just fine when squashed, but the chorus was distorted. So maybe I shouldn't make the chorus louder than the verse, because of what happens when the loudness doctor does his thing?

I'm just wondering what other commercial releases sounded like before they were mastered. I think that's a better reference than using already mastered songs as a reference.

By the way, beautiful studio you have!

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by NathanC

Byre, I understand what you're saying and it all makes sense.

The current project I'm mixing is pop-rock. I hate it, but I know it has to be compressed a lot at mastering so it can compete in the loudness war. The final product should sound radio friendly.!

No! The more you 'squish' the mix, the less radio-friendly it will be!

The radio stations all use masses of compression (there was a tread on this a couple of weeks back - do a search on radio compression here) so if you use masses of compression, then your song will be QUIETER.

If you want to win the loudness wars, do so with dynamic range and stereo image. Your mix will be set to exactly the same volume as everybody else's, so there is 100% no point in trying to crank up the volume by applying loads on L2 or some other 'squish' programme. The station will bugger up your mix quite enough - you do not have to add to the misery!

So now you are going to ask "Well, how the F do I make the whole thing louder, if I can't use a compressor?"

Listen to the masters! Listen to Dr Dre's recording of 'Don't Cha!' by the Pussy Cat Dolls, or Bruce Swedien's recording of Michael Jackson's Billy Jean.

They sound louder than the others. And both use little or no compression. Why?

Both record real intruments. Both record in real stereo. Both go to enourmous extremes to get a perfect drum sound. Both always move some air. Read and re-read the posts by Bruce Swedien on 'Sonic Personality' that should still be lurking on this forum.

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by The Byre

No! The more you 'squish' the mix, the less radio-friendly it will be!

The radio stations all use masses of compression (there was a tread on this a couple of weeks back - do a search on radio compression here) so if you use masses of compression, then your song will be QUIETER.

If you want to win the loudness wars, do so with dynamic range and stereo image. Your mix will be set to exactly the same volume as everybody else's, so there is 100% no point in trying to crank up the volume by applying loads on L2 or some other 'squish' programme. The station will bugger up your mix quite enough - you do not have to add to the misery!

I've heard this more often. Let's assume this is true (I actually believe it's true).

I have this same problem with some radio commercials I made. The relation between sounds is sometimes completely lost when I hear them on the radio.

How am I going to anticipate on what the radio (or mastering engineer) will do to my mixes? Use a compressor on the 2 buss when I'm mixing just to know what will happen to my mix when it is being compressed?

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Listen to the masters! Listen to Bruce Swedien's recording of Michael Jackson's Billy Jean.

Thanks for the tip! I did a search and I'm overwhelmed by the information this man gave in his posts.

[vernier]

I don't know what my mixes should sound like unmastered.

Make it how you like, just don't over compress, but if you do, still don't worry about it.

[seb37000]

I would not worry to much about what mastering will do to your mix as long as you go to a real mastering place, not some bozo with a few plug ins and small mix monitors. If you just want to see what smashing will do to your mix just use an L2 but this will only show you the worst side of mastering, but still it can be a good test.
I would just concentrate on making the mix as good as possible and if you take a commercial record as reference dont try to match level, try too macth balance and if you like the dynamic on that record, match the dynamic to, then leave it to the mastering guy for levels and thats it, if thats all he has to do you'll make freinds real quick.

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by seb37000

try too match balance and if you like the dynamic on that record, match the dynamic to, then leave it to the mastering guy for levels and thats it, if thats all he has to do you'll make freinds real quick.

That's my point. How do I match balance and dynamics of an already mastered and compressed song? I don't think I should, because that would mean compressing the ..... out of it.

Well, I guess I'll just see what happens if I mix with an L2 on the 2 buss every now and then. Just to see what will happen to the balance and transients.

[Led]

I tend to find older track before the loudness wars (what was it like before the loudness wars grandpa?) but something that is sometimes overlooked is that if the track you reference is in another key, your bottom end will be in a different place. As far as dynamics, the best thing is to mix tracks and get them mastered and then listen to the difference (easier said than done) so you get an idea of how it will affect the reverb levels and the mids of your track. A low fi way would be to L2 or L4 or whatever we are up to you're rough mixes and compare. And.....in Australia we call a duvet a "doonah".
Bewdy cobber

[seb37000]

Well, I guess I'll just see what happens if I mix with an L2 on the 2 buss every now and then. Just to see what will happen to the balance and transients.

NO, no tutt Dont mix with the L2 on 2 buss, put it on at the end ( whene you finished the mix )just to see what it does, dont give the M.E a song with L2 on it, let him take care of that.
Just mix the song how you like and make it sound good to you, after that its the M.e's problem.

[mjlaudio]

I made a cd of a couple of songs i have mixed before mastering that came out good....I also have a couple of mixes that bands i have worked with have given me when they have mixed with other mixers. That usually works for me.

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by seb37000

NO, no tutt Dont mix with the L2 on 2 buss, put it on at the end ( whene you finished the mix )just to see what it does, dont give the M.E a song with L2 on it, let him take care of that.
Just mix the song how you like and make it sound good to you, after that its the M.e's problem.

Putting it on just to see what is does was exactly my idea. Not to leave it in the mix tutt

Is this common? Do fellow gearslutz mix with some kind of compression on the 2 buss just to see what happens (while not actually using the compression in the end)?

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by mjlaudio

I made a cd of a couple of songs i have mixed before mastering that came out good.

I wish I had stuff like that from (commercially released) productions I like.

[denne]

Don't know if this is of any help, but ...

1. Mix it as good as you can with NO compression on the masterfader

2. let it go

I'm always shocked first, what mastering does and always need some weeks or months to get used to the "new" sound after mastering. It's not because mastering alters the sound that much, (client: "what? that's what we paid xxxx bucks for?") it's because I'm hypersensitive after mixing, knowing every nuance from top to bottom. I have to let it go and trust the ME ... if the ME shows some respect, I like the mastered version after some time. If the ME sucks ... well then the master will suck forever.

good luck

[NathanC]

Originally Posted by denne

it's because I'm hypersensitive after mixing, knowing every nuance from top to bottom.

Me too!

[jonnyclueless]

Originally Posted by NathanC

To get it loud isn't really what I want. It's just something I know that must happen to make a song "radio ready".

With that in mind, I'm not certain what a mix "should" sound like before is gets squashed. I don't want distortion, and I don't want to lose too much attack tutt

My basic question is: what are things to keep in mind when mixing to avoid too much damage when your mix is being squashed at mastering?

I mix while monitoring through a mastering chain. Works every time. No more mixes coming back with the kick and snare chopped off, etc. And I know that after all the smashing the mix will still hold up. Plus clients often need to hear a loud version so the cane A/B with other stuff.

I know someone recently who lost a gig because the client accidentally heard the mix un-boosted (level wise) and compared it to the demo which was printed much louder. Of course the final mix not being as loud sounded week back to back. Had the client listened to the version that was a few db louder, he would have realized the final mix blew away the demo. And we're talking about one of the biggest record labels here.

So if all you care about is being pure and a ludite, then don't care about anything other than what you hear and how it is in your place. But if you are in a business, then I would worry about what happens after it leaves your hands.

[AllAboutTone]

i use NO compression tracking, however i do use some on post vocals, other then that i use a 2044 accross the buss at a -1db reduction is about all i need, great finished product.
I would suggest a compessor insert left and right, this forms glue to the mix, use a Class A compressor and it will work well. Don't use something cheap, if so just don't use it.
It takes everything to make a project the best, great preamps, mics, monitors and a touch of compression go a long way and get you to the finish line.